I have this response

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Postby Stryke » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:12 pm

I think youve missed the entire point of the system GEM .

the S.P.E.A.R is a complete system not one move .

and it takes all the various flinches into accont from primal through to a active aggressive response . It`s amethod of programming how to respond from abad situation , not a method for pre-empting anything .

If LEO lived in a permamnent state of hyper vigilince they would burn out , and i`m sure many do .

the fact is the Brother did a small startle and attacked , it doesnt really mean anything more than that .

I dont understand this new argument that seems to be along the lines of you cant train to react to a stimulus ...

the only option is to naturally fllinch backwards .... and

I disagree that backwards is always the natural flinch , I think it`s more natural to cover and coil and compress
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Postby Van Canna » Fri Nov 11, 2005 11:14 pm

What you write is confusing. I have been at Tony's seminars at Gary's dojo and he did not make this distinction about
Leos.

He was teaching these concepts and demonstrating them as general concepts applicable to all martial artists, regardless of styles.

But maybe i did not get it right.

A good way is to pose the question directly to Tony and see.
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I've attended Tony's

Postby gmattson » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:56 am

seminar at my camp and have viewed most of his earlier videos.

I completely understand that what Tony is teaching is an excellent and extensive program. What I was attempting to clarify is the statement made earlier, seemingly geared at having us believe that the "spear" is something that will work for the average person against a surprise attack. Yes, some people will be capable of "flinching" with a forward wedge-like movement, but my experiences training "average" people, continues to be, that average people, when shocked/surprised, move away from the danger. Some freeze, some raise their arms, some collapse. This is a far cry from the LEO or military group, suited-up and storming into a crowd or situation, where I believe, much of the training is focused.

Yes, civilians can benefit from the training and I'm sure the startled/flinch response can be reduced. However, It isn't in this setting that a fighting system is shown at its most effective capabilities.

My point, is that the "spear" technique is far more predictable, when used by someone who "knows" he/she is in a fight.

The Uechi community has been using this technique, as long as they have been doing Seisan. It is a very effective move against any many kinds of attacks. . . all moving forward in the bunkai, very similar to the wedge movements of Tony's system and others who use this method. Its one of my favorite moves.
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Postby Stryke » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:04 am

What drills do you do to train the spear George , do you have any Uechi flavoured material for us folks who are fans of Uechi and the spear ?
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We train using

Postby gmattson » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:14 am

the bunkai... varying the attacks, positions and intensity of the attacks. We also use Tony's padded equipment to allow fairly strong attacks and counters.

The 'wedge' stops the attacker and potentially can hurt him. Where our cross-training comes in handy is the ways the person can be subdued.

Jim Maloney has come up with many variations to the bunkai and any sensei worth his salt should be able to create hundreds of interesting drills.

Check out his "new wave" uechi III, where he works many interesting variations of the "cooperative" drills while at the Hut. I think he also used that "wedge" many times in his seminar.
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oh well

Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:24 am

How many times have we been through this?

Lets see
A reflex response, like a flinch, is hard-wired and bypasses the conscious brain. This is the blink of a flinch or pulling the fingers away from a hot stove. Complex behaviors are never reflexes. Reflexes can't be trained away.

Then there are "semi hard wired" responses. If I throw a flurry of strikes at your face, your hands will go up to protect, palm out and fingers open.

This level of response you can train.

The closer your training matches the "natural" response, the easier it will be to train eg, Tony Blauer's SPEAR will adapt and be learned faster than a shuto block, side step kick combination.



After many, many years of training in jujutsu, when someone tried surprising me with a "straight blast" attack- a flurry of chain punches- I launched into him with an elbow lead.


Ha..who is this guy?

RA Miller, that is :wink:

And where does all this come from?

Go here and find out_

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... 3ce1f7d8e6
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:20 am

Dr Cobb
The easiest way for me to explain this is have you visualize what happens when you are suddenly startled and flinch. What does your body do? If your flinch is really strong, you will assume a kind of standing "fetal" position, right?

Your arms will bend and flex, your head moves to protect your eyes, your shoulders will raise, your abs will tighten, your knees will bend, etc. In other words, your body will flex forward and curl up tight to protect all of the important stuff.

Amazingly, all of this happens unconsciously. It's a beautifully designed reflexive survival system that you don't have to think about ? it just happens.

We want to train in a way that makes the body work at its peak of efficiency... which means a focus not just on proper technique, but also with the integration of posture and breathing into every movement. It's a very different way to train for most people, and the rapid results we witness and hear about daily are simply amazing.
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:21 am

Darren Laur
Understand that although the "low road" reflexive motor responses cannot be changed, they can be "molded" to fit a combative motor skill technique that are useable during a spontaneous attack. I use the Somatic Reflex Potentiation response, which I call "penetrate and dominate," in all my programs. Tony Blauer uses the flinch response in his SPEAR system. Richard Dimitri also incorporates the flinch in his training at Senshido.
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:22 am

Blauer
[b]In time I learned how to trigger my cognitive brain as I flinched. It allowed me to move in towards the threat sooner.

Again the behavioral paradox is that when we are in danger, we want to move away; but the tactical directive is to MOVE IN. for those on a path of self-discovery or looking for a realistic survival system , it is imperative to appreciate and incorporate the flinch mechanism.

It takes courage because you need to consider the conflict of contemporary training methods.

When you are taught to step back you are actually moving into the trajectory of the attack because the attacker is always a step ahead of you in an ambush type assault. The real fight is on when you are ambushed, not when you are the sniper.
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:24 am

Blauer
WHAT ABOUT CREATING SPACE?
“In an ambush, always defend yourself from where you are. There is no need to re-position. Right in front of your weapons is a target. Take it and think CW/CT—Closest Weapon/Closest Target.

Stepping back in a close quarter fight is tactically inferior to moving forward.
The S.P.E.A.R. SYSTEM™ provides the forward movement and momentum to take control of an opponent_ Always move towards and through the opponent.

The flinch response generally lowers and widens the center of balance to increase mobility, the arms are placed into defensive positions that cover centerline (and vitally important) targets, the eyes focus intently on the threat, the breath is exhaled quickly which is a component of both absorbing shock from an incoming blow and delivering a blow with power and the fingers are webbed and spread for additional coverage and protection.
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Blauer

Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:26 am

Our effort to develop attack specific responses within scenario specific simulations is why the sucker punch drill was developed.

I wanted to create a close quarters isolation drill to address the sudden attack.

I was explaining the process to a researcher in Texas, and he called it a genetically inspired self-defense system.

He said I was wiring into the tactics that the human survival system wants to do , whereas other martial arts are based on learning and muscle memory.

With the sucker punch drill. I was trying to use a physical tactic when I had no knowledge of where my opponent’s attack would originate.

Because the sequential relationship of the martial arts has no basis in reality, I got hit. That’s because most tactics are based on anticipation of a specific attack.

As I flinched my shoulder would come up and my hands would protect my face. Or I’d duck.

I realized that flinch speed , which is borne of your survival system picking up the danger, is faster than cognitive speed. The body is genetically wired to survive.

We slow it down by saying “ my style says I should do this”

Most martial arts training is done through imitation, and most of it is codified. The paradox is that we are taught to maintain or create distance and then engage the other person in calculated movements.
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Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 12, 2005 1:02 pm

And all this was posted not to necessarily disagree with you, Bill or George_ some of your arguments on the flinch response are indeed noteworthy_ but to point out the belief of other professionals that such a response can be modified through dedicated training.

Will it work for us?
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Postby Stryke » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:19 pm

When you are taught to step back you are actually moving into the trajectory of the attack because the attacker is always a step ahead of you in an ambush type assault. The real fight is on when you are ambushed, not when you are the sniper.




good stuff Van .
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Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:56 am

As soon as someone starts mentioning backing up, I have to call foul. It's been done already in this thread - a tactic used to obfuscate when the discussion got frustrating.

Please don't lump George and I; we can speak independently, thank you very much. I defend George's back, but only to the extent that he's allowed to express his point of view without the peanut gallery getting out of hand. It's the loyalty thing, you know... ;)

If anyone wants to address my point of views here, please quote me from within the thread.

Anyhoo...

I've worked with Rory at camp on his own patented entry moves. Two come up the middle, and one is a bit of a side step. This is one of the three - a move that Rory calls "Dracula's cape." Look familiar? ;)

Image

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Postby Bill Glasheen » Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:19 am

Keeping with the thread (rather than it degenerating to old territory), I found these passages in Grossman's On Combat on my plane flight to Phoenix today. You might find this interesting. And this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, folks.

Autopilot: "You Honestly Don't Know You're Doing It"

Dr. Artwohl's research found that 74 percent of the officers involved in a deadly force encounter acted on autopilot. In other words the actions of three out of four officers in combat were done without conscious thought.

My coauthor Loren Christensen is a career police officer and world-class martial arts instructor, with many best-selling books and video tapes on the fighting arts. He says that many veteran martial artists, highly motivated individuals who have spent 30 or 40 years of their lives ingraining fighting techniques through hundreds of thousands of repetitions, often find after an explosive self-defense situation that they have no recall of what they did. Although the attacker has been reduced to a whimpering bloody pile, the martial artists cannot recall what they did because their responses were purely automatic.

One police officer told me of his powerful autopilot experience:

Let me tell you how powerful this autopilot business is. I came around the corner of this guy's van; I'm just going to tell him to move it. I didn't know he'd already killed one person. You honestly don't know you're doing it. All of a sudden a gun appears in his hand. Then a hole appears in the guy's chest and the guy drops. My first thought was, "Whoa, somebody shot him for me!" I actually looked over my shoulder to see who shot this guy. Then I realized I had my gun in my hand and it was me who had shot him.


Is it possible to see a weapon pointed at you, draw your weapon and shoot without conscious thought? Not only is it possible, in this case it is highly desireable. Of course, his training must be state-of-the-art so that he knows instantly that the threat is indeed a gun, and not a wallet or a cell phone.


Please understand that this is not gross motor movement, or even a motion that looks like a flinch. But it would have been interesting to see how he blended his flinch into the draw-and-fire motion. 8)

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