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 Post subject: Gates
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:01 am 
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"Closed Gate" is it simply closed and why? "Gates" to the soul via eyes is at times mentioned in Yoga, therefore close the gate by practice in front of wall. "No gate" as mentioned by Bob Campbell is another.
My interest in "Gates" is perked, I`m all ears and eyes wanting to know or better yet understand what "Gates" actually are in Uechi and encourage anyone with any ideas to please post.

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Last edited by CANDANeh on Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:05 pm 
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I'm sure Jim will have some things to say about this from a W/C point of view.

I believe I posted a thread on this awhile back using some info from SPM to illustrate. I'll see what I can bump up.

But basically gate theory is a way of dividing the body into quadrants and talking about what kinds of ways you use your limbs to control incoming attacks to those quadrants and then launch attacks at your opponent's different quadrants.

So the closed gate posture at the end of Sanchin "closes" the upper part of the middle gates to the lower part of the upper gates (from the floating ribs to the throat) Then fists and arms cover the centerline (best line of attack) and the elbows cover the floating ribs. So you have closed off the means of access to those vulnerable positions.

-Dana

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:09 pm 
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Here it is:

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.p ... ntis#41307

So you can see from the lines where they draw their various "gates".

some groups divide the body up differently - but I think the centerline approach makes sense with respect to Uechi.

I used to email back and forth quite a bit with the guy who ran that site and I have one of his videos. I now wish I had bought them all. He moved to china for a few years and since he's been back he's been less accessible to the public.

The slicing and sweeping with the arms are the key ways we control the upper and middle gates in Uechi...we just don't seem to talk about it that way.

Dana

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:17 pm 
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And this page as well.

http://www.bambootemple.com/dcforum/DCForumID21/1.html

The root pages don't work - so you can only see this stuff by using the links. It could disappear at any moment... :?

-Dana

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:38 pm 
Great thread .


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 Post subject: Thanks Dana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:38 pm 
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Thank you and will look it over closer when I can close the gates to my room (children seem to ingested loads of sugar 8O)
I never made the "gate" connection in the way you discribe, and suprissed students haven`t asked me about what "closed gate" means. I would have asked back in 70`s but was a shy young man then...now hard to believe, how we change eh.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:08 am 
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To: Leo

Re: The meaning of Gates
Closed, Open or Otherwise

An Open Gate Message;

Hello Leo

I have asked my most trusted friend and Martial Art colleague, Jay Salhanick, to pass this note onto to you.....

In Western parlance & speak, we all know what a Gate is and we all know what it means when the words, closed, open, ajar or no gate
refers too......

In Chinese Martial Arts ( Not Yoga ) the term Gate means almost the same and I have never read any where ( in English or Chinese text ) that the term in the Martial Art sense, means a gate between body, mind or spirit.

Historical facts teach us that the word GATE was added to the Chinese Martial Art terminology in the mid 1800's

The left hand is closed into a fist which represents the full Moon

The right hand is open in almost a san chin palm position
( but absolutely nothing to do with our san chin or Uechi Ryu ) and this hand position is know as the Sun..... the fingers representing the rays of the Sun

The White Lotus Society, a very secretive group of Martial Art fanatics, who formed themselves at the very core of the Boxer Rebellion, a revolt by the people of China against the Western Trade Legations that had armed Western Troops protecting their Trade and power base in China......

I could write about this for a week but let me bring this to a conclusion to answer your question, Leo about closed gate.

The White Lotus Society had a secret hand gesture-posture-salute when greeting other members of the Society...... not that different than our Free Masons who also have secretive hand signs to denote rank and affiliations.

In this salute, the hands are formed into the respective postures
( closed - left hand into a fist & right hand in an open palm )

The are drawn together and touch ( in the Chinese Martial Art salute, the right palm never closes or wraps around the left fist as we do in Uechi San Chin )

When the hands touch, these words spoke are......

When the Sun and Moon come together, we shall close the gates of China ( meaning..... force out all Western Foreigners )......

What happens Leo when the moon and sun come together ??

You have an eclipses, a black out, darkness..... DEATH - Death to the Foreign invaders

Today, watch any Southern Chinese Martial Art Style, except for Wu Shu
( era prior to 1949 ) since this hand posture was out-lawed by the PRC-Chinese Government as being a throw back to the White Lotus Society and similar groups..... better known today as Triads.....

Watch the opening salute of these southern styles and you will very clearly see the Moon & Sun - Closed Gate position being performed.

In closing Leo, I hope this has helped you better understand how the terms and postures of " The Gates " came to be.

Strength & Honor

No Gate

Bob Campbell
from
Hong Kong & the PRC - China

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:43 am 
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JaySal wrote:
To: Leo


In closing Leo, I hope this has helped you better understand how the terms and postures of " The Gates " came to be.

Strength & Honor

No Gate

Bob Campbell
from
Hong Kong & the PRC - China


Please JaySal express my sincere thank you to Sensei Campbell. It was an honor to have him send such a wonderful reply to my question. I remember him well when he taught a seminar in Nova Scotia way to long ago. My son has calligraphy he did (translated his name in 1991) hanging on his wall.
He has and always will have my highest respect.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2005 9:37 pm 
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JaySal thanks for forwarding the message and Sensei Campbell, thanks for offering your insight on my little forum.

I'd be curious about other "representational" postures in uechi. For example I've heard that the "jump back" posture in Seisan is not only similar to a host of postures in weapons kata but is also similar to the Okinawan god of martial arts...who happens to closely resemble tradition southern chinese temple guardians.

Without the back story to our forms I doubt we'll ever really know which postures were meant for application, which for decoration, and which are meant for both.

Any and all thoughts are welcome.

cheers,
Dana

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Depends on what one means by gates..

Chinese Martial Arts talk about gates, like in doors.. Most systems divide the body up into six or four zones, much like playing zones in basketball vs. man on man all attacks one may receive must enter through one of the gates or doors. The purpose of this zoning is to simply perception of an incoming attack.. Instead of thinking that one must protect a dozen or more targets on one's person, with 6 gate theory all these targets are limited to six. Normally the location of the attack with respect to the centerline or mother line will also be a determining factor in how one responds..

Many CMA train the student to view the opponent and his attack as a "ball of energy" and to analyze that energy in terms of the gates.. In WCK one does not normally protect a gate by "blocking" with some kind of sweeping motion, such as a wauke or other side to side motion, rather a gate is close by PLACING some part of our WCK structure, similar to say sanchin structure, in the gate under attack. This is like "closing the door" or gate so that the incoming attack cannot enter. This is different from a cover in that a cover blocks and must absorb the energy of the attack, where as, structure, like in sanchin structure that is held in front of the body acts to deflect or dissolve the incoming attack simply by being placed in the "gate" that is being attacked, albeit with a forward flexible kind of energy, not tension.

Closing a door or gate could be simply a “passive placement” but even then the body will drive into the center of the opponent in order to destroy structure, it can also be used with an opposite hand attack, or it could actually take the form of a strike that moves through that gate deflecting the incoming, in order to clear the line/path as it counter attacks at the same time. In order for strikes to occupy a gate while also hitting it is useful to fire the strike from the center and down the center line, moving from offline into the center offers less leverage, and will be misaligned wrt a centerline clearing and targeting "fill".

Depending on which gate needs to be filled the position of the weapon and the elbow will adjust to fill the gate; The elbow often acts as an extra hand to clear the gate while the strike moves without delay to the center or target of the opponent, which then opens and maintains that line for a continuous barrage.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:09 am 
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Hello Dana.

Below is from Bob Campbell.


************************
DEAR DANA

We are always pleased to receive queries regarding Martial Arts.... I hope and trust that everyone understands my views are not always the same as others and I never intend to state what I say is fact.

However, having lived and worked in Asia for over 3 decades, I spent a great deal of time researching historical records in order to temper my views to better judge folklore from documented facts in many forms of
Martial Arts.

Let's share this journey together......

There is no God perse of Okinawa Martial Arts but there are Temple Guardians which most assume are Gods. The are not, they are Guardians of the Gates.

The Seisan Jump comes from the White Crane Style and was intended to be a maneuver to prevent one from having a foot sweep strike
applied against the forward leg by raising the leg in a crane like posture.

The jump back maneuver is for the most part an Okinawa creation and is often referred to as a defensive jump away movement from a weapon
attack however this is not a very effective move if the a given person with any sort of weapon use or knowledge would wield the weapon properly.

Dana, may I most politely disagree with you when you say you doubt " we " will ever really know what postures were meant for what applications.

I know exactly where all our postures came from what root style/s in China they are derived.

I have dozens of applications for each in every movement, in part or whole used in Uechi Ryu and none of my applications can be found in
Uechi Bonki's as they are taught today in most Uechi Ryu Dojo's.

Where as the story goes Uechi Ryu stems from the Tiger, Crane and Dragon styles I beg to differ.....

Okinawa Uechi Ryu has almost no movements at all
from the Dragon Style.

Our Tiger movements have been so altered from their root Chinese cousins that many of the applications now taught in Uechi karate are not as effective as they could be....... !

From the White Crane Style, Uechi has a few token hand positions at best and here too they differ greatly in Uechi from their Chinese cousin

San Chin stance or the hour glass stance as it is referred to in the Bart Mei Style ( White Eyebrow ) is one of the very few southern Chinese Styles to use such a stance. The shoken strike or Phoenix Eye strike ( Bart Mei Style ) is used totally differently then the manner it is taught today in Uechi Ryu.....

In Uechi Ryu, some say, you need to practice the shoken for many many years before you can use it correctly. In Bart Mei, the practioneer can use
this strike with full force and power within weeks of learning the proper application of the Phoenix Eye strike and there is no damage or trauma suffered by the practioneer hands or fingers when using this strike as it is taught in Bart Mei Style.

Uechi also has roots from the 5 Ancestor Style and may I say at this juncture...... I am and shall ever remain a Uechi Ryu practioneer and I love
the style now more than ever being able to viewvarious aspects and movements from a more Chinese application / view point.

In closing Dana, Thank You for your questions and be sure to share with us the new things you learn along the long road of study in Karate-Do

Strength and Honor

Bob Campbell
Hong Kong

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:37 pm 
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It seems to me that those who engage in profound research - be it physically, emotionally, or academically - reap the rewards of their work.

Quote:
I know exactly where all our postures came from what root style/s in China they are derived.


Yahoo! I'd wondered since I started hearing stories of the gift of your "stealing eyes" from my teacher if any of the postures had been modified so much that they became unrecognizable compared to other forms. So that's good news.

I recently saw this video posted on a kung-fu forum. The poster claimed it to be hung boxing from the 1950's.

http://www.siulam.info/charris/films/tweeman.wmv

I was struck by the pattern of the bridge movements at the open and how they reminded me of some of Uechi's rudimentary partner exercises.

I also see a relationship between the five-ancestor fist tradition and what I've seen of the Southern Mantis (SPM) I've posted on other threads. Both seem to come from the same root. The SPM I have videos of uses the sanchin stance as well as the shoken fist (both the as a strike with the tip and as a rolling to the point/grinding weapon.)

There's much to be digested from what's been written.

And Jay-san - thanks again for posting Mr. Campbell's responses.

Quote:
be sure to share with us the new things you learn along the long road of study in Karate-Do


One of the best things I've learned so far is that Uechi - whatever it is as a system or a style - is a wonderful way to connect with folks and explore the world through many different eyes.

...and obviously there is still quite a bit of exploring for me to do...

a thousand thanks,
Dana

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 Post subject: The book...
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:12 pm 
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I heard rumours that Campbell sensei has a book in the works,
I think it would sell quite well.
Knowledge that shouldn`t be lost.
This is one thread I never regreted starting.

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 Post subject: Re: The book...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:05 pm 
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CANDANeh wrote:
I heard rumours that Campbell sensei has a book in the works.


I think it would be sold out before the ink was dry...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:06 pm 
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Can you imagine? That's be just wonderful wonderful.

Is it still in the works?

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