Warrior "mindset"...

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gmattson
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Warrior "mindset"...

Post by gmattson »

is a double edged sword!
"Each year, so many cops kill themselves across America that the number of suicides sometimes exceeds those who die in the line of duty."
is the lead-off paragraph on the front page of the Orlando Sentinel.
"But the true numbers may never be known, because no agency tracks police suicides nationwide and few speak openly about the deaths."
"Some law-enforcement leaders view the suicides as an epidemic . . "
and unfortunately, many of these suicides involve the killing of others first.

"Individuals who perceive themselves as problem solvers often have great difficulty admitting that they have problems of their own.", said Tom Gillan of the Central Florida Police Stress Unit., "As a result, some officers who feel that they can no longer tolerate psychological pain choose to solve the problem themselves through suicide rather than by asking others for help."

"Perception of weakness" was noted in the article as a major reason these officers shunned treatment! They see themselves as tough . . . which doesn't leave room for the weakness associated with their job.

"Attacking the stigma" "Untreated depression, post traumatic stress and a culture that ridicules seeking help as weakness - major causes of police suicide - strike every age, gender, race, rank and religion."

An here is why I'm posting excerpts of the article here:

"Another issue is failing to train officers how to leave the skills needed on the job at work."

"To be successful as a police officer, he or she must function as a warrior in combat. Without that mind-set, not only are officers likely to fail, they may not survive on the street," said Douglas, a former police officer. "The problem is that officers frequently do not separate the street from home."

I've posted quite a few threads pertaining to this subject and the heavily emphasized "Warrior Mindset" many of us appear to be pushing on these forums, as being a potentially dangerous obsession for average citizens.

Its bad enough that our military and LEO must be subjected to this job-related stress. I felt that we, as martial art teachers, should be careful not to be introducing this unnecessary stress on our students without the benefit of professional counseling to offset this "Warrior mindset" some are preaching must be part of our lives.

Not a subject many of us will want to address. However, anyone who thinks this problem is not a serious issue for some dojo who run their programs like they are training Navy Seals for a homeland invasion, should spend a little time researching the subject.
GEM
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

We have been through this discussion so many times before, yet it does not sink in.
potentially dangerous obsession for average citizens
Correct_ obsession results from two things:

1.Underlying emotional weakness in some individuals.

2. The wrong method of teaching survival concepts in students of the martial arts.


In ‘wholesome’ individuals properly guided by an intelligent teacher_ Mindset means nothing more than an internalized_ well learned_ fixed mental attitude or disposition that predetermines a person's responses to and interpretations of situations. No more, no less.

You learn it, and then you store it away in the recesses of the mind, and it will ‘mushin’ to the surface as needed.
The reason why people with a license to carry guns, feel so much more at ease with themselves after attending LFI training with Mas Ayoob.

In recent years many have written about the power of the mind and how our attitude and
mental preparation can influence many outcomes in our life.

Reaction is a process, the threat must be perceived, analyzed, a plan formulated, and
finally the plan instituted. Without proper preparation the mind will stall when faced with a
sudden danger. In order to prevent a stall steps must be taken to prepare the mind for a
proper reaction.
What the above means, and what our forums have attempted to delineate, is that the mind learns to prepare for a proper reaction through education of emotional, physical, legal and financial _ potential pitfalls, and then ‘stores it away’ in the recesses of the mind…so when the time comes…any action/reaction will surface in accordance with ‘informed decisions’ components. Here is your ‘Mushin’ _

In all cases of ‘obsession’ _ you will find severe underlying personality flaws, something we, as teachers, should be on the lookout for _ and gently steer to therapeutic help.

It has nothing to do with not being able to live with a self-imposed ‘tough image’ _ at least not in the case of civilians _ smart enough to know better.

I have investigated dozens of suicide cases on the job. They are extremely complex to analyze and draw conclusions from.



Not a subject many of us will want to address. However, anyone who thinks this problem is not a serious issue for some dojo who run their programs like they are training Navy Seals for a homeland invasion should spend a little time researching the subject.
I agree. The difference between a good dojo, smart sensei, or just a deluded ‘hack’.

Recall the story posted by Allen Moulton about a group of newly made ‘black belts’ walking down the combat zone and starting a fight to prove to themselves something, with some of them ending up stabbed. :(
Van
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RA Miller
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Post by RA Miller »

I feel compelled to get into this one. I don't think the mindset is the problem with officer suicide, at least not the work mindset.

Dr. Gilmartin in "Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement" does a good job of describing the effect of bouncing between a high adrenaline work state and a low adrenaline home state day after day, year after year. Your mood swings from engaged to bored, the time that should be spent with your family is spent either "decompressing" which all too often means sitting in front of the TV or introspecting without sharing, which can both be depressing and distancing from your support network.

In my opinion, the biggest factor in officer suicide, divorce and alcoholism is all the same- you spend the day dealing with intensely emotional situations, some horrible. You don't particularly like having them in your head so you work hard not to share them with the people you love and the people who love you. It doesn't take long for not sharing the most formative moments of your adult life to distance you. Soon you start to believe that you are different and alone in the world. You do big and dangerous things that are invisible even, too often, to your own supervisors.

You wonder if any of it matters.

This isn't the "warrior mindset". In that moment when you are helping the victim or stopping the violence, when you are doing what you are born to do there is no doubt, no depression. It's only when you decide you can't share those moments that there is a negative effect as simple as loneliness.

Rory
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Van Canna
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Post by Van Canna »

Great post, Rory, thanks.

I think,from your information,that we should not be making unfounded comments and assumptions on such a serious issue.

But we see this crop up now and then. This should be the purview of 'experts'_
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A well respected friend

Post by Van Canna »

Don Rearic
There are some people, especially children, who are predisposed to suicide and if they listen to some piece of music and have a strange reaction through some sort of symbiotic relationship they see or feel with the lyrics or music or artist, that is not the fault of the music.


"Communications without intelligence is noise ; Intelligence without communications is irrelevant. " ~ Former Commandant of the United States Marine Corps, Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC
http://www.donrearic.com/main.html


BTW George you should extend an invitation to Don Rearic to join the turlet. He would knock some sense into it in a commanding way. :wink:
Van
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

Thanks for the insight Rory.
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Post by paul giella »

Thanks for bringing this article to our attention, Sensei. We do not often talk about the down side of our preparedness, but it is potentially there.
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Post by thumper_wabbit_dammit »

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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Are we not missing something here? Rory, I'd like to engage you in this directly, because you know exactly where I am coming from.

To start with, I think the things Rory says are actually somewhat generic. Truth be told, you are describing my wife, and she hasn't been in a lethal encounter (of the fighting kind) in her life. She does however spend long days with lives in her hand as a health care practitioner, and comes home with the same need to decompress. The difference between me and the next person is I understand why wife wants just to curl up in bed at home and ignore the world for long periods of time. It's part of the whole of what she does and how she chooses to handle it. But you know what? You don't find legions of physicians choosing to kill themselves.

I think there may also be another factor here. In his book On Killing, Grossman spends at least half of his material discussing the human aversion to face-to-face confrontation, violence, and killing. We can train to overcome that aversion the way we train to eat hot sauce. But the built-in programming that is part of the survival of the species means ultimately the brain can rebel. There's a small fraction of humans out there who are sociopathic, highly compartmentalized, or just driven like sheepdogs. IMO the vast majority of "normal people" are going to accumulate self-generated stress to the point that they either need specialized means to decompress or they will be classic PTSD victims.

What say you, Rory?

Paul?

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Grossman

Post by David Talley »

Grossman also says that even though suicide is the #1 killer of cops, the stats show that suicide rate of cops is slightly lower then the general public of the same age and sex.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Interesting... I have Grossman's On Combat with me. It mentions the National Police Suicide Foundation statistic which shows LEO suicide to be 2 to 3 times that of line-of-duty deaths (page 354). But I don't have his quote of age-sex-adjusted suicides being less than the general population. Could you possibly give me the source? (It isn't in On Combat that I can find)

Thanks.

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Bulletproof mind

Post by David Talley »

That comes from the disk set "Bulletproof Mind". Disk 2 I think. If you have the book "On Combat" it is almost word for word from the lecture on disk. I was able to see him speak a few months ago. His lecture is pretty much the same as what I have on disk. Still very moving and he signed my book. Super nice guy.
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Post by RA Miller »

Officers lose far more lives to car wrecks than they do to murder or suicide.

Hmmm. Bill I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. Let me break down the discussion as I see it so far.

GEM presented an article on Police Suicide. He seemed to tie it to the "warrior mentality" that some practitioners seek to cultivate.

I have issues with the concept of the warrior mentality in most cases. To me a warrior makes war as a profession. I deal with violence for money. IT IS A JOB. No one ever talks about the "Bus Driver mentality" or the "High School Teacher mentality". The more I can make it like a job, treat it like a job, the safer everyone is. Do you want an airline pilot doing a job, preferably one he's done thousands of times or cultivating an esoteric attitude and artificial mental state to fly the plane? I don't want the plane ride to be an adventure.

However I am aware that right or wrong, people who don't deal with violence regularly have a fantasy ideal of what people who do deal with it are like. Damn, Bill, you've drunk with me and Roy Bedard and many others, we have some cool stories and maybe some different priorities but there's nothing special about our minds. We've just done something enough that our hands don't shake anymore. You do open heart surgery! THAT's an awesome responsibility and skill.

But you're Bill, and in my mind you will always be 'Bill', not the doctor who holds lives in the palm of his hands EVERY DAY. But you could be, and I can guess how uncomfortable that would make you.

Enough digression. The point of my post was that the mindset of doing the job has never been the problem. Some people commit suicide at work, but no one commits suicide while they are actually working. No one commits suicide while they are exercising. As a friend told me one time on a late graveyard shift when we were openly discussing the taste of gun oil, "Nobody kills themselves because of what happened, they kill themselves because they thought about it too much."

The active mindset, any active mindset, is proof against suicide. It's the introspection. You think about the event and think about what it means and then convince yourself that no one else can understand and then you convince yourself that you are alone. Then it's a short step to putting the end of your gun in your mouth, "just to see what it feels like."

It is generic. Anyone who can convince themselves that they are alone can go there (and that is easy for teenagers and they are extremely at risk). And some of the articles Thumper quoted indicate that health care professionals are more at risk than LEOs. Others said laborers and the unemployed.

Anyway, I'm not sure I believe that stress is a bad thing. Whether it developes into PTSD will have a lot to do with how experience is cognitively assimilated, and that is easier in a culture which has a functional system for dealing with it. The old paradigm of not wanting to talk about it and toughing it out has really changed in the LEO community. Peer support and peer counseling and having protocols has been huge. The LEOs now have, in most areas a functional way to deal with the stress. Not for everybody, but for most.

Rory
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

This is an excellent thread. A thank you to all contributing. :D
Stryke

Post by Stryke »

I`m pretty sure theres been situations that I could of died in if not for warrior mindset ....

I`m not concerned with suicide personally . Why the assumption theres a link ?

why is PTSD associated with being proactive ? rather than associated with the event ?

I can see an argumaent with PTSD making one Hypervigilant , but I think taking it in the other direction is weak conjecture at the best .
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