Schools now biased towards girls?

[MikeK]

I've wondered about this. A lot of boy things have been down right banned in schools.

THIS STORY HAS BEEN FORMATTED FOR EASY PRINTING

Doug Anglin, a 17-year-old senior at Milton High School. (Dominic Chavez/ Globe Staff)
Schoolboy's bias suit
Argues system is favoring girls

By Tracy Jan, Globe Staff | January 26, 2006

At Milton High School, girls outnumber boys by almost 2 to 1 on the honor roll. In Advanced Placement classes, almost 60 percent of the students are female.

It's not that girls are smarter than boys, said Doug Anglin, a 17-year-old senior at the high school.

Girls are outperforming boys because the school system favors them, said Anglin, who has filed a federal civil rights complaint contending that his school discriminates against boys.

Among Anglin's allegations: Girls face fewer restrictions from teachers, like being able to wander the hallways without passes, and girls are rewarded for abiding by the rules, while boys' more rebellious ways are punished.

Grading on homework, which sometimes includes points for decorating a notebook, also favor girls, according to Anglin's complaint, filed last month with the US Department of Education's Office for Civil Rights.

''The system is designed to the disadvantage of males," Anglin said. ''From the elementary level, they establish a philosophy that if you sit down, follow orders, and listen to what they say, you'll do well and get good grades. Men naturally rebel against this."

An international group that examines equity in education called the complaint of discrimination against boys rare. And Milton school officials denied that girls get better treatment than boys. But the female student body president, Kelli Little, voiced support for Anglin's views.

Anglin, a soccer and baseball player who wants to go to the College of the Holy Cross, said he brought the complaint in hope that the Education Department would issue national guidelines on how to boost boys' academic achievement.

Research has found that boys nationwide are increasingly falling behind girls, especially in reading and writing, and that they are more likely to be suspended, according to a 2005 report by the Educational Equity Center of the Academy for Educational Development, an international nonprofit group with headquarters in Washington, D.C.

While school officials said their goal is to help all students improve, the Milton High principal, John Drottar, , suggested in an interview that there may be ways to reach out to underachieving boys. Drottar said the high school plans to reinstitute a mentoring program that will pair low-achieving students with teachers.

While it will not specifically recruit male students, boys are likely to make up a large portion of the students served, he said.

''We're aware of it," Drottar said. ''We're looking into it. On a school basis, does that mean we should look at each classroom and see if we have to encourage boys a little more than girls now? Yeah, it probably does."

Anglin -- whose complaint was written by his father, who is a lawyer in Boston -- is looking for broader changes. He says that teachers must change their attitudes toward boys and look past boys' poor work habits or rule-breaking to find ways to encourage them academically.

Without such changes, many boys now give up, he said.

The school should also recruit more male teachers to better motivate boys, Anglin said. At the high school, 64 percent of the teachers are women, and 36 percent are men, according to the school system.

Anglin's complaint has set off a buzz among the 1,000 students at the school. Little, the student body president, said she disagrees with students who think Anglin is chauvinistic.

Of the 22 students in her honors Spanish class, only one is a boy, said Little, a senior. She also said that teachers rarely ask her for a hall pass if she is not in class, while they routinely question boys walking behind her.

As for assignments, she said, one teacher expects students to type up class notes and decorate their notebooks with glitter and feathers.

''You can't expect a boy to buy pink paper and frills to decorate their notebooks," Little said.

Larry O'Connor, another Milton High senior who supports Anglin, said teachers should do more to encourage freshmen boys to do well in school, because many lack motivation.

O'Connor, who is taking two honors classes and one Advanced Placement class, said he is surrounded by a sea of girls in his classes.

He said he ended up taking high-level courses because an English teacher had pulled him aside in his freshman year and had told him that he had the potential to succeed, and that the school needed more male scholars.

While some of Anglin's concerns appear to be supported by school statistics and anecdotal evidence, school officials say some of the solutions that he offers are far-fetched.

For example, he proposes that the high school give students credit for playing sports, not just for art and drama courses. He also urges that students be allowed to take classes on a pass/fail basis to encourage more boys to enroll in advanced classes without risking their grade point average. He also wants the school to abolish its community service requirement, saying it's another burden that will just set off resistance from boys, who may skip it and fail to graduate as a result.

School official said they cannot give credit for sports and are unlikely to allow students to take courses without grades.

Superintendent Magdalene Giffune said the school system will not consider changing the community-service requirement. ''It's an important part of teaching students to be responsible citizens," she said.

The US Department of Education is evaluating whether Anglin's complaint warrants investigation, said a spokesman, Jim Bradshaw.

Anglin, who has a 2.88 grade point average, acknowledged that discrimination complaints are not often filed by white, middle-class males like himself.

But he said: ''I'm not here to try to lower the rights of women or interfere with the rights of minorities. We just want to fix this one problem that we think is a big deal."

Gerry Anglin, Doug Anglin's father, said the school system should compensate boys for the discrimination by boosting their grades retroactively.

''If you are a victim of discrimination in the workplace, what do they do? They give you more money or they give you a promotion," Gerry Anglin said. ''Most of these kids want to go to college, so these records are important to them."

Tracy Jan can be reached at tjan@globe.com.
© Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... it/?page=2

[Bill Glasheen]

Absolutely, Mike. The bias used to be the other way. Now it's completely reversed.

One size does not fit all. In spite of years of research trying to prove just the opposite, we now find that boys and girls are different. What a concept! They think differently, they act differently, and they learn differently. And if you try to measure a boy by a girl's standards (or vice versa) you get what you get.

Check out the cover story in Newsweek this week.

The Trouble With Boys

After a few decades of trying to get rid of single-sex education, the pendulum is now swinging back. This is why number 1 son goes to an all-boys school (down the block from a sister all-girls school).

- Bill

[MikeK]

Good article Bill. One of my kids got sent home for something that I can't remember. I asked what kind of punishment did he get before being sent home and it was none. What happened to detention, standing in the corner or writing some sentence 100 times? Which BTW all of which we did at home that day and it worked just fine. I also dragged his sorry self back to school to apologize to the principle and show him his writing assignment. Heck maybe even a little bit of corporal punishment like the yard stick across their bottom would help keep the boys in line. I think teachers knew more about handling boys behavior back before the educators became enlightened.

[Bill Glasheen]

Boys are biologically, developmentally and psychologically different from girls—and teachers need to learn how to bring out the best in every one. "Very well-meaning people," says Dr. Bruce Perry, a Houston neurologist who advocates for troubled kids, "have created a biologically disrespectful model of education."

Here's where it gets interesting...

In elementary-school classrooms—where teachers increasingly put an emphasis on language and a premium on sitting quietly and speaking in turn—the mismatch between boys and school can become painfully obvious. "Girl behavior becomes the gold standard," says "Raising Cain" coauthor Thompson. "Boys are treated like defective girls."

In parochial school, I had teachers who sometimes would punish the boys - the entire class - for not behaving well like the girls. It was maddening, and even in grammar school we boys knew how absurd it was. Fortunately for us, there were a few of us boys (including yours truly) who would blow the teacher's pet girls out of the water with voluntary show-and-tell science projects, good public speaking ability (even if out of turn) and exceptional math skills.

Even my dad tells me stories of the same experiences he had in parochial school.

Primatologists have long observed that juvenile male chimps battle each other not just for food and females, but to establish and maintain their place in the hierarchy of the tribe. Primates face off against each other rather than appear weak. That same evolutionary imperative, psychologists say, can make it hard for boys to thrive in middle school—and difficult for boys who are failing to accept the help they need.

Both Bruce Hirabayashi and I have been dealing with this through our oldest sons now kicking into puberty. They're both extremely bright kids who can make you tear your hair out by how they do things to shoot themselves in the foot. They'll get into trouble not doing certain things, not bringing things to class, or not turning assignments in because they think they are "stupid." And they don't want to admit they're messing up because they lose face. So it becomes a festering problem until you get the grade report, and every teacher is saying the same bloody thing.

And a good father then just needs constantly to be there and make them understand how important all those "stupid" things are in life. It isn't always a boy's choice to please people, and rarely is an adolescent organized and detail-oriented. But again... We male role models need to be there to emphasize and model the right behavior.

But there's got to be a place where boys can be boys, and still learn these important lessons.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill, We're kind of in the same boat but Alex has gotten his stuff together again. I know he takes pride in what he does so I let him fail, he got a D in one subject, and he did not like seeing that or the feeling. The grades are all back up and he did most of the work himself. We still stay on top of him but it's just to make sure everything is OK and give assistance if needed.

How about this No Name-Calling Week? I'm happy for the kid who won but the idea is weird. To me at least.[/url]

[Bill Glasheen]

That's just part of the disease of adolescence. Somewhere around when the hormones kick in, the quest for positions on the social pecking order comes into play. And that's when all of this stuff starts.

And it isn't just boys. The movie Mean Girls brings the female side of this theme to popular entertainment.

It's an interesting process that we all have gone through and our kids themselves must go through. I have reminded my boys often of this "adolescent disease", and have pleaded often for them not to play the cruel side of it all.

Part of the game is picking on people who are different. It's difficult to convince kids of that age that different isn't necessarily a pejorative. It's really, really important to instill a sense of self esteem and an internal compass so they don't fall victim to inappropriate peer pressure just so they can fit in.

Your kids really can't escape this, nor do I think you want them to be completely free of it. But it's important to help guide them through it when they experience it all.

Good thing we adults have no such vices...

- Bill

[eastcoast_bsc]

Ya Milton is one of those Hoity Toity Wealthy Liberal neighborhoods, in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts. Think Platinum Blonde ultra Liberal wealthy Woman and their effete husbands driving thier massive SUV's and or Volvo's to the soccer match to see buffy or Jody play soccer or lacross. yuch Oh so Tony Milton Academy, had a scandal last year. Some young girl took on 5 boys and performed oral sex on them. They treated the boys as if they were members of Hitlers SS. But one of the boys was well connected politically, and with top lawyers and some political leverage, they got of with just some er as the Liberals say "reeducation" rant ended

[mikemurphy]

Bill,

I've read this article to both my family and my classes in school (high school), and they all agree that it is all a bunch of BS by a kid who doesn't have the GPA to get into Haaaaarvarrrd. That's what it all boils down to. Actually, I was a bit stunned to see the lack of agrument from you about another frivolous lawsuit.

Are there biases in school? Sure there are, just like there are biases in politics, medical research, law, sanitation industry, etc. This article seems to insinuate that these biases are part of policy within the Milton School district and the rest of public education. That is such a crock that it is not even worth the time this little ingrate has put into it. Developmentally, there are huge differences in boys and girls. This is true for both mental and physical factors. How they are treated in schools, however, and yes, this comes from first-hand experience depends on the individual student and individual teacher. There is nothing scientific about that. This kid's lawsuit will go nowhere and his 15 minutes of fame are will extinguish fast.

In another matter, to even mention that corporal punishment by public or private educators is ludicrous. Why not just abdicate all parental authority to someone else? Everyone has their own way of disciplining their children, but I would never advocate hitting them. What is resovled? And worse yet, to allow a teacher and/or administrator do it? Why don't we just bring back the stocks? I had a parochial school upbringing, and I know what the nuns were allowed to do, and to this day, if I ever see one of those nuns, I wounldn't hesitate to run my car at them and give them a little scare. What a barbaric way to learn.

As for the description of Milton, I suppose that's about as far off as you can get. Sure, there are still sections of Milton where the wealthy reside, but there is a huge minority, lower-class/middle-class section that lives there as well, especially being near Mattapan and Roxbury as it is. Have you ever been in Milton High School? I've taught there before and it is just like teaching at an inner-city school. Oh, you have your folks that take their kids to private schools like Milton Academy or Thayer Academy, and yes, these kids are not without their problems like the one you mentioned. Were the boys treated like Hitler SS? No they weren't, but they should have been. What they did, and what the girl did was incredible. Her for doing it and the boys for their part. Yet, even though they got off with light sentences (sorry for the pun), what does that mean? Absolutely nothing. Do you think middle-class kids would have been treated more harshly? Probably not as it seems that everyone involved just wanted to see this thing get resolved and move on. That's what they did, as I haven't heard anything else about it since the kids were kicked out of the school (if I remember right). But don't put Milton into a category that's reserved for very affluent communities such as Wellesley or the Hamptons, or even the Cape.

Honestly, I think everyone should have to go to a high school and walk the shoes of a teacher before they all spout out about education and how much they know of it. Just because people were educated in schools, doesn't mean they know how a school system works, and what the educators do day in and day out. But then again, "they pay my salary" so I guess me and my fellow public school teachers just have to accept the fact that we'll always have to deal with people who don't have the feintest idea of what we do.

mike

[Bill Glasheen]

Mike

You know how I feel about litigation. And I don't know about the specific school's issues and problems

However...

How can you ignore the Newsweek cover story article I referenced?

You know what you know, Mike.

Meanwhile, I'm a customer of the school system. And the last thing a customer wants to hear is this.

I think everyone should have to go to a high school and walk the shoes of a teacher before they all spout out about education and how much they know of it. Just because people were educated in schools, doesn't mean they know how a school system works, and what the educators do day in and day out. But then again, "they pay my salary" so I guess me and my fellow public school teachers just have to accept the fact that we'll always have to deal with people who don't have the feintest idea of what we do.

You see... In spite of the fact that the government makes me pay for the salaries of public school teachers (SOME of whom are worth it), I still have the right to walk. I can stil go elsewhere and pay for another product. And if I ever had one of my kid's teachers feed me a line like you just fed me, I'd walk and/or pass the comment on to the principal.

If we presented that attitude in my business, Mike, we'd lose all our customers. That's the way it is in private industry. You deliver or you lose your customers.

Public schools on average are failing boys, Mike. Not only that, but public schools in general are failing boys AND girls in math and science. And if we don't get our collective acts together, our kids will be living in a world where China, Korea, and other countries will be dominating the world markets.

Today I got 3 e-mails from 2 of number 1 son's teachers. He's in an all-boys school that strives for results and cares about process. We're working on issues that my son wouldn't get a second glance over in the public school system. And over the weekend, my wife and I talked for half an hour with number 2 son's teacher. That's just a few days in a week, Mike.

Furthermore, we're getting results. My older son's ERB scores are all in the top 10 percentile on all measures. Those scores reflect what the school is able to teach my son.

I want results, Mike. A parent - who is a customer - has a right to get results.

Poor performance of boys across the country and poor scores for all U.S. students in math and science is poor results. I don't have to put up with that - especially since my tax dollars pay for it and I get no benefit from it.

Sorry you take it personally, Mike, and I understand how and why. But I worked in the health insurance industry for 11.5 years. I've seen abuse like you've never seen. And the smartest thing I ever learned to do was to listen. And listening led to results.

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

Poor performance of boys across the country and poor scores for all U.S. students in math and science is poor results. I don't have to put up with that - especially since my tax dollars pay for it and I get no benefit from it.

But if you get no benefit from it, does that mean that you are not harmed by the low test scores, either?

Yes you do get a benefit from it Bill...when it works. You get the benefit of a well educated populice that strives to climb the next mountain to attain its goals. You get the benefit of a people who can read and write and contribute to society, work hard for years to help people (doctors and lawyers and nurses and health insurance company analysts and teachers) and generate wealth for their employers, and their families. You get people who stand head and shoulders above the rest who go on to become captains of industry or political or national leaders. While you have definite feelings about public schools, don't malign it by saying that you "get no benefit". The tax dollars you pay to support the public schools - when handled right - give you dividends down the road. But I am not going to get into the debate about the "homogenization" of public education, or about tax policy or how public school infringes upon parental rights or the like. I'll leave that to the consumers and the providers.

That being said, the poor math scores for both boys and girls are absolutely completely unacceptable. It seems teachers now adays want to to teach history and English and the like - all worthwhile subjects - while neglecting math and science. Are math and science students given the short end of the stick? Look at Rich C.'s story about becoming a teacher. They are starving for good math and science teachers if they are letting Rich walk in and name his terms. They are tripping over themselves to get more out of Rich - which is a testament to his abilities, intelligence and knowledge. Why is it that math and science teachers are a hot commodity, and yet English and Social Studies demand is somewhat mild?

I went to a co-educational parochial grammar school for a time, and was never treated any kinder than how those teachers treated me - nuns included. I guess the rest of you didn't have the right nuns. Sorry. And I went to a public high school (in Wellesley - for which I make no apologies and attribute the vindictives about that town to just plain old jealosy and envy) and could not have been happier with the education I received. I was able to get into the college(s) I wanted, pursue the course of study I wanted and work in the career I wanted. It worked - and continues to work - for me.

Gene

[Gene DeMambro]

Milton Academy is a private school, that has nothing to do with this kid's suit. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good hate.....

[mikemurphy]

Bill,

<How can you ignore the Newsweek cover story article I referenced? >

There is much in that article I don't agree with. I read nothing definitive other than this professor said this, and this professor's study says this. I would love to see what they are testing and what their population is. After my undergrad and graduate courses in education, plus the numerous seminars and symposiums, I find that most university education professors are way out of touch with what is happening in education down in the trenches.


<You know what you know, Mike. >

Like you in the medical research Bill, I have a certain advantage to this subject.

<Meanwhile, I'm a customer of the school system. And the last thing a customer wants to hear is this. >

Ah, the problem inherited in the system. A customer it is?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mike

I think everyone should have to go to a high school and walk the shoes of a teacher before they all spout out about education and how much they know of it. Just because people were educated in schools, doesn't mean they know how a school system works, and what the educators do day in and day out. But then again, "they pay my salary" so I guess me and my fellow public school teachers just have to accept the fact that we'll always have to deal with people who don't have the feintest idea of what we do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


<You see... In spite of the fact that the government makes me pay for the salaries of public school teachers (SOME of whom are worth it), I still have the right to walk. I can stil go elsewhere and pay for another product. And if I ever had one of my kid's teachers feed me a line like you just fed me, I'd walk and/or pass the comment on to the principal. >

Well, that's where we differ Bill, because some people refuse to look at reality and think they have a direct interaction on how I do my job. I've dealt with possibly thousands of parents and I've told them the same thing. Why do people like you think you can go to a teacher and tell them how to do their job? How many years did you go to school to get your Ph.D? Would you like someone like me to walk into your research center and say, my tax dollars are paying for the research you are doing and I'm going to tell you just how I think it should be done. I don't think you would appreciate it so much. I have over 10 years of post secondary schooling. I don't think that people can come in with the attitude that because they "pay my salary" they have some right to tell me how to do it. If you didn't like that from me and walked, I'd hold the door for you and show you the way to the principal. That's reality!!

<If we presented that attitude in my business, Mike, we'd lose all our customers. That's the way it is in private industry. You deliver or you lose your customers. >

That's just another problem with people outside of education. They want to treat it like a business. It's NOT a business. Plain and simple, so get off that soapbox. I've worked in both and can tell you firsthand.

<Public schools on average are failing boys, Mike. Not only that, but public schools in general are failing boys AND girls in math and science. And if we don't get our collective acts together, our kids will be living in a world where China, Korea, and other countries will be dominating the world markets. >

Once again, we, the test-driven society that we've become, always seem to judge us against education systems that is totally unfair. Let's look at the time kids from China, Korea, Japan, Germany, England all go to school. I'll bet you it's way more than 180 days. Last time I checked they were all in the 225 - 250 range. Could even be more now. How fair is it to compare the test scores of these systems. And, while you are doing that, why you come up with a test for social combatabilty, stress, anxiety, etc. Being math and science brilliant doesn't make us a better country in at of itself.

<Today I got 3 e-mails from 2 of number 1 son's teachers. He's in an all-boys school that strives for results and cares about process. We're working on issues that my son wouldn't get a second glance over in the public school system. And over the weekend, my wife and I talked for half an hour with number 2 son's teacher. That's just a few days in a week, Mike. >

You seem to imply that the teachers of your kids, because they go to private school, are wonderful because they communicate with you. Gosh, do you think we don't do that in the public sector? I'm on the email for hours during the day speaking to both students and parents, after-school meetings with parents, I act as an advisor to students, I run a web-page for my students and parents to keep abrest of what is happening in class. And you know what, I'm not the only one. Many PUBLIC school teachers go out of their way, WITHOUT PAY, to help kids that are in trouble or in need, that don't have your money to even have a choice to go to private school. There is so many amazing things that go unnoticed in a public school, and not all of them are academic, but people have become statistic-minded and if we don't match up to some subjective line, then there are problems.

<Furthermore, we're getting results. My older son's ERB scores are all in the top 10 percentile on all measures. Those scores reflect what the school is able to teach my son. >

Gee, just think, if your kids are so bright (which they obviously are), don't you think they would shine in public school as well? Do you honestly think that the best educators go to teach at private schools where pay and benefits are usually less than the public sector?

<I want results, Mike. A parent - who is a customer - has a right to get results.>

You should want results as a parent, as a parent! Because your kids deserve it.

<Poor performance of boys across the country and poor scores for all U.S. students in math and science is poor results. I don't have to put up with that - especially since my tax dollars pay for it and I get no benefit from it. >

I still would like to see the test results that put boys below girls, but as for the tax dollars and benefits, regardless of whether you children go to the public schools, the money you pay into the system to educate the disenfranchised, is money well-spent. These are the kids that will be your doctors, lawyers, construction workers, mailmen, etc., etc., etc.


<Sorry you take it personally, Mike, and I understand how and why. But I worked in the health insurance industry for 11.5 years. I've seen abuse like you've never seen. And the smartest thing I ever learned to do was to listen. And listening led to results. >

Of course I take it personally Bill. If it's not lawyers that you have a habit of insulting it's public school educators. You wrap these people neatly in one lump sum and call it a spade. It's a shame that you can't see the good in the tens of thousands of wonderful teachers out there who give their lives, in no different way than any public servant, to educate, advise, counsel, befriend, and direct their charges in a way that will lead them to better choices. Many times, this is done because there is no parental involvement at home. Your kids are lucky, many are not and they fall to us. Are you ready to stop whining and complaining about things your really don't understand and help? You could always step down from the majestic pedestal you seem to live in and help the system by getting involved. School systems everywhere are looking for good science and math people. This is your field. Will you help Bill? We are losing three science teachers next year, I could put a good word in for you.....are you ready Bill?

mike

[eastcoast_bsc]

Bill,

I've read this article to both my family and my classes in school (high school), and they all agree that it is all a bunch of BS by a kid who doesn't have the GPA to get into Haaaaarvarrrd. That's what it all boils down to. Actually, I was a bit stunned to see the lack of agrument from you about another frivolous lawsuit.

Are there biases in school? Sure there are, just like there are biases in politics, medical research, law, sanitation industry, etc. This article seems to insinuate that these biases are part of policy within the Milton School district and the rest of public education. That is such a crock that it is not even worth the time this little ingrate has put into it. Developmentally, there are huge differences in boys and girls. This is true for both mental and physical factors. How they are treated in schools, however, and yes, this comes from first-hand experience depends on the individual student and individual teacher. There is nothing scientific about that. This kid's lawsuit will go nowhere and his 15 minutes of fame are will extinguish fast.

In another matter, to even mention that corporal punishment by public or private educators is ludicrous. Why not just abdicate all parental authority to someone else? Everyone has their own way of disciplining their children, but I would never advocate hitting them. What is resovled? And worse yet, to allow a teacher and/or administrator do it? Why don't we just bring back the stocks? I had a parochial school upbringing, and I know what the nuns were allowed to do, and to this day, if I ever see one of those nuns, I wounldn't hesitate to run my car at them and give them a little scare. What a barbaric way to learn.

As for the description of Milton, I suppose that's about as far off as you can get. Sure, there are still sections of Milton where the wealthy reside, but there is a huge minority, lower-class/middle-class section that lives there as well, especially being near Mattapan and Roxbury as it is. Have you ever been in Milton High School? I've taught there before and it is just like teaching at an inner-city school. Oh, you have your folks that take their kids to private schools like Milton Academy or Thayer Academy, and yes, these kids are not without their problems like the one you mentioned. Were the boys treated like Hitler SS? No they weren't, but they should have been. What they did, and what the girl did was incredible. Her for doing it and the boys for their part. Yet, even though they got off with light sentences (sorry for the pun), what does that mean? Absolutely nothing. Do you think middle-class kids would have been treated more harshly? Probably not as it seems that everyone involved just wanted to see this thing get resolved and move on. That's what they did, as I haven't heard anything else about it since the kids were kicked out of the school (if I remember right). But don't put Milton into a category that's reserved for very affluent communities such as Wellesley or the Hamptons, or even the Cape.

Honestly, I think everyone should have to go to a high school and walk the shoes of a teacher before they all spout out about education and how much they know of it. Just because people were educated in schools, doesn't mean they know how a school system works, and what the educators do day in and day out. But then again, "they pay my salary" so I guess me and my fellow public school teachers just have to accept the fact that we'll always have to deal with people who don't have the feintest idea of what we do.

mike

Milton is 85.38 % white The median income for a household in the town is $78,985' and the median income for a family is $94,359. This was the year 2000 census. One small part of Milton is Minority. This as you stated is the mattapan border. I lived in Dorchester for 25 years. I think I can tell the difference between affluence and poverty. Milton is a long way from poverty. They are quite above the state average. And as for the young boys, who had oral sex with the young girl. They were young boys and charging them with Statutory rape would have only ruined their lives. The young girl had a history of this behaviour and her family seemed quite dysfunctional.

[mikemurphy]

Eastcoast (Do you have a name?)

Your statistics may be correct about Militon's demographics, although I never mentioned anything about poverty; however, have you been in their high school or school system? They must be on the Metco program or something similar as those stats do not compare to the makeup I had there for classes.

As for those kids, they should have been locked up for a good long time. Give me a break. The girl comes from a dysfunctional family and it's ok for 5 boys to use and abuse her? Their behavior should be the one in question. Did she tie them up and force them on her? I don't think so. She may be no saint, but her own personal problems do not make what they did right.

mike

[Bill Glasheen]

Of course I take it personally Bill. If it's not lawyers that you have a habit of insulting it's public school educators. You wrap these people neatly in one lump sum and call it a spade.

I challenge you, Mike, to start back at the beginning of this thread, and read it carefully. This was a fairly civil thread amongst concerned parents who care about their kids. Then you stepped in, and the tenor changed for the worse. Am I wrong?

You want history? I'll give you some history here, Mike. This isn't the first time you've stepped into a thread with me and chose to make it something beneath an informative, rational discussion.

I don't apologize for my political views, nor should I. I don't apologize for the fact that I demand the best for my kids. I don't apologize for the fact that I give up many material things in life so that my kids can have the best education my family possibly can provide them. (My father did the same for 8 kids, all while driving around in a Rambler and wearing the same 3 white shirts.) I don't apologize for highlighting what I find right with my schools and my teachers.

Well, that's where we differ Bill, because some people refuse to look at reality and think they have a direct interaction on how I do my job. I've dealt with possibly thousands of parents and I've told them the same thing. Why do people like you think you can go to a teacher and tell them how to do their job?

Here was the first breakdown in communication, Mike. If you'll read carefully, you'll see that primarily I ask for results. If a person or a group gets results, then they are rarely hassled. When they don't get results, then the process is called into question - as it should be.

That's just another problem with people outside of education. They want to treat it like a business. It's NOT a business. Plain and simple, so get off that soapbox. I've worked in both and can tell you firsthand.

This is another very interesting statement.

First... You have repeatedly inferred that I know nothing about teaching. Think carefully, Mike.

1) I've probably taught over 2000 martial arts students in my life - in a University Physical Education program complete with course grades.

2) In-between Bill and his Ph.D. were years of slave labor as a graduate student. And guess what graduate students get to do to earn their keep?

3) I was a faculty member at U.Va. for a number of years after I got my doctorate. I was also a member of various University faculty organizations and clubs.

I've had a little bit of experience with teaching, Mike. And yes, I've paid some dues.

Next...

They want to treat it like a business. It's NOT a business.

This is a line I enjoy a lot. Remove school teacher and insert physician. This was the line thrown at health insurance companies when they started demanding results from the physicians in their networks. They started demanding that they practiced evidence-based care. They started demanding that they stop duplicating test results. They asked for communication. Then the nonprofit National Committee for Quality Assurance (NCQA) was formed, and started measuring the performance of healthplans and physicians along the lines of process and outcomes. They wanted to know if kids were getting their immunzations. They wanted to know if diabetics were getting their foot exams. They wanted to know if people with asthma knew about their triggers and what to do in case of an attack.

Next thing you know, we folks in the industry started creating reports that compared physician to physician along the line of efficiency and process quality. So the physicians shot back with "But my patients are sicker!" So we in the industry started developing methods to case-mix-adust patient cohorts so we could do apples-to-apples comparisons.

And along the way, we caught a LOT of fraud. That shouldn't be surprising when you think about it.

At the end of the day, the cream rose and something else sank to the bottom of the pile. At the end of the day, we found more and more ways to measure the practice of doctors just as they measured the health of their patients.

I haven't heard the "It's NOT a business" line in a while, Mike, from physicians. But I do find it interesting to see the line coming out amongst educators, now that the field of outcomes research is making its way into education.

Call it what you want, Mike. But parents deserve to know if their children are getting educated the best they can be. Parents deserve to know that teachers are using evidence-based methods with their kids. Parents deserve to know that teachers as well as students are being measured on their performance. What's good for the goose...

What's the upside? Good teachers should be paid more. A LOT more. And the bad ones can always find another career. And if the process is right in the teaching, the outcomes should follow. And EVERYONE wins.

Once again, we, the test-driven society that we've become, always seem to judge us against education systems that is totally unfair.

If there's something handicapping the U.S. education system, well... What are we waiting for?

For what it's worth... I spend an awful lot of money during the summer seeing that my boys are occupied, and stay out of trouble. I'd a lot rather spend that SAME money seeing to it that they get more education. It doesn't have to be the same experience; it can be summer enrichment or apprenticeship or whatever. And I'm sure you wouldn't mind a few more months of pay.

But the bottom line is the bottom line, Mike. I see the U.S. falling behind in math and science in K to Senior. I see boys falling farther behind. Let's fix it. If you are claiming we need more days of school, then let's get more days of school.

And get used to the measurement, Mike. That's what the rest of the world must put up with. That's what YOU do to YOUR OWN students, Mike. Fair is fair... Why are you different? What is your special exemption? And if you said that in front of your students who must be measured by you on a daily basis, what will they think?

School systems everywhere are looking for good science and math people. This is your field. Will you help Bill?

Actually I'm talking to two local Universities about teaching courses such as differential equations and statistics. But I've got to work it out with my present employer.

When I finish saving for retirement ad my kids' education, this is something I can do as a hobby - like Rich. But I'll likely stay in the Univesity setting, as the need for math and science teachers at this advanced level is even more acute.

Oh and you obviously missed my impromptu statistics tutoring with Tony a few months ago on my Forum. I had GEM getting all excited. He thought we were talking dirty.

I still would like to see the test results that put boys below girls

Ahhh... Now we're actually talking about the topic of this thread!

High-school boys are losing ground to girls on standardized writing tests. The number of boys who said they didn't like school rose 71 percent between 1980 and 2001, according to a University of Michigan study. Nowhere is the shift more evident than on college campuses. Thirty years ago men represented 58 percent of the undergraduate student body. Now they're a minority at 44 percent. This widening achievement gap, says Margaret Spellings, U.S. secretary of Education, "has profound implications for the economy, society, families and democracy."

Those are some statistics to consider, Mike. The changes are difficult to explain away.

I highly recommend you read Raising Cain by Michael Thompson. I talked to my older son's principal about this book, Mike, and he cut me off in mid sentence. Yes, he had read it. Yes, the ideas were being considered in my son's school - as I knew they were.

And finally...

I've got to spot you a bit here, Mike, although you may not like how. In my view, a big part of the problem isn't your own. You indeed inherit the problems from home. You should be so lucky as to have a classroom of kids with parents such as your truly. Kids who have involved parents do better. That's a fact which is backed up well in the literature.

And what's the problem at home? Absent dads.

And why are dads absent? Because of a Great Society program that made it easier for women to remain as single parents. Without a dad at home, boys in particular have some serious problems. Without someone like me in the house getting all over the "boys being boys" and getting involved with teachers, you get what you get in school.

You inherit this, Mike. I feel for you. I respect what you have to put up with. And quite frankly you don't get paid enough - IF you are getting results.

But never fear. There will be people like me figuring out how to case-mix-adjust your student loads, and measuring test scores of the kids out the back end. Said people also will be scouring your own education research for evidence-based methods, and they'll be checking to see if those methods are being employed in the classroom. You'll get graded more and better in the future, Mike - like it or not. And if you make the grade, we will salute you.

- Bill