Jizen, Teacher of Shushiwa

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Jizen, Teacher of Shushiwa

Postby John Giacoletti » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:50 pm

Dan Rinchuse
Jack Summers
Gordie Breyette

Ring any Shohei Ryu bells?

See the web site, click on articles:

http://www.rinchusemartialarts.com/

My main question is the reference to Jizen as a teacher of Shushiwa in a list of test questions as a download on the website:

View the questions, very informative, by the way at:


http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Kl_-ONVO2pwJ:rinchusemartialarts.com/downloads/quiz.ppt+Jizen,+student+of+Shushiwa&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

Jizen - Chinese teacher of Shushiwa. He studied

at the Central Temple at Nansoye

Shushiwa (Chou Tsu) – Chinese teacher of

Kanbun Uechi

See also the genealogy chart in Mark Bishop, Okinawan Karate, p. 39 where Jizen is also shown as Shushiwa's teacher.

Any substance to this?

Bishop writes:

The life of Shu Shi Wu (or Chu Chi Wo) is something of a mystery, due to his probable connections with the Chinese secret societies who sought to overthrow the Ching and restore the Ming. Although Shu Shi Wa made his living by making and selling herbal medicines, he claimed to be the son of a farmer and it is believed that he had been a "priest" (using the name Sosei) at the central temple at Nansoye (or Nansei), a little to the south of Fuchou. His teacher at this "temple" is thought to have been a "priest" named Jizen and as Shu Shi Wa was at one time known to have been sought by the authorities, it has been put forward that the Nansoye Shaolin Temple was really a cover for a secret society and its history has been purposely clouded. One theory is that the temple had been built in 1768 and was actually a kind of village for society members who had fled persecution in the North.


What do we have .... a website with Shohei Ryu affiliation and a reputable text by a British author and karate researcher both coming up with the same man, Jizen, as the teacher of Shushiwa.
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Postby MikeK » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:12 am

John,
Edit long URLs like so

It makes things easier to read. :D
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Long URLs

Postby John Giacoletti » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:42 am

Efficient, yes. How did you do it?
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Postby Seizan » Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:11 am

John,

I think I missed a connection here. I don't quite understand how my name rings any "ShoheiRyu bells", as I have not been a member of ShoheiRyu for more than 8 years.
:)

Rinchuse Sensei and Summers Sensei have never been in my training lineage. Though I regard both of them quite highly, I'm not sure how you connected my name with theirs. Rinchuse Sensei very graciously asked permission to use one of my essays, and I was happy to provide some information regarding Toyama Sensei for his article on longevity and long-term karate practice, that's all.

"Jizen" is not mentioned in the essay I provided to Rinchuse Sensei, and the question (in the list referred to) did not originate with me.

Regards,

Seizan
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Postby f.Channell » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:53 pm

Sensei Jack was in charge of my first 3 dan tests and I've never heard him mention this information.

It is possible this came from the book as read by the owner of the website.

All these things to me serve as maps to the truth, but not necessary are the truth.

What Uechi should do is all get together and hire a professional researcher with Asian ties to find out.

Good use of Dan test fees if you ask me.

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Postby John Giacoletti » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:43 pm

Seizan wrote:

I'm not sure how you connected my name with theirs


The only connection I made in my mind was that the Rinhuse Martial Arts website contains the information you provided from Toyama Sensei and a copy of your article of some years back on the development of the Uechi curriculumn.

I take it that they respected you and the Okikukai organization and that they were proud to have your essay
posted on their web page.

You and Toyama Sensei are also listed on their "test" questions. Just scroll down on the questions towards the end.

I've never seen the name "Jizen" in your writings, just on that series of questions and in Mark Bishop's book. In fact you refer in one short history to a different monk as a predecessor of Shu Shi Wa, Shu Anan.

I'm compiling research references and looking for similarities. :wink:
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Re: Long URLs

Postby MikeK » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:46 pm

John Giacoletti wrote:Efficient, yes. How did you do it?


Easy,

Here's an example. I had to add the "X"s in front of the "url" tag so it wouldn't be intrepreted. Just remove the "X" from the opening tag and the ending tag and you should be good to go.

[Xurl=www.yahoo.com]Your text here[/Xurl]
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Postby Willy » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:06 pm

Thanks Mike!

cool it works!
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Postby Seizan » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:17 pm

The only connection I made in my mind was that the Rinhuse Martial Arts website contains the information you provided from Toyama Sensei and a copy of your article of some years back on the development of the Uechi curriculumn.

I take it that they respected you and the Okikukai organization and that they were proud to have your essay
posted on their web page.


Of course Rinchuse Sensei would "respect" the Okikukai - he is a member of the Okikukai (Okinawa KarateDo Kyokai). I am not Okikukai; I am in Zankai (Mountain Association).

Lining my name up with two Okikukai teachers, then asking "Ring any ShoheiRyu bells?" indicates to many that I have something to do with the organization.

Zankai.

Okikukai (aka ShoheiRyu).

I am not connected with the Okikukai ShoheiRyu in any way. I have been in the Okinawa KarateDo UechiRyu Zankai for more than 8 years, John.

A little research and pre-post verification would help.
:)

Regards,

Seizan
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For Whom the Bell Tolls

Postby John Giacoletti » Wed Jun 14, 2006 3:41 pm

Seizan wrote:

Lining my name up with two Okikukai teachers, then asking "Ring any ShoheiRyu bells?" indicates to many that I have something to do with the organization.


1.) Be careful where you hang your shingle :)

2.) The bell tolling is pure Pavlovian conditioning. It rings for thee (shades of John Donne, For Whom the Bell Tolls .. it tolls for thee) and the juices flow. The flavor is simply different these days. :wink:

Seizan also wrote:

A little research and pre-post verification would help
.

Gordi san ... you have at least three versions of A Short History of Uechi Ryu that can be found on the internet. These aren't dated and there are not any Notices of Recission. The articles aren't exactly the same.

Does the reader have the option of choosing which particular set of facts, opinions and circumstances he finds convenient? Does one version supplant and take the place of another;if a later version omits something presented in an earlier version what does does the omission signify? Is it wrong or did you overlook it or is it still good? :lol:
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From Whom the Ball Rolls

Postby Seizan » Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:14 pm

1.) Be careful where you hang your shingle :)

2.) The bell tolling is pure Pavlovian conditioning. It rings for thee (shades of John Donne, For Whom the Bell Tolls .. it tolls for thee) and the juices flow. The flavor is simply different these days. :wink:


Replying to a post is hardly Pavlovian conditioning. Not very well Donne, John. Such dramatics. The "different flavor" was your recipe, not mine.
:wink:

Sharing an essay does not equate to "hanging my shingle" anyplace. If that were true, I would be a member of Canna Sensei's dojo (and not unhappy about that, either!). Rinchuse Sensei and I are friends. Nothing to do with organizational affiliation.

Don't equate friendship with organizational politics, John. It just mucks things up.
:roll:

Gordi san ... you have at least three versions of A Short History of Uechi Ryu that can be found on the internet. These aren't dated and there are not any Notices of Recission. The articles aren't exactly the same.

Does the reader have the option of choosing which particular set of facts, opinions and circumstances he finds convenient? Does one version supplant and take the place of another;if a later version omits something presented in an earlier version what does does the omission signify? Is it wrong or did you overlook it or is it still good? :lol:


You found only three? Guess I'm slowing down in my old age...

As originally written, all my writings have dates and copyright notices appended. If those are omitted when posted and I am made aware, all I can do is politely notify the user. I am hardly in a position to do more than that.

Sometimes a person is not happy to hear that something he simply "likes" or that "reads well" is no longer endorsed or espoused by the author. But hey - if you like the way it sounds, that's OK. You go right ahead and keep the faith.
:roll:

Depending on where a shorter but more recently-written history shows up, it may or may not mention Zankai or Toyama Sensei specifically. I may add a point or two, or clarify an item. I continuously refine what was previously written as new information comes to light.

Otherwise, exercise your perogative and believe what you like... I do.
:)

If one wishes to establish good playing and social relationships with others, one is careful to roll the ball in the right direction.

Regards,

Seizan
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John:

Postby gmattson » Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:44 am

I sense an "agenda" with your post that has nothing to do with the subject matter.

Gordi is a respected Uechi practitioner who shares information freely with all groups, all affiliations. I wish everyone posted with the same friendly attitude and helpful, willing spirit he exhibits.

Lets stop the petty "sniping" and subtle back stabbing that others have made into a science on these forums. If you have different information, share it. . . in the same spirit of Uechi friendliness that Seizan does.

I don't know about the rest of the gang, but I feel very uncomfortable reading the tone of your post where Seizan is concerned.

Thanks,
George
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Postby f.Channell » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:25 pm

The term "secret society" is a beaut.
My father was a member of a "secret society" the Masonic Lodge.
They have secret ceremonies, handshakes and the whole deal.
That doesn't make me or my brothers a member of any secret society.
Van is Italian but unfortunately, although his student, I am an ugly litle nasty scotchman.

so Kanbun might have had no affiliation although his teacher did (or didn't).

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Postby f.Channell » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:54 pm

Forgot to mention.

A decent amateur geneologist can trace back 2-300 years easy. This Shushiwa trace is tough because of the language barrier, especially from what I understand in that region.

I would think a professional Chinese researcher could find out all anyone needs to know.

If the province was smart they would find out for us as I would think the temple and burial site of Shushiwa would be a major attraction as is the tomb of Uechi in Okinawa. Tourist dollars might be nice!
They did the same thing with the Shaolin temple. It receives lots of visitors.

I know if a Chinese researcher were hired to research the actual history, good or bad, I would chip in some $$$.

Question to ask Sensei Campbell at camp for sure. I can think of no one better to secure a researcher.

I'd like to hear a non political, non Uechi practitioner report on him from a skilled professional.

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Postby Van Canna » Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:41 pm

Just a few words on the coat-tails of GEM sensei.

I haven’t been following this thread too closely due to some internal ‘fireworks’ needing a dousing.

George wrote
I don't know about the rest of the gang, but I feel very uncomfortable reading the tone of your post where Seizan is concerned.


I agree with George. No reason to carry historical discussions with a sniper rifle. And I would be honored if Seizan were to hang his ‘shingle’ outside the Shinkookai dojo, where I teach. His karate is that good.

Seizan is also a personal friend of mine, and I want his experience of posting on my page to continue to be a very pleasant one.

Any discordant notes best be handled via personal email. 8)

Thank you.
Van
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