Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:25 am
Van wrote:
"And I hope, Mike, that you don’t do as many emotionally high-jacked seniors are famous for _ continue to miss the points of these discussions, especially on my forum.
The goal, at least for my students, should be that a TMA student comes up on top close to 100% in every defensive situation. And this is achieved with the blend of ‘something old_ something new’ _ evolution is not the enemy, obduracy is. "
Van, I am not so naive as to think that all TMA's are capable or have the skill to sucessfully defend themselves in a street fight. Nor am I so pessimistic about traditional training that I feel it is a worthless endeavor. My point (which does seem to be missed) is that TMA can work so long as the teacher and the student have knowledge, the inclination and desire to train, as necessary, to make it work.
Van wrote:
"Take the average TMA bloke, he couldn’t hit with enough stopping power to save his ass, and David Young demonstrated this at camp. "
Well, I have seen (and I am sure that you have also seen), average Joes demonstrate enough power to break various and multiple layers of inanimate objects. If such an average Joe can break through two or three concrete bricks, is that not enough power to stop someone if struck in the throat, solar plexus or unprotected and unconditiioned floating ribs or the kidneys?
Van wrote:
"Obviously more is needed, something that falls within the purview of specialists."
My question is whether the traditional techniques of the forms are lacking or whether the teacher/student is lacking?
My view is that the problem lies with the latter not the former.
Dave wrote:
"since you asked from my comments and opinion surviving a real life encounter is only a small part of the big picture as a whole. IF this was the case by itself then we would not need any other skills to help us in this area of personal surival.
Dave, isn't the point of self defense is to successfully defend oneself without incurring any damage to oneself?
Isn't this the point that Van is trying to drill home?
Dave wrote:
"Does a skilled person being confronted by a non skilled person and wins the fight..does it validate his skills, and if so then to what level?"
In my humble opinion, yes, the winner has validated his skills to the point where he/she has sucessfuly defended himself/herself without incurring any major harm. BTW, those skills learned from TMA may be more than just physical technique.
Does the average ruffian have hours of training throughout decades of effort? They may have attacked folks on numerous occassions but that is not the same as hours and hours of effort honing striking and grappling techniques aganst skilled opponents. Do they have some street smarts and have they learned some tircks to distract or overwhelm an opponent? Yes
Do they have the awareness level and intellectual depth of a trained fighter. Maybe or maybe not. More likely they have some brute strength or some tricks learned through associates without a very clear understanding of the mechanics of fighting. For example, would they know how to "take power from the earth" (i.e. kinetic linking)? Could they demonstrate a strike faster than the blink of an eye? (Probably not as they have not practiced this type of lightning fast striking for lengthy periods of time). Would they be able to disable an opponent with a targeted nerve strike? Would they know which nerves to strike? Would they know how to obtain maximum leverage for a joint lock or how to escape a joint lock? THe answer to all of these questions is most likely to be no, unless the ruffian(s) trained in a TMA.
Do the ruffians engage in body conditiiong ala Uechi, Goju or Isshin? NO. This being the case would they be able to withstand a determined and powerful attack from a trained and skilled Uechi-ka, Goju-ka or Isshin-ka without suffering major damage?
Dave wrote:
"If a skills person fighitng another skilled person and wins does it mean that the skill level of the person who won is better or is the style he trains in better, or is it the lack of skill from the person fighting him?"
Well, Dave, winning is not the be-all and end-all but it sures beats losing and IMO you either win or lose to the man, not to the style. The win might be based on psychological issues or a whole bunch of other variables aside from technique or skill learned through TMA training.
Dave wrote:
" real world people we are confronted with will not wear a shirt or posted sign telling us there skill or style until after it is over"
Your comment is well taken but in your own life are you not able to pick out those who present less of a threat than others? As you are well aware, TMA trains awareness as well as skill. Again, are the ruffians usually so intelligent as to disguise their true intent and skill level?
"there needs to be change, enhancement and growth on all catagories of skills, intensity levels and building experience"
So back to my question, if a student is lacking self-defense skills should he/she not go back to the roots of TMA and train harder and delve into a fuller understanding of the techniques handed down through the forms? Does not TMA, when taught and practiced appropriately, develop the skills and intensity levels that you mention?
If not, then why has TMA transcended the ages and proven itself time and time again in real-life encounters (caveat to Van, when the student has been trained and taught appropriately)?
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SPECIAL
Dave wrote:
" But did you see where it was the boxer with the punch who generated more power with his hands then ANY martial artist"
True, but the MA's also demonstrated enough power to simulate a car crash.
"....and it was the Muay Tai fighter who knees and kicks were the quickest and strongest of all martial artist they tested..."
True, but the power generated by the other MA's were also very damaging just not to the level achieved by the Muay Thai fighter.
Dave, did you note that the Chinese MA had faster hands than anyone else due to his training or that the ninjutsu practitioner had far better balance than any of the others, due to his traditional training? Wouldn't you agree that speed and balance would play a significant factor in a self-defense scenario?
Dave, my issue is with those who disparage TMA as a worthless endeavour without understanding the techniques and without having ever mastered those same techniques. Mastery is about body mechanics, mental and muscular control. Fighting and self-defense obviously encompasses far more and TMA offers students the opportunity to develop the necesary skills, if the student is willing to train to the appropriate level and if the teacher has the knowledge to transmit the information to the student. That knowledge is contained in the forms and the wisdom that has been passed from generation to generation (albeit not to everyone who calls him/herself an instructor)
All the best,
Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles
"And I hope, Mike, that you don’t do as many emotionally high-jacked seniors are famous for _ continue to miss the points of these discussions, especially on my forum.
The goal, at least for my students, should be that a TMA student comes up on top close to 100% in every defensive situation. And this is achieved with the blend of ‘something old_ something new’ _ evolution is not the enemy, obduracy is. "
Van, I am not so naive as to think that all TMA's are capable or have the skill to sucessfully defend themselves in a street fight. Nor am I so pessimistic about traditional training that I feel it is a worthless endeavor. My point (which does seem to be missed) is that TMA can work so long as the teacher and the student have knowledge, the inclination and desire to train, as necessary, to make it work.
Van wrote:
"Take the average TMA bloke, he couldn’t hit with enough stopping power to save his ass, and David Young demonstrated this at camp. "
Well, I have seen (and I am sure that you have also seen), average Joes demonstrate enough power to break various and multiple layers of inanimate objects. If such an average Joe can break through two or three concrete bricks, is that not enough power to stop someone if struck in the throat, solar plexus or unprotected and unconditiioned floating ribs or the kidneys?
Van wrote:
"Obviously more is needed, something that falls within the purview of specialists."
My question is whether the traditional techniques of the forms are lacking or whether the teacher/student is lacking?
My view is that the problem lies with the latter not the former.
Dave wrote:
"since you asked from my comments and opinion surviving a real life encounter is only a small part of the big picture as a whole. IF this was the case by itself then we would not need any other skills to help us in this area of personal surival.
Dave, isn't the point of self defense is to successfully defend oneself without incurring any damage to oneself?
Isn't this the point that Van is trying to drill home?
Dave wrote:
"Does a skilled person being confronted by a non skilled person and wins the fight..does it validate his skills, and if so then to what level?"
In my humble opinion, yes, the winner has validated his skills to the point where he/she has sucessfuly defended himself/herself without incurring any major harm. BTW, those skills learned from TMA may be more than just physical technique.
Does the average ruffian have hours of training throughout decades of effort? They may have attacked folks on numerous occassions but that is not the same as hours and hours of effort honing striking and grappling techniques aganst skilled opponents. Do they have some street smarts and have they learned some tircks to distract or overwhelm an opponent? Yes
Do they have the awareness level and intellectual depth of a trained fighter. Maybe or maybe not. More likely they have some brute strength or some tricks learned through associates without a very clear understanding of the mechanics of fighting. For example, would they know how to "take power from the earth" (i.e. kinetic linking)? Could they demonstrate a strike faster than the blink of an eye? (Probably not as they have not practiced this type of lightning fast striking for lengthy periods of time). Would they be able to disable an opponent with a targeted nerve strike? Would they know which nerves to strike? Would they know how to obtain maximum leverage for a joint lock or how to escape a joint lock? THe answer to all of these questions is most likely to be no, unless the ruffian(s) trained in a TMA.
Do the ruffians engage in body conditiiong ala Uechi, Goju or Isshin? NO. This being the case would they be able to withstand a determined and powerful attack from a trained and skilled Uechi-ka, Goju-ka or Isshin-ka without suffering major damage?
Dave wrote:
"If a skills person fighitng another skilled person and wins does it mean that the skill level of the person who won is better or is the style he trains in better, or is it the lack of skill from the person fighting him?"
Well, Dave, winning is not the be-all and end-all but it sures beats losing and IMO you either win or lose to the man, not to the style. The win might be based on psychological issues or a whole bunch of other variables aside from technique or skill learned through TMA training.
Dave wrote:
" real world people we are confronted with will not wear a shirt or posted sign telling us there skill or style until after it is over"
Your comment is well taken but in your own life are you not able to pick out those who present less of a threat than others? As you are well aware, TMA trains awareness as well as skill. Again, are the ruffians usually so intelligent as to disguise their true intent and skill level?
"there needs to be change, enhancement and growth on all catagories of skills, intensity levels and building experience"
So back to my question, if a student is lacking self-defense skills should he/she not go back to the roots of TMA and train harder and delve into a fuller understanding of the techniques handed down through the forms? Does not TMA, when taught and practiced appropriately, develop the skills and intensity levels that you mention?
If not, then why has TMA transcended the ages and proven itself time and time again in real-life encounters (caveat to Van, when the student has been trained and taught appropriately)?
NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SPECIAL
Dave wrote:
" But did you see where it was the boxer with the punch who generated more power with his hands then ANY martial artist"
True, but the MA's also demonstrated enough power to simulate a car crash.
"....and it was the Muay Tai fighter who knees and kicks were the quickest and strongest of all martial artist they tested..."
True, but the power generated by the other MA's were also very damaging just not to the level achieved by the Muay Thai fighter.
Dave, did you note that the Chinese MA had faster hands than anyone else due to his training or that the ninjutsu practitioner had far better balance than any of the others, due to his traditional training? Wouldn't you agree that speed and balance would play a significant factor in a self-defense scenario?
Dave, my issue is with those who disparage TMA as a worthless endeavour without understanding the techniques and without having ever mastered those same techniques. Mastery is about body mechanics, mental and muscular control. Fighting and self-defense obviously encompasses far more and TMA offers students the opportunity to develop the necesary skills, if the student is willing to train to the appropriate level and if the teacher has the knowledge to transmit the information to the student. That knowledge is contained in the forms and the wisdom that has been passed from generation to generation (albeit not to everyone who calls him/herself an instructor)
All the best,
Mike DeDonato
Los Angeles