Sorry, another no-touch video

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:34 pm

I agree with you about the forearm Bill. Good post!

But for the record karate is a sport too. Gear and all.

Modern warriors train to kill. Absolutely, but let us not loose sight of this:

http://download.yousendit.com/8764DD1C7F4C88C4

And then we have the sport of boxing

http://download.yousendit.com/BD1EDEDE2CCE6DC8

Did he say boxing? Did I see a gloved hand? Was that a closed fist?

These striking skills look kind of effective to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTTRaRpE ... ed&search=

I’d suggest that no matter what the art/sport it's a lot like Christmas presents some assembly is required if you intent on self defense applications. But it's not a big step for a boxer to strike with the palm heel or the thumb. They also can strike the throat or body.

I weary of the killer ninja posturing by karate types, that portrays boxing as flawed because they wear gloves when they train or it’s range specific. Hell all martial arts get diluted to sport when you train them and they are all range specific. When was the last time a Uechi guy killed someone? Ohhh but they could if they wanted to I forgot. Karate is lethal. Boxers don’t make this claim, but every now and then there is an accident. I don’t know but if people die now and then it might be effective. Certainly more convincing than this could kill you but I don’t want to.

I also grow weary of this boxing is superior rant that surfaces from time to time too. It’s kind of a juvenile pursuit when we start comparing this art to that and claiming one is better than the other. Puts me in mind of the grappling is better than striking rant you get from some of the BJJ crowd.

But let us also consider this:

http://download.yousendit.com/6205C1CA58DF1273

I can’t argue with that statement!

I think what is important is not comparing one style to another, but objectively judge ones short comings and seeking to improve upon them. I believe all styles have their flaws and their strengths. I hope to steal from all of them to shore up my short comings.

Disclaimer:

I’m not targeting anyone with these comments just playing off some comments with my own rant.

mhosea · Post by **mhosea** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:06 pm

Thanks for the clips, Laird. The boxing clip illustrates what I like most AND least about boxing as a martial art. IMO, we shouldn't forget that BOTH these guys are boxers, and the guy who gets knocked out was executing a standard boxing defensive technique of covering up. A lot of bouts have flurry, cover, flurry, cover, often taking turns.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:14 am

Willy wrote:
But for the record karate is a sport too. Gear and all.

Actually I beg to differ.

There is a BIG difference between Sport Karate and Traditional Karate. And they are different from Self-Defense, Combat Martial arts (a.k.a. Marine Corp Martial Arts Program), Law Enforcement training, etc., etc. Marc "Animal" MacYoung has a great Venn Diagram he uses to describe how these various topics may overlap, but they absolutely ARE NOT the same thing.

Kanbun's art which he brought back from Shushiwa was a method of Fuzhou fighting taught around the time of the boxer rebellion. As such, it can be considered part combat art, and part traditional martial art. Uechi Ryu has inherited that, but has added in traditional Okinawan Karate and - yes - sport karate.

Decades ago, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace repeatedly would make distinctions between what he did in the ring (sport karate) and what he did in the dojang (traditional Tang Soo Do I believe). When I teach, I make explicit distinctions between what I teach when I'm training kata (traditional martial arts), what I teach when I show kata application (self-defense, combat), what we do when we spar (sport karate), what we are doing when I do my barroom brawl scenario training (self-defense, combat), what Rich does when he trains and teaches in Quantico (MCMAP, a.k.a. combat) and what we do when Rich teaches one of his excellent courses to the general public (self-defense).

Just so you know that I understand the differences...

There absolutely is nothing wrong with using sport to teach you about other facets of the martial universe. I love boxing, and have done some. I work with my son on wrestling. I like to watch MMA matches. It's all good.

- Bill

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:19 am

Recently said to me:

"The difference between sport karate and fighting is that in sport karate you're trying to keep the man alive."

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:46 am

mhosea wrote:It can be used that way while dropping down and moving in against an attacker who is punching to the head, but there are several clues in kata that this is not the most interesting and useful interpretation. One is the end if Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan), which in two directions ends a sequence with the technique. Also, in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan), there is a sequence of three in a row in one direction, again ending the sequence with the technique.

I think it's designed to be an inside technique, a controlling technique with the forearm pressed to the neck or, when it can be delivered more quickly, a strike, either to the neck or under the chin to force the head up in order to create an opening, but I never see that demonstrated as bunkai of the kata in which the technique appears.

Mike, In the Shotokan that I'm learning we use the forearms in those moves to break or dislocate the opponents elbows. That's even the application that Funakoshi gave it, and it's easy and effective.

Posted by Van

Forearms are formidable ‘entry weapons’ among other uses. Wes Tasker [Pekiti Tirsia] showed us some fantastic use of forearms work and conditioning that goes to ‘structure’ _

100% agree with you Van, but I've rarely seen karateka (in general) use their forearms in sparring or during self defense training.

And this one is deadly as taught by Art Rabesa _ Whip your right arm around behind his head and snap the inside of your forearm into the back of his skull.

I used that one recently to show someone why closing without taking the guy out is not a good thing.

Also snap your forearm up between the opponent’s legs once you find the opening.

That's another favorite of mine that I learned from a Hwarangdo guy and it works good when you're in a funny position. Another one is to violently push or hit your own forearm into a guys neck with your other hand. It's a fun tool that is very under used.

mhosea · Post by **mhosea** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:39 am

MikeK wrote: Mike, In the Shotokan that I'm learning we use the forearms in those moves to break or dislocate the opponents elbows. That's even the application that Funakoshi gave it, and it's easy and effective.

Yes, that's one application, and it works in Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan), but there are too many in succession in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan). How many elbows does this guy have, anyway?

So I presume this is a (not very great) illustration here where the technique you refer to is being done at the end of the sequence of jodan ukes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-1FD_kCcVk

It looks clearer here in Heian Nidan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFE_KuUo9ko

This arm break you refer to is one of a few shining moments, IMO. Here's what I used to see. The Pinan Shodan bunkai is after the group Fukyugata I and II group demonstrations, about 25% of the way in (which is good because the video doesn't load quickly).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2drhrqqp_E

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:59 am

Another one is to violently push or hit your own forearm into a guys neck with your other hand. It's a fun tool that is very under used.

Excellent. And yes, it is underused.

Except by Bob Campbell

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:10 am

Mike,
Pinan Nidan: The video was close. Works one of two ways with the first high block pulling the opponents arm down while the other goes up, and the second which works well against grabs is the left is coming down on the lower forearms while the other is coming from below in a scissoring motion. And you do it a couple of times because he has tough elbows.

Shotokans jodan uke is sometimes said to be to flat to be a good block, but if we look at the move as a elbow break then the flat angle makes more sense.

Pinan Shodan: Once again very close. The low block is either a grab or is grabbed and the other hand is once again attacking that elbow.

Van,
Considering how much time is spent conditioning the tool how does it get lost when karateka are working applications, you would think it would be one of the first tools that they use. My experience is that many karate people see something useful, are impressed, consider it special and then just go back to doing what they were doing before. Very frustrating.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:19 am

Van,
Considering how much time is spent conditioning the tool how does it get lost when karateka are working applications, you would think it would be one of the first tools that they use. My experience is that many karate people see something useful, are impressed, consider it special and then just go back to doing what they were doing before. Very frustrating.

True.

It is because they are not made to use it by the right drill scenarios.

It is up to the teacher to 'force' the use of tools, as Kanbun used to practice and teach Jyu-Kobo.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:28 am

There is a BIG difference between Sport Karate and Traditional Karate.

so which do you do ? , or do you do both ?

and if so is the difference confusing and known to your students ?

Excellent thread by all by the way , agree totally with all the forearm uses .

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:46 am

The Roman form of boxing was often a fight until death to please the spectators who gathered at such events. Often slaves were used against one another in a circle marked on the floor. This is where the term ring came from.

In 393AD, during the Roman gladiator period boxing was abolished due to excessive brutality. It was not until the late 17th century where boxing re-surfaced in London.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/sport/boxin ... tory.shtml

Just so you know the difference between the two.

Actually I beg to differ.

Hey you can disagree when ever you want conversations are dull when everyone shares the same point of view.

There is a BIG difference between Sport Karate and Traditional Karate

What is Traditional Karate

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:52 am

What is Traditional Karate

would it be that practice thats about 50 years old ? created by assimilating all sorts of different stuff picked up along the way ....

sounds like that fadish MMA ...

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:17 am

Cat fight

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 0&q=boxing

Another one!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 2&q=boxing

The Sweet science!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 5&q=boxing

I understand karate techniques are safer…you don’t break your hands!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 3&q=boxing

Another one!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 1&q=boxing

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:44 am

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 2&q=boxing

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 9&q=boxing

that Kangaroo Kicks , thats not sport boxing !!!!

Willy · Post by **Willy** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:18 pm

Killer Willard is doing traditional kanga-ryu. The primal fighting system of the roos. They been fighting that way since the beginning.

Is that anything like traditional real karate?