What is "Traditional" martial arts?
Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:47 pm
Interesting question that Van once again asked about in one of Dave's threads.
One dictionary says "traditional" is:
quote: Conforming to established practice or standards:
Which I believe is a pretty fair definition for what a traditional martial art is.
MMA don't really qualify, because of its nature of ongoing change in technique and strategy.
A brand new martial art doesn't qualify either, since few of the made-up new styles of martial arts last long enough to be considered "traditional".
A system that has been around for awhile (Uechi) and has retained its core values, techniques, kata and mindset would, in my estimation qualify as a "traditional" system.
Granted, the proponents "work" the techniques to suit the individual and components are modified, added and in some cases deleted. But the core system has been preserved and continues to be studied. Importantly, individuals are able to interpret these components in their own way while retaining the identifying qualities of the core system.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 15:43
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Tradition Martial Artist
I will gladly throw myself out there in this thread......
Definitions mean MANY things to many different people. And with definitions come beliefs, and egos.
The word TRADITIONAL in itself usually pertains to something done the original way, past down through generations, therefore become a tradition. This is the way it has always been done mentality. This also preserves secrets specific to each style. This is good but also stops the learning factor in the process.
Mixed Martial Arts usually means just that, a mixture of various styles, not only past down though the generations but constantly evolving...if it dos not change it quickly becomes outdated. This is the way it was done last year becomes a different way this year mentality. This also exposes secrets specific to each style therefore the need to change, enhance and do it differently because it is a continuous cycle of learning.
The best example I can give is 50 years ago when the knee strike was taught it was done this way with movement, contact and breathing.....But now 50 years later, we definitely have a more effective way to execute a knee strike, not only from movement tactics, the contact methods, and breathing we have other dynamics, to enhance the knee strike through repetition, past reports, liability issues, technology, number of uses etc.. that was not available 50 years ago.
I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
To try to live within these terms and definitions is possible but then when you do, you assume the label put on it as well.
Any further thoughts?
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 16:31
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gmattson
Joined: 16 Sep 1998
Posts: 5679
Location: Mount Dora, Florida I believe we
are saying the same thing Dave.
You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.
But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".
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Post 18 Dec 2006 17:13
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused
quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.
On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.
quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...
“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”
But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 18:07
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Thanks MikeK
quote: Originally posted by MikeK If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused
quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.
On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.
quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...
“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”
But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate you sharing that with me. He does sound like the out of the box type of teacher I would have enjoyed....
Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."
You might be on a sports field and hiting a ball, but you are definitely out of the ball park.....lol
Are you going to be at the MAAI confernce in Vegas this year?
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:37
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Re: I believe we
quote: Originally posted by gmattson are saying the same thing Dave.
You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.
But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yes George I think we are.....but you know me I like to have pictures with my words....lol
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:42
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
Dave, I wish I could make it to the MAAI conference. Heck I'd love to get down to FL for the training, but family keeps me here in VA. My wife already thinks I'm nuts for driving 60 miles each Sunday to spend the day training and having my arse handed to me. Laughing
quote: Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."
That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.
A problem I have with traditional martial arts is how often extra baggage creeps in and becomes part of the tradition. By their nature they are trying to preserve things and rarely go through a good house cleaning to get rid of excess that can bog everyone down and gets in the way of the important things. Just my opinion.
The other thing about tradition that I don't get is whose traditions are we carrying on and why?
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Post 18 Dec 2006 21:55
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World MikeK
quote: That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.
------------------------------------------------
Very good one..thanks....
Hey I hear you on the family issued...I was blessed with the one I have, I live in Fayetteville, NC now and drive the east coast alot. We should stay in touch and if time permits maybe we can get together for a training session. I have agents from the DC and MD area who travel here for training when I am free.
And you do know she may like FL as it is close to Orlando, and she could even train with you if she is interested....just let me know, I will make arrangements for her to go through the course with you at her own pace free of charge.
Either way I appreciate your comments and questions. Merry Christmas.....
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 22:25
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
Thanks for the offer Dave but if she hits Orlando she'll be hitting the spa at the Grand Floridian. Laughing She's in good shape and has handled herself well on two occasions in NYC. She maybe the nastier fighter between the two of us. Me, I'm a big old wuss and one of the worst martial arts posers ever.
Fayetteville isn't all that far from Richmond. Ever do seminars in the area?
You have a Merry Christmas too Dave.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 22:40
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Hey I hear you there.....
A spa does sound better then some hard training though maybe she is onto something....Very Happy
No Richmond is not far at all. The only training I do in this area is either private contract for the military, or for special requests, as I mentioned earlier. But a training day with you I am always open for when we can both schedule the time.
Let me know...God Bless!
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 23:28
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.
quote: the crux is of course the core , to me if you do the big three and kotikitae/conditioning your doing Uechi , that is the tradtion , all else is well everything else .
Marcus, So is the traditional core of Uechi just what's in the 3 kata and conditioning? Couldn't I use 2, 3, 4 or 5 of the other kata and still get the core material? This is a problem with "tradition", it can keep new material out and lock excess material in.
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Post 19 Dec 2006 13:00
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
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Location: Around the World Anytime MikeK
quote: Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.
Just let me now!
Dave
Post 19 Dec 2006 13:07
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wes tasker
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 104
Location: Somerville, MA
Marcus-
quote: well the conformists traditions Mike , you see if you dont conform then by definition they wont see you as traditional so you have to scrape and bow and be scared of the labels .
Who is "they"? I've been a student of traditional martial arts for about 26 years now and have never run into what you're talking about. I know that everyone's experience is different - but why are you painting with such a wide brush?
There is more to traditional martial arts than just what you've experienced and or seen/heard.
-wes tasker
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Post 19 Dec 2006 14:47
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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Wes,
I'm going to guess the "they" are people who conform to traditions just to fit in and accept the traditions because that's just the way things have always been done, and in my experience it is very common among many arts that have a revered founder. Arts from JKD to Shotokan to WC all can have a problem with practitioners becoming orthodox traditional in their practices.
Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts, and what makes certain arts traditional?
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Post 19 Dec 2006 16:30
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wes tasker
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 104
Location: Somerville, MA
quote: Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts,
Basically, if they have what you are looking for. If you wanted to study a classical form of Japanese swordsmanship and were lucky enough to gain entrance to the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu - then great. They are commited to preserving 15th century weapons tactics. Just because an art is done for preservation, doesn't make it bad. What about the guy who joins an Aikido school because he likes the philosophy, reishiki, and movement and could care less if it will help him when Billy-bad-ass high on PCP mugs him. As long as one is honest about what one does than great. So if you're happy in the art that you do, and it serves its purpose, and there's no mis-direction as far as what the art is for and why one is practicing it - then there are your benefits.
quote: and what makes certain arts traditional?
Merriam-Webster:
Tradition - an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action.
Notice the definition has nothing to do with how old the pattern is, or if it's been modified or not. Tradition is one of those words in the martial arts (like Qi, Internal, and Aiki) where there is a "dictionary" definition, and then there is everyone and their uncle's personal definition. I tend to go with the dictionary one - so alot of what people think is not traditional, I do.
-wes
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One dictionary says "traditional" is:
quote: Conforming to established practice or standards:
Which I believe is a pretty fair definition for what a traditional martial art is.
MMA don't really qualify, because of its nature of ongoing change in technique and strategy.
A brand new martial art doesn't qualify either, since few of the made-up new styles of martial arts last long enough to be considered "traditional".
A system that has been around for awhile (Uechi) and has retained its core values, techniques, kata and mindset would, in my estimation qualify as a "traditional" system.
Granted, the proponents "work" the techniques to suit the individual and components are modified, added and in some cases deleted. But the core system has been preserved and continues to be studied. Importantly, individuals are able to interpret these components in their own way while retaining the identifying qualities of the core system.
_________________
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"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Post 18 Dec 2006 15:43
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Tradition Martial Artist
I will gladly throw myself out there in this thread......
Definitions mean MANY things to many different people. And with definitions come beliefs, and egos.
The word TRADITIONAL in itself usually pertains to something done the original way, past down through generations, therefore become a tradition. This is the way it has always been done mentality. This also preserves secrets specific to each style. This is good but also stops the learning factor in the process.
Mixed Martial Arts usually means just that, a mixture of various styles, not only past down though the generations but constantly evolving...if it dos not change it quickly becomes outdated. This is the way it was done last year becomes a different way this year mentality. This also exposes secrets specific to each style therefore the need to change, enhance and do it differently because it is a continuous cycle of learning.
The best example I can give is 50 years ago when the knee strike was taught it was done this way with movement, contact and breathing.....But now 50 years later, we definitely have a more effective way to execute a knee strike, not only from movement tactics, the contact methods, and breathing we have other dynamics, to enhance the knee strike through repetition, past reports, liability issues, technology, number of uses etc.. that was not available 50 years ago.
I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
To try to live within these terms and definitions is possible but then when you do, you assume the label put on it as well.
Any further thoughts?
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 16:31
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gmattson
Joined: 16 Sep 1998
Posts: 5679
Location: Mount Dora, Florida I believe we
are saying the same thing Dave.
You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.
But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".
_________________
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"Do or do not. there is no try!"
Post 18 Dec 2006 17:13
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused
quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.
On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.
quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...
“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”
But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 18:07
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Thanks MikeK
quote: Originally posted by MikeK If the usage of the knee strike changes why couldn't someone change the kata to fit that usage? Confused
quote: This also preserves secrets specific to each style.
On the way home I was thinking about traditional arts and how hard it is to keep them intact. In this modern age there is just so much information and ways to spread that information that many of those secrets are can be shared via DVD or even YouTube. Things that may have been only shared between a trusted student and his instructor can be purchased from any number of places. I think traditional arts will be with us but it won't be for any secrets that they may contain.
quote: I have spent about 35 years of my life studying and practicing various styles of martial arts, and I would go on the limb to say that if any of the Masters of the old were here today, knowing what we do know about things in general even they would have made the changes necessary......and the few who wanted to rebel and say OH NO....just would be unemployed.
Dave, Kyan Chotoku comes to mind. From the variations of the kata he passed he was always changing how he did things. A quote I like about Kyan is this one...
“he seems to have taught every student something different. Anyone who preserves a Kyan kata is preserving something that Kyan himself eventually abandoned.”
But the kata and techniques that he passed on are considered very traditional.
------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate you sharing that with me. He does sound like the out of the box type of teacher I would have enjoyed....
Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."
You might be on a sports field and hiting a ball, but you are definitely out of the ball park.....lol
Are you going to be at the MAAI confernce in Vegas this year?
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:37
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Re: I believe we
quote: Originally posted by gmattson are saying the same thing Dave.
You mentioned a "knee strike" changing its application and perhaps its usage over the years. But it is still a knee strike, which is the "traditional" component. In our kata we have knee strikes, which are constantly being changed regarding usage and application.
But the kata hasn't changed. That is the "core" system I refer to that makes what we do "traditional".
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yes George I think we are.....but you know me I like to have pictures with my words....lol
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 20:42
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
Dave, I wish I could make it to the MAAI conference. Heck I'd love to get down to FL for the training, but family keeps me here in VA. My wife already thinks I'm nuts for driving 60 miles each Sunday to spend the day training and having my arse handed to me. Laughing
quote: Another quote you may like:" Training for an encounter that will never or most likely not happen is like preparing for a baseball game but then showing up to play soccer."
That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.
A problem I have with traditional martial arts is how often extra baggage creeps in and becomes part of the tradition. By their nature they are trying to preserve things and rarely go through a good house cleaning to get rid of excess that can bog everyone down and gets in the way of the important things. Just my opinion.
The other thing about tradition that I don't get is whose traditions are we carrying on and why?
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Post 18 Dec 2006 21:55
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World MikeK
quote: That's a good one. Another one that I like is from Peyton Quinn...
They are offering ingenious solutions to nonexistent problems.
------------------------------------------------
Very good one..thanks....
Hey I hear you on the family issued...I was blessed with the one I have, I live in Fayetteville, NC now and drive the east coast alot. We should stay in touch and if time permits maybe we can get together for a training session. I have agents from the DC and MD area who travel here for training when I am free.
And you do know she may like FL as it is close to Orlando, and she could even train with you if she is interested....just let me know, I will make arrangements for her to go through the course with you at her own pace free of charge.
Either way I appreciate your comments and questions. Merry Christmas.....
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 22:25
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
Thanks for the offer Dave but if she hits Orlando she'll be hitting the spa at the Grand Floridian. Laughing She's in good shape and has handled herself well on two occasions in NYC. She maybe the nastier fighter between the two of us. Me, I'm a big old wuss and one of the worst martial arts posers ever.
Fayetteville isn't all that far from Richmond. Ever do seminars in the area?
You have a Merry Christmas too Dave.
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Post 18 Dec 2006 22:40
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Hey I hear you there.....
A spa does sound better then some hard training though maybe she is onto something....Very Happy
No Richmond is not far at all. The only training I do in this area is either private contract for the military, or for special requests, as I mentioned earlier. But a training day with you I am always open for when we can both schedule the time.
Let me know...God Bless!
Dave
Post 18 Dec 2006 23:28
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
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Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.
quote: the crux is of course the core , to me if you do the big three and kotikitae/conditioning your doing Uechi , that is the tradtion , all else is well everything else .
Marcus, So is the traditional core of Uechi just what's in the 3 kata and conditioning? Couldn't I use 2, 3, 4 or 5 of the other kata and still get the core material? This is a problem with "tradition", it can keep new material out and lock excess material in.
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Post 19 Dec 2006 13:00
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Dave Young
Joined: 11 Nov 2003
Posts: 132
Location: Around the World Anytime MikeK
quote: Dave, thanks so much for the offer to train with you. I'm going to have to take you up on that sometime.
Just let me now!
Dave
Post 19 Dec 2006 13:07
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wes tasker
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 104
Location: Somerville, MA
Marcus-
quote: well the conformists traditions Mike , you see if you dont conform then by definition they wont see you as traditional so you have to scrape and bow and be scared of the labels .
Who is "they"? I've been a student of traditional martial arts for about 26 years now and have never run into what you're talking about. I know that everyone's experience is different - but why are you painting with such a wide brush?
There is more to traditional martial arts than just what you've experienced and or seen/heard.
-wes tasker
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Post 19 Dec 2006 14:47
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MikeK
Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 2506
Wes,
I'm going to guess the "they" are people who conform to traditions just to fit in and accept the traditions because that's just the way things have always been done, and in my experience it is very common among many arts that have a revered founder. Arts from JKD to Shotokan to WC all can have a problem with practitioners becoming orthodox traditional in their practices.
Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts, and what makes certain arts traditional?
_________________
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Post 19 Dec 2006 16:30
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wes tasker
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 104
Location: Somerville, MA
quote: Wes,
What are the benefits and good things about traditional arts,
Basically, if they have what you are looking for. If you wanted to study a classical form of Japanese swordsmanship and were lucky enough to gain entrance to the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu - then great. They are commited to preserving 15th century weapons tactics. Just because an art is done for preservation, doesn't make it bad. What about the guy who joins an Aikido school because he likes the philosophy, reishiki, and movement and could care less if it will help him when Billy-bad-ass high on PCP mugs him. As long as one is honest about what one does than great. So if you're happy in the art that you do, and it serves its purpose, and there's no mis-direction as far as what the art is for and why one is practicing it - then there are your benefits.
quote: and what makes certain arts traditional?
Merriam-Webster:
Tradition - an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought or action.
Notice the definition has nothing to do with how old the pattern is, or if it's been modified or not. Tradition is one of those words in the martial arts (like Qi, Internal, and Aiki) where there is a "dictionary" definition, and then there is everyone and their uncle's personal definition. I tend to go with the dictionary one - so alot of what people think is not traditional, I do.
-wes
_________________
Honore Sapientia Gladioque Transcendere