Quality vs Quantity

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 10:43 pm

In practice, quality is more important than quantity. To defeat a single opponent this is the corret method, to defeat many opponents, this is the still the correct method. The one who practices too great a variety will become panicked and distraught, if one does not train the body with a realistic foundation, in combat there will be no mature technique to fall back on, one will have neither a well trained body nor a solid technique.
Xing Yi Nei Gong
Xing Yi Health Maintenance Internal Strength Development
compiled by Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell ©1999

So I really like that term mature technique. To me that means the principles of the technique are wholly understood by the practitioner from many directions and with many levels of force, that the body that will deliver the technique is able to do so without hesitation, and that the mind of the practitioner is so at ease with the technique that it can be delivered without thought.

If I think about what I know in this fashion...there is much training to be done.

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:42 am

Agreed...completely. A very high concept.

I'm not sure I would stop at "wholly understood", however.
Perhaps "wholly ingrained" would be my approach. Big difference.

Here's how I might make the distinction, and its relevance:

The things we struggle to "understand" in class and in solo practice do, in my opinion, feed a "sub-system" of "ingrained- reaction learning", so that ideally, in time of need, no conscious recall is needed. (Very handy, since none is available!)
So in class we analyze and test, but the info goes deep down, both physically and mentally, down beyond the conscious.

Principles are "modes of reaction", that is, when "X" occurs, you AUTOMATICALLY do "Y". There's no conscious analysis.
Like when a fly lands on your face, you swat.
The principle (face defense) triggers a "mode of reaction" (swat!).

You learned that early, but you don't replay a checklist of responses when a fly lands on your face. You swat!
The reaction got buried down deep, and surfaces instantly -- without decision.

----------------------

I am becoming increasingly convinced, through personal experience, that this exact process is at the very heart of Karate training.

So many of the things we "learn" and "practice" require memorization and protocol, and yet I think this is actually not the real learning.
They are surface distractions (drills?) concealing another learning process which is taking place beneath our radar.

The reason I believe this is because I have experienced it, so I need no magazines or guru-texts, or outside affirmations to verify it -- I know what I have experienced.

I know this is shakey ground in the "show-me" mentality we live in. I can't amaze you on demand -- sorry. (I have anecdotes if you inquire!)

But over the years, I have experienced quite a number of "emergences" (not spelled incorrectly) that have convinced me of this (for me ) reality.

Hope I haven't hijacked the thread, I just thought that these musings might be relevant to it.

~N~

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:04 am

Excellent

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:31 pm

well for me it is very simple

.........I only use very few techniques. Mostly drawn from boxing and Thai boxing. That is all that I need and quite frankly they work...in the past I've studied lots of different MA's picked up a couple of blackbelts etc and learned loads of techniques...especially in aikido.
A lot of that was great fun, but for self defence I like to keep it basic and strong and hard. Conditioning to me means physical fitness, being able to punch hard and fast for a couple of minutes non stop and being physically strong...so I lift weights, shadow box and punch the heavy bag...I also practice low kicks etc

because I don't have a rule book........the problem with MA's is that folks see stuff that they think will work or that they think looks cool and before you know it they are doing cr*ppy ineffective techniques and over emphasising really useless stuff

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:39 am

Jorvik:

I think you have a good balance -- boxing and low kicks for self defense.

Most attackers are likely going to use these tactics, since they have no higher training.
What they do is watch highly-trained professional "fighters" on TV, and then try to use these "techniques" in real life, expecting equivalent results, with no training. ( And no referees.)

So, if you prepare to deal with these simple, un-trained attacks, you're on good ground for the un-trained majority.
By this I mean attackers who try to use what they've seen on TV, with no specific training as to what actually make these techniques work, or even cognizant of the rules-set in which they are applied.

I think your approach can easily deal with these cases, even if you feel the Uechi-training you're getting is less than adequate.

~N~

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:52 am

When we first enter ,fight methods we have little or no idea regarding the methodology ,sometimes what we think is quality is not ,other times straight away yes we spot the differance .
Most who come to martial arts are not natural fighters ,it takes quality instruction to make them natural .

And remember we lie to ourselves ,thinking we are natural .
A fighter I knew called Tex curran wanted to supplement his ability [he was getting older ] with uechi ,straight away he could spot that at that time my students did not look natural ,"he told me dead straight these were not fighters Max." It takes Quality instruction to turn them into real fighters .
Tex , did not have the patience to learn uechi ,he lacked a quality called patience ,top quality will or must involve patience .

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:43 am

Part of me agrees and part of me does not. We're critters - we have a critter brain. That critter brain has known how to fight for thousands of years. However, most of time it flips on during extreme momemts. So I think there is a trick to getting someone to fight naturally under unnatural conditions. Relatively friendly dojo training is not, by evolutionary standards, a natural place to turn on the critter brain and fight.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:59 am

Quote
"So, if you prepare to deal with these simple, un-trained attacks, you're on good ground for the un-trained majority.
By this I mean attackers who try to use what they've seen on TV, with no specific training as to what actually make these techniques work, or even cognizant of the rules-set in which they are applied.

I think your approach can easily deal with these cases, even if you feel the Uechi-training you're getting is less than adequate."

Well firstly Neil let me say how glad I am that you have not said that I am knocking Uechi

............because I'm not. what I am knocking is bad karate, and it comes in many different styles....as to the business of untrained attacks you are quite wrong, my training methods come about because of the different systems that I have studied, I have taken what I think valuable and dumped what I think is useless

.....also as I work in law and order I get to read about street violence in the society that I live in, so that helps as well.................The idea that because you do a martial art you will only have to deal with the top 10% or 5% of folks is wrong, very ................even disturbingly wrong, don't ever think that way...don't ever think that you are tough enough to take what life can throw at you, because you may be very badly surprised

Think of what I have said as a "training method".like Mccarthy has his most common attacks.I have a basic method, to this I add a strategy..................basically that is what I look for in a martial art, something to make me better...occasionally as with this last club they were teaching stuff which if I had listened would have made me worse

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:48 am

A purpose of karate is to get us back in touch with the instincts man shared with animals ,and that was written a long time ago I think in Gem sensei's first uechi book.
Some who come to the dojo are in touch more or less anyway .
Lots of pretty tough individuals have left karate for good ,one reason being karate was not providing that naturalness ,in other words it had become robotic ,when push came to shove they resorted to their animalness which they always had ,tooth and claw ,their karate did not help them out one iota .

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:02 am

Max that is a good observation

and I more or less agree..but there is more than that as well. On these forums we mostly think that we know what other folks are talking about i.e. we relate things to our own understanding
This is an international forum with folks from all over the world.....and Uechi is practised very differently in different places. I don't think most folks would like the last school that I trained in

.....for one thing they did no basics at all

I first started Uechi many years ago, the guy teaching it couldn't fight

...which still confuses me, how can somebody who cannot fight teach a fighting art

.at the club there was a Cannadian who was a brown belt, who had learned his Uechi in Cannada or the US, he was superb, 10 times better than the instructor. after beating that instructor at sparring I decided to try another style so I did Goju..and I mentioned the Uechi teacher to my new instructor, who told me that he had been one of his blue belts, but had decided to go to Okinawa to learn karate.....his opinion was that he shouldn't teach because he couldn't fight

.....................that guy no longer teaches but sadly his legacy lives on in clubs like this last one I visited

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:16 pm

Jorvick , I understand what you are saying .

I think it worked a bit like this [in some cases ] in relaitionship to your confusion why someone could teach karate and not really be able to fight , plus no disrespect to anyone also by the way .
First of all I think its difficult to be able fight from any kata ,using that kata in a natural way ,under pressure that is ,a example is; I am still waiting to see someone fight from Kushanku .
Legions could not fight from kata ,above a kick an a punch and a slap type parry ,it was mostly linear ,it could save you here and there by the way , but it was not what say Kushanku was all about .But we have to start somewere ,And our teaching instructor who can't really fight is only one amongst many ,even normally good fighting men can't fight from the kata ,or understand the kata ,other than if its spoon fed [to understand the kata]
Jorvick in my own ballywack ,karate dojo numbered close to forty ,now there is about 3 left ,and most of the instructors are more than likely on training nights laid on the settee watching coronation st ,or east enders .
Another departure line to me as been the three nights per week ,or down to two for karate ,yet still wanting high grades ,the illusion goes on and on .

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:29 pm

Well to me Sanchin seemed to offer a good guard stance.really like a boxers stance.the hands are up to guard the head.........the legs are placed in such a way that the groin is quite well protected ...from there you have a practical stance to fight...next you add to this things that will assist you

..........now unfortunately some people are really stupid and instead of adding things to assist them they throw away those things and in their stead introduce things which don't assist them

As you know I draw a lot from boxing .reason being is that most streetfighters are going to use those type of skills..........and so that is what you need to learn to fight against.
I always find it funny that the Okinawans went to China learned their kung-Fu came back got dressed in their own clothes,labelled it in their own language changed the kung fu to suit themselves.......and then in the West we get it.....and say that it is a "Tradition" .and we must now all wear Okinawan clothes to practise it

learn Hogun......and if we practice it to fight against folks in our own country we are somehow blaspheming.........................As you well know Max the most popular arts in our country now are Thai boxing/kick boxing and MMA............I can see a time when karate either moves on or dies out

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:00 pm

But it won't be in my lifetime.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:18 pm

well let's say it may become a minority pastime....as popular as that other great art origami

MikeK · Post by **MikeK** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:10 pm

I can see a time when karate either moves on or dies out...well let's say it may become a minority pastime

In my opinion all three processes are well under way.