Uechi vs Headlocks

[Van Canna]

This should be fun to discuss here.

A friend of mine, a State trooper, asks

Does your martial art style have a defense against headlocks? Any good ones for defending against rear chokes and side headlocks?

Mind you, he is studying some form of BJJ, where they teach that.

But he wants to know specifically what we have in our style and how it would be used against such locks, something police officers are likely to be up against.

I don't hink he wants to hear "well, it is built into our katas"

[f.Channell]

Uechi=no
Jujitsu and Judo =yes

This is similiar to what I teach my students.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5leNdeBHWI

Of course maybe I have to look "deeper." Not a lot of time here either if the guy is real good at choking your ear drum will be blowing out of your head in 5 seconds, or 7 seconds to pass out.
Folks may say the rear "pigeon poke" in Seisan is all you need but I don't think so.

F.

[MikeK]

Does your martial art style have a defense against headlocks? Any good ones for defending against rear chokes and side headlocks?

I could be snarky and say, "yes, shoot him in the head from 6 ft out", but I won't. It's a pretty generic question.

Things to consider:
As with anything there is an early phase, mid phase and late phase, and what you do may be different upon which phase you are in.

Are either of you armed and how is the environment coming into play?

Is the other guy trying to control you, choke you out or using the head lock to set up something else?

Just a few considerations I've learned from training with guys who did this kind of thing for a living.

[Glenn]

Uechi=no
Jujitsu and Judo =yes

This is similiar to what I teach my students.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5leNdeBHWI

How is what is shown in this video not found in Uechi? Basically all the defender does is attack the groin with a basic strike, circle (wauke) an arm around to grab (tiger claw) the face and extend the attacker's balance backward, and then step through striking the rear of the attacker's knee with your knee in the process. This is "built into our kata" pretty much everywhere. The only real difference is it is being done while being held bent over, instead of facing the opponent while upright as we normally visualize the kata moves.

Striking to the eye's first would be another option, and actually may work better because striking the attacker in the groin will likely make him start to go forward and down, and you with him. Striking to the eyes would likely make him start to go backward, even if only by flinch, which you could continue with the circle, grab, and leg take-out.

[Robb in Sacramento]

Van:

But what if, “it's in our kata” is the answer? Many of the defenses against a rear choke attack begin with getting one's body behind the attacker using a step that looks remarkably like a step used in San Chin. Many of the defenses involve hammering the back of a hand with a pointy thing like a one knuckle punch. Many of the defenses involve lowering one's center of gravity by dropping one's hips below the attacker, much like certain sequences in some Uechi kata. Many involve tucking the chin and protecting the wind pipe, which might explain why certain seniors occasionally check San Chin by striking to the throat.

I don't really know if the answer, “it’s in the kata” will be satisfying for many. I do, however, know that when I did have Correctional Officers training with me, they found the techniques we have in Uechi to be effective for addressing rear attacks, including chokes. That said, I am reminded that if somebody really knows what they are doing, and they get your back, your ability to defend yourself and your potential survival will be severely compromised.

There was a shorin ryu teacher here in Sacramento, Dick Derhiem, who passed away a few years ago. You really didn’t want him to grab you, especially from behind.

Fortunately, much like with punching, most people don’t know what they are doing and muck up chokes by being too aggressive and using too much upper body strength and leaving certain other parts of their bodies exposed to a counter attack. Protecting those parts is why they have rules in MMA.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

[Bill Glasheen]

There's already a lot of good information here.

I liked Mike's initial response.

As with anything there is an early phase, mid phase and late phase, and what you do may be different upon which phase you are in.

This reminds me of a pint-sized female student asking what to do if a bad guy lifts her up in the air with a Full Nelson. My response? Don't let yourself get in that advanced state of control loss. Anticipation and preemption rule when it comes to things like head locks.

Two people get a vote in this situation. One is attempting to execute the headlock. The other is attempting not to be in or stay in the headlock. Both have things they can do to execute their battle plan. The person with the best execution wins.

My special forces instructor had us work briefly with responding to a sudden garret wire choke. He used a shoe string to make his point. After much experimentation with the students, the consensus response was immediately turn 90 degrees and THEN worry about what to do next. If your first move wasn't decisive, then it was all over very quickly.

The key here in the early stages is maintaining control of center. If you have that, then you can turn, rotate, drive, step behind the person's legs for a hip throw, etc., etc.

Conversely the key to executing a good rear naked choke is first to kick the back of the knee. If they suddenly arch back and you get the choke in, it's pretty much all over for the person being choked.

Understanding how this works is important. Blood chokes work when BOTH jugular veins are occluded, preventing venous return from the brain. No venous return means no arterial blood coming in, which leads to a KO in 5 to 10 seconds. If you manage by rotation or whatever to free up at least one of those jugulars from the vice AND you can keep the airway protected by keeping the chin down, then you still have a fighting chance.

If you are in the advanced stages of a choke and you don't trust what will happen afterwards, then this is the time to put up or shut up with the pointy/grabby techniques. Are you willing to stick a thumb in the eye and pluck an eyeball out? It's not that difficult physically. It is however psychologically a difficult thing to do. Are you willing to reach and grab a testicle and crush it? Can you stomp a foot? Can you bite whatever until the flesh is in your mouth? These are the last-ditch effort things you have at your disposal.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Actually it is not in the kata, but it is all in sanchin, which is not a kata

Great response.

Now who wants to be the one to approach my state trooper friend and tell him it's all in sanchin_ he just needs to go deeper

[cxt]

Van

Depends on if the Trooper is asking for as a Trooper or private citizen.

A couple of responses to a headlock that I was taught are the kind of thing that an LEO would likely be sued for using---excessive force and all that....that a private citizen would be much more likely to skate for using.....except of coruse for using such "dangerous"........"trained"......."potentially lethal"......."expert" "martial arts moves".....and "overreacting".....

Troopers/LEO's have a bit more to consider than do private citizen.....generally.

[jorvik]

Well how are they going to get you in a headlock? and what for?..is this a surprise attack?..........I was in a headlock once , and the guy was hitting me in the face with his other hand ....I got ahold of his family jewels and gave a big ole twist to his sack ....he let go and ran off screaming .and limping..........headlocks aren't much...but cranks and strangles are...in fact they are really what a headlock should be leading up to

[Van Canna]

CXT...excellent point that was missed in this discussion.

[Van Canna]

headlocks aren't much...but cranks and strangles are...in fact they are really what a headlock should be leading up to

Correct, Ray...this is the one thing that worries him as there have been such situations....also to be careful of is:

_ doing what needs to be done while protecting:

1. Himself
2.His weapon from being snatched.

[Bill Glasheen]

If we're talking about the specific situation of an armed LEO in a headlock, then there are things that can be practiced.

Fred may know more about this. I am under the impression that blood chokes (rear naked choke) are somewhat variable in their ability to put someone under. Some seem to go down pretty readily with the right holder. Others (including yours truly) don't go down as quickly or readily because of neck anatomy.

The mechanism by which a blood choke works is mostly understood. It's a brain blood flow thing. But there are other factors involved, including the inadvertant stimulation of the carotid sinus, the level of panic of the head lock recipient, etc.

My point? If I am armed and the head lock comes on, that's two arms I don't have to worry about, other than what they are doing while preoccupied with my head/neck. For AT LEAST 5 seconds I have the chance to reach down, unholster my semiauto, and plant some lead in my tormentors brain. It's either him or me after all. I can't trust what he'll do with that firearm after I go night night. Might as well take it.

Plus... A LEO can get in trouble for using all variations of nasty self-defense moves. But use of his sidearm? That has special dispensation. Go figure...

I am thinking that the more calm one is while executing, the more likely one can get that firearm out and a round off. And you know what that translates to? Scenario training.

Ray does bring up a good point about head cranks vs. blood chokes. Some of those things are downright scary. Seichin once had a nice head crank move in it that Itokazu choreographed. They took it out... of the "official" kata. Some of us still do it.

Anyhow, just some thoughts to consider.

- Bill

[MikeK]

My point? If I am armed and the head lock comes on, that's two arms I don't have to worry about, other than what they are doing while preoccupied with my head/neck. For AT LEAST 5 seconds I have the chance to reach down, unholster my semiauto, and plant some lead in my tormentors brain. It's either him or me after all. I can't trust what he'll do with that firearm after I go night night. Might as well take it.

Take that further; a knife, a credit card, a cork screw, glass, a rock, a small stick, almost anything applied to the right area can also possibly change the equation. Cheat, cheat and cheat some more.

[MikeK]

Fortunately, much like with punching, most people don’t know what they are doing and muck up chokes by being too aggressive and using too much upper body strength and leaving certain other parts of their bodies exposed to a counter attack. Protecting those parts is why they have rules in MMA.

That's what a lot of it boils down to Robb, who makes the critical mistake and will the other guy take advantage of it.

[hoshin]

in my opinion the simple answer is ...NO...

our system is not designed to be a "if he does this ,then you do that" style of defense. that is why the cop out responses. BJJ has a very good system structure to deal with questions like that, we do not.