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 Post subject: Wilding?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:22 pm 
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This is the second time this week that I heard Such stories.

One from a dear friend, who while in the hospital for a few days, learned from his room-mate that he had been viciously assaulted by a gang of punks in Lawrence Ma, about 1:30 PM, as he was returning home from having had a beer in a nearby pub.

The man was in his sixties…had done nothing to provoke the attack. He had been beaten so bad that his spleen had to be removed and one arm placed in a cast.

The other came from one of my students who had run into an old man, a friend, who was so badly banged up that it looked like he had been hit by a car.

The man related that he had stopped in a fairly safe area of Brockton Mass, about 9:30 PM_ about to get out of his car_ when he was set upon by a bunch of punks who beat him senseless.

No money or property was taken in either instance.

It seems attacks on older persons are becoming more frequent around town.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Hi Van,

I wonder if it was some type of "gang initiation."
Anytime there are a large group of young people you have to be on guard sadly. It is foolish to judge based on race or clothing. Just err on the safe side and stay away.
If I saw a large group hanging around I would drive somewhere else.

I was with my brother when we were attacked by a group, lucily I was 27 at the time and able to protect myself. He was surprised and had his nose broken. Older folks seem to think the younger people will respect them like we were trained by our parents to do. This is no longer true. I have no foolish notions from my Judo years competing that the ability to defend yourself doesn't diminish with age. Oddly no Traditional Martial Artist friends wanted to discuss the incident with me after it ocurred.

Safer with the blinders on......

F.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Good post _ Fred.

Against a gang style attack or against any multiple opponents...TMA or not...the victim will always lose.

Even with a gun, assuming the victim has one and can get to it...and has what it takes to use it....the end result might still be the same.

Martial arts dreams go out the window quick enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:30 am 
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I knew a woman who went out to see a gang of 9 youths who were unhappy that her son broke up with a girl in their clique and went after him.

She thought they would respect her age and maturity and she could reason with them.

They beat her with sticks and chains and some garden implements off her own front yard.

She credited her survival to me with not falling to the ground. Somehow in the melee something in her mind kept telling her that.

Only the ring leader ever went to court, in spite of her naming every one of them. They plead out in different ways, with other info the police were looking for.

In her mind with her survival she won.

F.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:21 am 
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Pretty damn sad how they all seem to get away with it. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:34 pm 
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Multiple attackers... an impressive response:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8_zWBQXZj4

8O
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUrfB0Xc8ME&feature=related

Did not fight back... lucky to be alive?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9mL5DKjnkY&feature=related

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:25 pm 
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Please notice that in each of the "successful" defenses (even tho carried out by trained fighters) the fight was essentially one-on-one. Yes, they had to deal with multiple attackers, but they were never "overwhelmed". In the third case, which was "unsuccessful" the attackers literally swarmed the victim... leaving little chance for him to do much defending of any use.

I have had both types of encounters... "successful" and "unsuccessful". When thinking about them, nearly all successful encounters, even if being done by multiple attackers, allowed for and occurred in a basically one-on-one fashion. On the other hand, once "swarmed" and taking it from every way imaginable, that encounter was doomed to be "unsuccessful". This may seem like trivial points and observations to some. However, IMNSHO, that is the way to train for any multiple attacker situation... to turn it into essentially a one-on-one fight taking on the multiple attackers without being swarmed.

The very first video shows this concept perfectly. Using positioning, the environment and even the bodies of other attackers, the "bad@$$" was able to make a potential swarm situation into something "manageable".
If the kid in the third video had been trained to do the same thing, there is the possibility that he could have positioned himself so that he wasn't or couldn't get swarmed.

Sometimes, even if you're trained (or think you're trained) for it, you can screw up and get yourself into a position where you're swarmed. Once that happens the odds of your success drop dramatically... and even worse, it is extremely difficult to get out of the position of being swarmed once you're in it. I've watched literally hundreds of hours of multiple attacker encounters over the last ~15 years (everything from VHS tapes to DVDs to internet videos) and the only time I've seen anyone actually get out of a "swarmed" situation has been in martial arts demos on how to do it. In each of those cases, IMNSHO, had the attackers truly been hell-bent on hurting the "victim", those defense techniques wouldn't have worked. (Doesn't mean I'm against working in that area, just that I think I'm more of a "realist" based on my own experiences.)

Again looking at the third video, the defender started out (I believe this is usually done instinctively, so GO WITH IT) correctly by trying to back up into a position where all of his attackers were in front of him. Unfortunately (and this is what often happens even to trained fighters who get swarmed), his attackers maneuvered faster and surrounded him. At the point where they are coming at him simultaneously from different sides/angles, his defense is pretty well doomed.

Again looking at the first video, the defender is continuously moving to reposition in order to prevent attacks from coming at different sides/angles simultaneously. The result speaks for itself.

Again, IMNSHO, a couple of big mistakes that people make include thinking that any gang of punks is going to respect you in any way (I.E.: the older folks who think they can reason with these animals)... the only thing they respect is strength, not age... and meeting them on their terms (your yard and maybe even your house are still their terms unless you actively change that)... once they have you on their terms, you start out with the worst disadvantage(s)... you have to always put them at a disadvantage (a whole area of understanding and study in and of itself!)...

JMNSHO... YMMV...

On a related note, I have ZERO respect for punks who can't stand up and take on someone one-on-one... and that's translated into ZERO tolerance when they get their gangs together, start talking trash and then act all tough. Word of warning... they're setting you up for a swarm! Word of advice... best bet: s-uck it up, act the coward, let them feel all big and walk away; better bet (only if the situation allows it and you can): put 'em down one-on-one hard, fast, brutal and mercilessly! Then dare them to get up... (those are both from experience as well... and both ways within the last year...)

As my Daddy once quoted to me:

Yea tho I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil...
Cause I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley!

(Gawd, I miss him sometimes...)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Speaking of multiples - I'm re-posting this. He probably could have avoided trouble as per Panther's good advice, but it's not absolutely clear.

I think it's interesting that he is able to get back to his feet after being knocked down.

Otherwise, he does a good job of staying in motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICPVt0rH ... re=related

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:42 pm 
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Thanks Chris. Good video.

I REALLY hate it when gangs/punks ("haters" with no distinction for race, etc.) can't confront the ones they want to go after one-on-one. This just shows that they're really a bunch of cowards. Deadly cowards, but still cowards.

He was doing well until he lost his balance and got swarmed. If they hadn't letup, he could have really been in trouble. Make no mistake about it, IMNSHO, you can be really good & well trained and still eff up. (Been there, done that... broke the mug, tore up the T-shirt for rags... 8O ) He was doing everything "right" and one little slip nearly cost him. As you point out, he recovered admirably, but usually (and I believe in this case) that was just some good ole fashioned "dumb luck".

Also the gang/punks did two other things that I think people should notice:

1) they went for cover/weapons when things didn't go easy for them... (the cover of the pickup truck and one of them is standing in the back of the truck with a board - 2X4 or something similar)
2) when the going got tough, especially when other people started showing up, they beat feet outta there. Another indication of their cowardice.

On a lighter note. I like the Denis Leary quote at the end... My 3-year-old fits it perfectly... we happen to be caucasian "muts" (scottish, english, cherokee, french, catawba, and a few others in there for good measure... but never "hyphenated"... just American) and my 3 year-old goes to a Kenyan-American Daycare, plays with other kids of all manner of race, creed, color, etc., etc. and the only thing that's "hated" is bed-time! (Although I've been threatened by my wife on having MY mouth washed out with soap because the other day when she honked in traffic a tiny voice piped up from the car seat... "Damn Moron!" 8O :oops: And I thought I'd been really good too! Guess it coulda been worse...)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:39 am 
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Panther
Quote:
Sometimes, even if you're trained (or think you're trained) for it, you can screw up and get yourself into a position where you're swarmed. Once that happens the odds of your success drop dramatically... and even worse, it is extremely difficult to get out of the position of being swarmed once you're in it.


Very true. Under the unexpected chaos_we are likely to make terrible mistakes and experience different types of freezes …something that will outlined by Rory Miller in his new upcoming book “Facing violence” _

Avoiding the swarm once it launches…is extremely difficult…the best survival action is to be able to run. If we stay in the fight for whatever reason….we shall mostly perish.

Again, survival is predicated on our ability to identify the threat, to predict the outcome, decide the best course of action [under a fogged mind] and execute immediately.
Quote:
you have to always put them at a disadvantage (a whole area of understanding and study in and of itself!)...


Very true. Panther can you get a discussion going on this? Can you provide pointers based on your experiences? I know you have had many.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:44 am 
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Quote:
Word of advice... best bet: s-uck it up, act the coward, let them feel all big and walk away; better bet (only if the situation allows it and you can): put 'em down one-on-one hard, fast, brutal and mercilessly! Then dare them to get up... (those are both from experience as well... and both ways within the last year...)


Panther ...I did not realize you have had such incidents in the last year.

Can you be more detailed and graphic as to when, where, and why they happened?

Much to learn from you, my friend.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Hi Van-Sensei,

As you know I was picking up some extra $$ by doing some security work on the side. With your advice and support, I don't do that very much now. But...

Back away and just let it slide: Around the first of the year I grabbed a kid in the club to toss him out because he was smoking some weed. Now, I'm pretty open about the fact that I'm against the war on (some) drugs, but it is illegal, there were detail officers in the club who smelled it as well, tossing people out who smoke inside (even cigarettes) is part of what I was getting paid to do, and I could lose the job & the club lose its license if I let it slide. Soooo... I go to the guy, who's smoking right in front of me, and tell him he has to leave. He drops the last bit of a roach right on the carpet, stomps it out and says, "I'm not smoking anything" as he blows reefer smoke in my face. I grab him to toss him out and get confronted by about 5-6 of his homies. It gets ugly, but I get him out. No help from any of the details who watched it all BTW. :x At the end of the night I'm leaving and they're waiting for me... along with a few more of their "crowd" who all watched and followed me to where I parked that night. (They're not from this area and I know that, so I'm not worried that they're going to come back for me some other day. Also, I always park right in front of the club, but this night was a "special" show and there wasn't any parking in front so I parked in the alley in back.) I get "lectured" about "dissin'" this guy and told that they're going to "teach me a lesson". We'd already traded a few little shots in the club earlier when I was escorting this punk out... This was different because I was completely alone, surrounded and at a big disadvantage. Sooooo... I immediately and profusely apologize for any "dissin'" and UNintended slight (between us... a bunch of crap) explain to them that I was doing them a favor because the cop would have arrested their friend. After a little bit of my being very humble, they said a bunch of racist things to/about me, puffed their chests and walked away. Fine by me... they felt big and no one got hurt... (I always carry... spray, knife, 6 D-cell maglight, hi-cap .40... so I could have handled it... It just wasn't worth it basically over someone's "pride"... mine or theirs.) I went home, but I had some serious words with the other security, the club owner and the detail officers.

A very similar incident happened again a few months back and that precipitated me talking with you (and others) here and deciding it just isn't worth it for the cheap $$.

Hard, fast, brutal, and mercilessly: There was a guy who was acting very drunk. He was also flying a gang bandana. (strictly not allowed. They really hated it when I told them to put them away.) He was using his "intoxication" as an excuse to try to grab/grope any woman he wanted to. I had warned him a number of times to leave the ladies alone. He warned ME that his homies were in the house and they'd kill me if I bothered him again. When he went to grab a girl the next time I tossed him out. His "homies" tired to step in to stop me from tossing him, but other security took care of them. It was only about an hour or so before closing. After we closed, we were clearing the area and getting people to their cars. This guy is leaning on a building a few doors down. I told him to just leave and go home. Some of his group tried to pull a distraction by attacking one of the other security guys and drawing everyone else (security, cops, attention) to that fight. I saw what was happening, got myself into a protected defensive situation (back to the building for one) and waited for his homies to come out of the woodwork. They did, but I was ready. This wasn't like the other time, this gang wasn't going to do any talking, just hitting. 6 D-cell maglights can be really... ummmm.... "bright" at lighting things up. (two down, lights out really quick) Then this punk that was acting "intoxicated" earlier pulled a knife on me. Classic... right? I was ready to toast him for that and I was planning on making him pay bigtime for doing it. I broke his arm at the elbow, he dropped the blade (they still have it with a "collection" of them they've got down at the club in the office), he fell down in the middle of the street where we'd ended up and started screaming like a freakin baby. I didn't even get a second shot in on him! Once he was hurt he curled up and cried. :roll: A security guard and a cop showed up at this point and sprayed down the rest who disappeared like cockroaches... with the exception of the ones who were down & out and some of their "ladies". If "backup" hadn't showed up, I might have been forced to escalate where I really didn't want to go, but I've learned not to live in the "it could have been worse" way... It ended the way it ended. Only three arrests were made... all for assaulting LEOs. Everything else was chalked up to "rival gangs". (Been there before, so it didn't surprise me...) Actually, the 3 I took out were sent to the hospital and I've never heard about it again.

So... I only "help out" with security there when I know it's going to be a non-ghetto/gang crowd. They've fired the promoter that was catering to those types and they're working on bringing in a better clientele. I've only gone to help out with a couple of private parties and to help with the sound system since leaving awhile back after your advice. No more "incidents" to share from there... although I've been asked to work a big show coming up.

Funny story tho... This past Spring, I was asked to "personally" guard Ludacris when he performed there. When he got out of the limo, I handed him a cigar and told him who I was. He barely looked at me until I said, "I just want you to know that I've got a wife and young'un... if this turns into a 'Biggie' situation, you're gonna die." He stopped, laughed and declared for everyone around that I was alright. :lol: I wonder if he tells people in Hollywood about that...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Panther, good stories -- made all the better by the fact that you are able to tell them yourself -- much better than having them told post mortem! 8O Thanks for sharing.

This thread came up in class this morning so we talked about multiples and the many strategies for dealing for about an hour.

Some of the stuff that came up --

-Darren Lauer's two articles on dealing with mutiples.
-common themes -- which have come up here like 'lining them up' so you only need to deal with one at a time -- or 'managing the group'
-environmental positioning like placing your back against a wall or into a corner so no surprises come from behind.
-making your attacks count.

We talked a bit about recent attacks here in town -- a few of the victims (no training) known to us so we had access to their stories and and someone made the observation that most of the worst strikes came from behind and were not seen/anticipated by the defender. individuals in groups were described above as being cowardly and perhaps nopwhere is this more true than when one observes this basic group strategy: distract your prey from the front then strike him from behind.

How does one deal with what one doesn't know is coming?

I guess that's the million dollar question.

So we spent the next hour woking our way out of multiples attack scenarios and came to the conclusion that the best bet is to keep focussed, strike with powerful intent, keep moving, look for escape and WANT to survive.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:28 pm 
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I can attest (from a number of first-hand experiences) that THE most important thing is the desire and WILL to survive!

When I walked into a situation where I was basically in Condition White and when things happened I hesitated (it will NEVER happen again... and I'm STILL paying the price going on 15 years later... I hesitated because of a previous altercation... different story.) that was when I was caught by surprise and "blind-sided". Surviving became letting the nurses and doctors know that I was NOT dead and was NOT going to be! My mistake... and a costly one...

How do you plan for something you don't know is coming?

EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED! Especially in a multiple attacker situation... You will read that (said and phrased differently, but same concept) from everyone from Van-Sensei, Rory Miller, Tony Blauer, on down the list. Personally, I think two of the most important things for people to know are: 1) Cultivate the survival attitude. Meaning to know that no matter how good or bad something turns out, you WILL survive! and 2) ALWAYS be ready for anything. Meaning to plan on things happening that will make your struggle way more difficult than you thought it would be.

EXPECT that blind-siding 2X4 from the brother of the girlfriend of the punk who's started crap with you... Cause it might happen, so you had better be ready. EXPECT that someone in that group of punks has a bat/knife/gun and plan accordingly. Now, I don't wear body armor (usually) and the odds are with you that the group doesn't have a gun, but you never know. Knives, chains, bricks, bats, etc. are all very common with these thugs, so PLAN on them...

On other occasions (both before and after my mistake), I've been completely aware and ready for whatever. (Long story short on that particular night I was with a group who I thought had my back and... needless to say they didn't and then I hesitated. I'm more careful of my assessments of groups I'm in and I won't ever get that complacent again... my life and safety are too important... and so are my loved ones'.)

Earlier this year (when the "drunk" pulled his knife on me) I had started out back to the wall. But once things had started, it was way more advantageous for me to take it to them instead of stand my ground. (I'm sure that Rory or Van-Sensei or others can explain this better than me, but...) It was best to start out where they couldn't surprise or blind-side me, but once the first blow was thrown, I could have easily been trapped and overwhelmed if I'd stayed there. At the right instance it was best to move out and start laying a path of destruction to shock and scare them. It doesn't hurt to have death in your eyes and I've learned to let loose my inner demons (visibly) over the years. (I have to be careful sometimes... I've used that "look" with someone who didn't really deserve it and scared them without meaning to. But it has it's uses and purpose.)

As I said in an earlier post, I haven't learned this stuff so much from "classes" as I have from watching literally hundreds of multiple (and even individual, but mainly multiple) attacker videos... I've found that a lot of this stuff is really hard to teach/learn in a dojo setting. To be honest with you, even tho I have trophies from my days when I was rated and taught (a very long time ago), when I work out with people these days I'm sure they think I'm a real wimp. My stuff looks like crap now and I have no delusions otherwise. (Then again, it's not that bad since I was told after my mistake that I wouldn't ever walk again... sometimes doctors is so dumb... :lol: ) Those who've worked out with me can tell you, I'm not kidding about that. There's more to it than having great and pretty techniques... you also need the right attitude. Ask and answer the questions BEFORE you get there.

Enough of this stuff...


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 Post subject: Interesting....
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:48 pm 
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Although this is a one on one confrontation, and the video doesn't show how the altercation started, it is an interesting video. The title indicates the would be victim is a vietnam vet that is being harrassed on a bus.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/vid ... 8044052737

(you may have to cut and paste, and / or be logged in to facebook). Guess that's why I don't work in IT or tech support. :roll:

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