Rank Opinions or Opinions on Rank

[Rick Wilson]

In the February 2003 issue of Black Belt magazine on page 154 they have a retrospective on the December 1966 issue (66 pages long sold for 50 cents Vo.4, No,12).

Here is a quote from back then “In an article that questions the worth of the modern black belt, Kenpo founder Ed Parker opines: ‘I don’t think that rank is important at all. What is important is how much karate a student learns.’”

A while back I posted a thread about the Dan test in Edmonton where I stated “I think over time I have come to have the right perspective on rank and Dan tests. I enjoyed it. I look at this as a time to reflect and offer some thanks to those who make, and have made, my study of martial arts possible.”

I think from recent posts most will know my opinion of rank itself is much the same as Ed Parker’s was in 1966.

I have been thinking about rank over the last while and the need for it or the lack of need for it. My students were surprised that I just got around to posting my certificate at the dojo even though I have had it for months.

When I tested I was glad I was able to do a job my teacher was happy with. I was appreciative that he thought enough of my karate to put me up for testing. As for the test itself, other than my Kata and the question David Sensei ask me to present on, it really proved little to me about karate. In all honesty rank really means little to me.

What a person has done and is doing means so much more to me.

Well, I am not shy about my opinions but what does everyone else think.

What is the opinion out there on rank?

1) Do you see rank as important?

2) Why (if you care to share)?

3) Did the rank of your instructor influence you choosing his school?

4) Does rank make us more legitimate?

5) Could an association run without rank?

6) Would you train if no ranks were handed out?


By the way this is just to know what people think. This is asking for your opinion. You cannot be wrong (only misguided ).

[Deep Sea]

I work with a guy, a good friend an associate, with whom I've had a number of discussions about Ed Parker. He is a couple of generations down from Ed Parker, and he loves him.

He gave me one of "Ed's" books to read once, then he got a new one for me. It is excellent reading and we can see a lot of our own style in Mr. Parkers words, and yet he so eloquently writes about much of what Uechi thinks they are learning but don't even talk about except when huddled in small private rumor groups.

The book is entitled "Mastering Kenpo. The Path to Excellence" and was written by Skip Hancock. This book transcends all martial arts styles. Skip, by the way, often gives seminars just west of Boston, and it's really worth it.

I wrote the words "Ed's book" because even though Skip wrote it, he considers his words a mere mirror of his former Sensei, Mr. Pasker.

Get the book. It's also worth it.

[jorvik]

HI Rick,
I think rank generally is unimportant....it doesn't really indicate anything.
I have seen some very poor blackbelts in all styles....I have seen tremendous brown belts...a lot of it is for monitary reasons or to keep people in an organisation.
What does it really indicate?.......doesn't mean you can fight. I even know of one "Champion" who, from what I have heard is great at point karate but couldn,t defend himself in a streetfight.
Consider boxing or wrestling, or the Chinese and Thais.....at the end of the the day rank only indicates that you know the syllabus of a style not that you are tremendous in that style.
Have you ever gone to other schools?....I've been to many different styles , in some of them I've been told to train with the beginners..when in sparring I've beaten all their blackbelts
..............I used to know a girl and she said to me " I used to be a blackbelt in Judo".......what she meant was, as she no longer trained ( and she had been an International) she no longer used the handle.......Respect

[RachelL]

You know that opinions are like ..xxx... everyone has one!

What is the opinion out there on rank?

1) Do you see rank as important?

Yes I do. Can you see the chaos at a tournament where everyone competes in the same divisions.

2) Why (if you care to share)?

I do not see it as the most important part of the training but I see it as being important in the structure of the chain of command. Rank was established to keep order in the military, otherwise who is going to listen to whom?rank instills discipline and order. Karate rank is a means for an instructor of a large group to know who is working at what level of understanding.
Personally I did not begin training to earn rank or think of the rank I just wanted to learn as much as possible and as I did the rank came.

3) Did the rank of your instructor influence you choosing his school?

No, it was one of only two schools in town and a friend was already at this one.
The instructor has a responsibility to their students to maintain their level of understanding and keep their rank current for the sake of the students who are at the school for rank.

4) Does rank make us more legitimate?

I don't undertsand legitimate, but if I were just starting out school hunting I'd want to train at a school that has credentials and a foundation. It is more believable if a teacher is associated with and recognized by his peers and has status in the organization.
Would you go to a college that issues world wide recognized degrees or Joe's college up the street?

5) Could an association run without rank?

I assume you are asking about a karate association.
Yes, an association can run without rank. There must however be an understanding of a pecking order. Someone has to call things to order.
The person with the most experience is not necessarily the best person to be in charge sometimes.

6) Would you train if no ranks were handed out?

I say yes knowing what I know now. But I do not think the general population thinks the same way. just ask the parents of the kids at your dojo.
In my opinion some students get to a point in their training where they understand that the rank is symbolic of time spent in working at their art.


Some people dance for the art form, some for the exercise.
Some people train in martial arts for the art and exercise , some for fighting skills.
Who is to say which choice is best under certain conditions?

[2Green]

The only ranks I think are important are the White Belt (your commitment to begin), and the Black Belt (your commitment to begin).
All that other stripey stuff in between only impresses people who think color-levels are somehow absolute.
"Well, he/she's a --------Belt, so he/she can -------".

I think it's good for kids to have frequent color-rank steps, but for adults who are really in it for the training, what does it matter?
If you're good you're good; if you're not you're not, and no color-belt is going to change that.

I greatly respect white belts because the commitment to begin is, in a way, the largest of all the steps.
Once you become more familiar with the training the steps seem easier, but that first step is the big one.

I realize that in tournaments there must be some kind of matching or grading system, but that's way outside my experience.
I would assume, as in racing, that the idea is to be in a class (Belt-rank) in which you are at the top and therefore can out-perform the other same-color ranks, perhaps by deferring or delaying a promotion.
NM

[Stryke]

I`m less and less impressed by rank . It might be good for kids karate but cant see much more , People seem to concentrate on there next grade assuming the answers are just around the next corner (grading) .

I cant really argue that lots of gradings can provide a revenue rainbow , I do see the positives to rank In structure and control , the military comparisons a good one .... It`s just that I`d prefer students to ask questions , and even find there own answers , I think belts and rank systems actually hinder this in most Modern martial arts .

It depends what your after , many like martial arts for a sense of belonging , hoki rituals and grading sytems and esoteric babblings all go hand in hand with rank , Even wearing a gi , on the other hand Is there some worth In tradition ? , spiritual development etc , the martial arts is a lot about many things today , but Martial and Art is becoming sadly lacking , how many Great works of art where built on a production line .....

I think this is the next evolution of martial arts , the taking of the tradition and making it our own , throwing away the traditions that dont seem to give value to our training or goals , MMA is an example of this , I think the only thing that should be sacred is the kata , they should contain the essence of the style , everything else , ranks , traditions , drills , Bunkai etc should be free to evolve , Even then what If I start training an Uechi style Sanchin , Am I then an Uechika ?? ........... Ranks , Styles , traditions , are they all just a crutch ... ?

PS Im in an antagonistic mood , Im sure ill disagree with myself tomorrow

[2Green]

Ok, I can argue this.
Well - temperedly, I assure you.

Your line of reasoning only holds if you equate "Martial Arts" with "fighting skills".
Martial Arts are supposed to encompass and impart more than just fighting skills, which can be learned perhaps more effectively WITHOUT martial arts.
That's why we have kickboxing, etc., which are "just" the fighting skills.
So why bother getting into a Martial Art in the first place, why not just go to a boxing gym?
My personal argument is that people who are attracted to the Martial Arts are looking for something deeper, and if you strip off all the tradition and everything involved that brought the Art to where it is, then all that depth is gone.
And what remains, just the fighting skills by themselves, form a one-dimensional endeavour which is really not that effective or interesting.

One thing that intrigues me about Karate, and I spend a lot of time reading about it, is the concepts of how the human body can generate such incredible power through learned motions and conditioning.
The mechanics of fighting kinetics is already a vast, deep subject even to learn intellectually, never mind actually embarking on the training required to accomplish any degree of it.
Even stripping away the legends, the old masters had plenty of power and ability.
So this pursuit is kind of an attraction to me as I learn.

But take a "tradition" like performing Kata for a board of testers: is that really useful?
Well...does it serve a purpose?
I believe it does.
How about the brief meditation and simultaneous clapping at the end of a class, followed by a bow of respect to your teacher?
Useless trappings of a bygone romatic era?
I don't think so.
I think that a lot of these things serve purposes that aren't immediately visible.
So the problem with getting rid of traditions is that you first have to determine what purpose they serve, then decide if that purpose is fruitless or counter-productive, but the point is:
You first have to fully know what the purpose is.

Feel free to riposte argumentatively!!
NM

[jorvik]

Hi NM.
I know what you mean, Karate is much more than kicking the crap out of somebody. But! for it to have any authority.....you must be able to do just that....and well.
It's a philosophical method of self defence....a way of totally embracing life and accepting death at the same time. As they say in Euchi.....The simplest and the most profound..the beginning and the end.

[Stryke]

Great stuff , I was er aiming/hoping for this discussion when I posted above


Quote

Your line of reasoning only holds if you equate "Martial Arts" with "fighting skills".
Martial Arts are supposed to encompass and impart more than just fighting skills, which can be learned perhaps more effectively WITHOUT martial arts.
That's why we have kickboxing, etc., which are "just" the fighting skills.
So why bother getting into a Martial Art in the first place, why not just go to a boxing gym?

Ok so what else does martial arts Teach/Impart Ive got some ideas but I`d like to learn others , what does Martail arts teach us that wouldnt be imparted without the tradition and ceremony ? , what would be inaffective about your skills if you just learnt the techniques ? .... , and by the way Boxing and Kick boxing are Martial sports , Im sure they could be trained as Arts but it`s hardly the Ultimate in Self defence .

Quote


One thing that intrigues me about Karate, and I spend a lot of time reading about it, is the concepts of how the human body can generate such incredible power through learned motions and conditioning.
The mechanics of fighting kinetics is already a vast, deep subject even to learn intellectually, never mind actually embarking on the training required to accomplish any degree of it.
Even stripping away the legends, the old masters had plenty of power and ability.
So this pursuit is kind of an attraction to me as I learn.


Ok above I agree , can be totally pursued and learnt from kata , and can be pursued without any semblance of tradition , Is this some of the deeper stuff mentioned above ? , Its science nothing more nothing less


Quote

But take a "tradition" like performing Kata for a board of testers: is that really useful?
Well...does it serve a purpose?
I believe it does.
How about the brief meditation and simultaneous clapping at the end of a class, followed by a bow of respect to your teacher?
Useless trappings of a bygone romatic era?
I don't think so.
I think that a lot of these things serve purposes that aren't immediately visible.
So the problem with getting rid of traditions is that you first have to determine what purpose they serve, then decide if that purpose is fruitless or counter-productive, but the point is:
You first have to fully know what the purpose is.

Ok good opinion , now could you enlighten me ? , what purpose does it have ? , how long do i have to do something to be able to question its validity ? , 5 , 10 , 15 years ... a lifetime ? thats how long it takes to learn martial arts right , what do we get from observing an interpretation of a foriegn cultures religous practices ? , does it make us more asian and exotic , hmm dont we have our own equivalents ? , Do the Japanese practice chinese customs ? or just the kata , i honestly dont know ....... maybe they even adapted those


All the above Is devils advocate , Nothings meant to be personal but in the interest of learning our motivations .........

In summary

Spirit and spirituality, above determination and effort ,Is best left to religions or Individuals .

Courtesy and respect can and should be shown to anyone you train with , regardless of tradition , we have enough of or own ways to show this , and would be somewhat more sincere .

Effectiveness and Improvement can be done scientifically , we can test quantify , learn and adapt , just like the old masters did .

[2Green]

Stryke:
I rarely take apart replies, but I'll try to "make my point" by referring back to your post...

"What else does the Martial Arts impart..."
My answer is: control, humility,respect, the ability to guage your response from a level-headed standpoint and not be a bragging jock-head who just wants to prove how tough he/she is.

"What would be ineffective about your skills if you just learnt the techniques?"

This is the dream of every magazine- and- method reader: 5-minute techniques to bring any assailant down.
Stryke, YOU know this is fantasy...because you train. You know that techniques aren't enough.
You need the will, spirit and guts to really apply them, test them, refine them until they are something you can rely on.
Where/when is a person going to do that?
In the Dojo you get to face some pressure to see just how "killer" those techniques really are...not.
So if you just learn technique, I'm saying you miss the complete reality dimension.

...The mechanics of power...etc.
You state that this can be pursued through Kata...isn't that tradition?
Kata is more than science, it's the encyclopedia of your style, because it's like a living CD-ROM which suddenly explodes to life on the Dojo floor as your teacher performs a centuries-old portrayal of how the techniques are brought to life...
I think of Kata like freeze-dried coffee.If you don't add the water (you), then it's just lifeless data.
There is a TRADITION of preserving TECHNIQUE via DEMONSTRATION.
And how about the SPIRIT of how those techniques are performed?
There's a lot of SOUL in the SCIENCE of a good Kata!


"Performing Kata for a board, etc..."

Jeez, I hate to quote Bruce Lee to you, but remember the analogy about emptying the cup?
I think this applies not only to opening your mind to new knowledge, but also pouring out the EGO to make room for compassion, humility and respect for others.
You must have seen countless students who dropped out because they met their crossroads when their Kata fell apart while the class was watching, or they came to a personal hurdle because they couldn't help a classmate without becoming a bully, or couldn't become part of the group...a class has a life of its own...
I'll post more tomorrow...it's late, and so am I!
NM

[RachelL]

I was given this on a parchment long ago when I first started training.
I believe these words are what separate martial from art.

quote.....

"The ultimate aim of the art of karate lies not in victory or defeat,
but in the perfection of the character of it's participants"
Master Gichin Funakoshi
end..........

All the tradition, "hoki rituals and grading sytems and esoteric babblings" are what kept the arts alive all these years. Otherwise we would or wouldn't be training in a boxing gym today? Most likely wouldn't be. I bet?

Where would you be today if it weren't for all that 'mumbo jumbo' as some call it.

If it were not for the tradition we would not have all the 'older seniors' around still today, would we? Karate participants range in ages up into their 60's-80's sometimes and hopefully older. How many 60- 80 year old kick boxers or boxers do you know?

[Stryke]

At the risk of sounding an anti tradition troll ill reply , In the spirit that hopefully people will realise this is an exercise in thought , I also apologise If I`m hijacking the thread a little , Ill repost elsewere if youd prefer

Quote

"What else does the Martial Arts impart..."
My answer is: control, humility,respect, the ability to guage your response from a level-headed standpoint and not be a bragging jock-head who just wants to prove how tough he/she is.

*Hmm well maybe , I know lots of egotistical big headed karateka , Ive seen about as much control , humility , respect in most of the activities Ive been involved in , Boxing and Kick boxng , now if you were to train In those arts you better not be disrespectful to the senoirs in the gym .......



Quote

"What would be ineffective about your skills if you just learnt the techniques?"

This is the dream of every magazine- and- method reader: 5-minute techniques to bring any assailant down.
Stryke, YOU know this is fantasy...because you train. You know that techniques aren't enough.
You need the will, spirit and guts to really apply them, test them, refine them until they are something you can rely on.
Where/when is a person going to do that?
In the Dojo you get to face some pressure to see just how "killer" those techniques really are...not.
So if you just learn technique, I'm saying you miss the complete reality dimension.


*Ahh i`m not against training , just the need for the traditional spin , we can refine techniques In inovative ways , dispense with rigidity , bowing , old drills that people get little from , and old Bunkais that just boggle the mind ...... dispense with belts gis etc and just rely on ourselves and a little research .

Quote


...The mechanics of power...etc.
You state that this can be pursued through Kata...isn't that tradition?
Kata is more than science, it's the encyclopedia of your style, because it's like a living CD-ROM which suddenly explodes to life on the Dojo floor as your teacher performs a centuries-old portrayal of how the techniques are brought to life...
I think of Kata like freeze-dried coffee.If you don't add the water (you), then it's just lifeless data.
There is a TRADITION of preserving TECHNIQUE via DEMONSTRATION.
And how about the SPIRIT of how those techniques are performed?
There's a lot of SOUL in the SCIENCE of a good Kata!

*As in my first post ...

I think the only thing that should be sacred is the kata , they should contain the essence of the style , everything else , ranks , traditions , drills , Bunkai etc should be free to evolve

agree totally with you about kata , I just question all the mysticisim and packaging that goes with it .

Quote

I think this applies not only to opening your mind to new knowledge, but also pouring out the EGO to make room for compassion, humility and respect for others.
You must have seen countless students who dropped out because they met their crossroads when their Kata fell apart while the class was watching, or they came to a personal hurdle because they couldn't help a classmate without becoming a bully, or couldn't become part of the group...a class has a life of its own...

*Exactly my point , how many drop out .... , how come karate couldnt help them perfect there character ? , did it fail them ? , or did they lack something to begin with ? , maybe they just preferred tennis , maybe those that dont drop out have a tendancy to think towards tradition , or beleive there getting something out of it they could find anywhere else ...


quote.....

"The ultimate aim of the art of karate lies not in victory or defeat,
but in the perfection of the character of it's participants"
Master Gichin Funakoshi
end..........


I dont disagree with the sentaments , just where abouts this is learnt through the traditional trappings of karate , this is the same man that said

War is a tool God gave Man to organize the world.

how attitudes can change ........

The Japanese are no more spiritualy aware or characterly superior to anyone else , this is the same nation that comitted the rape of Nanking , and the atrocities they wont even acknowledge from WW2 ...

Quote

All the tradition, "hoki rituals and grading sytems and esoteric babblings" are what kept the arts alive all these years. Otherwise we would or wouldn't be training in a boxing gym today? Most likely wouldn't be. I bet?

*I tend to beleive martial arts originally was a lot like a boxing gym they went to learn how to fight and improve , the packaging came later .....

As for it being good for popularity , this agree with , A lot of it isnt quite as old as we`d beleive though , I know that Shotokan for example in its current form Is not more than a generation or two old at the most .


Quote

If it were not for the tradition we would not have all the 'older seniors' around still today, would we? Karate participants range in ages up into their 60's-80's sometimes and hopefully older. How many 60- 80 year old kick boxers or boxers do you know?

this is all about what we want from training , good exercise for old folk and children yes , good sense of comraderie and the ability to learn from these folks , yes , this is definately a benifit and a positive of tradition . Much like Tai Chi etc , health benifits perhaps ....


ANYWAY BEFORE I UPSET EVERYONE

I hope I havent gone to far , i know peoples beleifs are a very sensitive subject and i mean no offence , These arent necessarily my concrete beleifs , i appreciate styles and systems , just some of the questions Ive looked into in the process of understanding my system , I learn by tearing things apart . I know i`m going to have to agree to disagree on this one , and even consider hitting SUBMIT


Stryke

[jorvik]

Quote
"If it were not for the tradition we would not have all the 'older seniors' around still today, would we? Karate participants range in ages up into their 60's-80's sometimes and hopefully older. How many 60- 80 year old kick boxers or boxers do you know?"

The skills of a kickboxer and boxer are exactly the same as a karateka.......i.e. the ability to kick and punch.....so it is just as feasible to have 60 or 80 year old kickboxers/boxers as it is to have 60 or 80 year old karateka.There are still old boxers training by that I mean in their 70's even, you just don't hear of them. I remember hearing about one old boy in his 70's who caught 2 burglars in his house and proceeded to beat the living daylights out of them
To make another point a Kata is no more than a vague "combination" with several possible explanations.....in some systems a Kata is noticeably just a technique e.g. Judo.
I find as I get older that because of my mindframe my MA is probably a lot less interesting to watch..but certainly a lot more effective.
Try standing in stance and punching a heavy bag...or time kata so that the punches land on a heavy bag, you will be very disappointed especially by a reverse punch..next try moving like a boxer and hit the bag...makes you wonder?
Another point to consider is that boxers know that their art is effective, they have knocked people down..even with their hands padded.....how many karateka have even hit a bag? let alone hit another person. There are old boxers like George Foreman who are still formidable

[2Green]

This is a great conversation--I love it!

But Jorvik; aren't you still equating martial arts with just the fighting skills?
If so, then yes, like I said, if rthat's all a person wants then a boxing or kick-box gym is all they need.
I'm saying that the fighting skills only make up ONE component of martial arts...the one which is perhaps the most visible and obyious, but is it REALLY the most important part?
I'm not diminishing the importance of the fighting skills, I'm EQUATING them with other aspects of martial arts which are of benefit to the student.

If I personally experienced no other benefits from Karate then being a tough fighter, I'd quit tomorrow.
No interest in just being that...I know lots of folks like that and have no desire to be like them.

Maybe I should keep the "I" out of the debate...we're devil's-advocating our "cases" here, but it's hard to keep personal experience from contributing to the argument...I guess we all do that...

This is a good thread, I'm enjoying the points by all.
Hope to hear more!
NM

[jorvik]

A lot of folks seem to think that for something to be a martial art that there must be a question as to it's viability..that somehow ( maybe because they work) Thai boxing,Boxing and kick boxing are not martial arts whereas something like Tai-Chi is. I have never understood this, to me they are all martial arts...even Tai-Chi, although I have never seen anyone who could use it as a fighting art .
I have always dabbled in different styles...I don't think of myself as a stylist
I am not particularly fond of Kata....although I am interested by some of them.
I have always found that the styles that fight appealed more to me, they have honesty and integrity which is sometimes lacking in the others, and I feel physically and spiritually refreshed just doing them. I have done a lot of Tai-Chi and Aikido...their appeal is different ( and both of them come with a tremendous amount of B*llsh*t attached.....about how tremendous they are as fighting arts..but little proof).
I have done MA's since childhood, and I will continue to do them...as I have got older I have shed certain ideas. Boxing is terribly efficient and easily learned....if you practise an oriental art, don't ignore it because in our culture it is the prevelant " hard man" art.
Don't confuse Cathartic expression, artistic expression ....joy of movement with efficient fighting
When it comes down to the bone those hours punching the heavy bag will pay dividends