Just about everyone has back pain, usually lower, at some point. I have a sort of chronic LBP that I pay little attention to that amounts to transient stiffness on waking or after certain activities (despite a quality mattress), but also episodes of gripping back pain that prevents me from easily putting on a pair of shoes.
Whenever this happens, ordinary Uechi can be no good. I can usually do most of the kata work without significantly changing the techniques, but kicking is a major problem. I also abstain from partner exercises where one might expect a jerking around (as with grabs in kyu kumite, even the tub down during the kotekitae wauke). The other killer is bowing, which sets off bigtime spasms unless little more than a head nod. Then, even reversing the usual lumbar lordosis (curve in the lower back) feels like I'm stretching my spine far more than it wants to allow. I find this interesting because what I call the back pain position (lying flat on one's back, relaxed, with hips and knees at 90 degrees and calves on a chair, with spine straight as in sanchin) immediately relieves or reduces my and just about everyone's back pain immediately.
I'm curious to hear how others here have experienced back pain related to their Uechi and whether and how they've modified their art or its practice in response. Have people identified something they're doing wrong? I'd love to figure out what my mistake is and correct it, since that'd correct a flaw and solved a nagging problem all at once. So far my only adjustment--long ago--was to remove stretching that involved leaning over both legs at once and making sure I kept my lower back straight with any stretch.
Uechi and Back Pain
Moderator: Available
Uechi and Back Pain
--Ian
Wow:
Have I got a story for you.
In the summer of 1998 I was wheeled into my doctor's office in a wheelchair, unable to stand because I threw my back out turning and picking up something no heavier than a shoebox.
I'd spent the summer hiking and mountain biking and was in reasonable shape. 150 lb, 5'6".
I spent the next week hobbling around my kitchen using mops for crutches.
I feared sneezing more than death.
I bought Anderson's book on stretching and very gradually began to rehabilitate myself.
I was 47.
Staring 50 in the face and unable to even wash my face without leaning on my elbows over the basin, I signed up that Fall for Karate; there was a convergence of factors.
On the form it asked for any medical conditions.
I wrote "Prone to lower back muscle spasm".
I found the training and the postural principles benefited my condition and did not make anything worse. The "tuck" principle aided me greatly day to day with my stiff lower back as it slowly healed.
It was almost three years before I could get up in the morning and stoop over the sink without my elbows.
For all those three years I had to sit down, pull my foot up onto the opposite knee and wrestle the socks on every morning.
I religiously followed the principles of stance, posture, balance, and upper/lower body connection using the tuck.
Now, six years later at 52 I am episode-free, extremely posture-aware, and I can participate without reservation in all Uechi classes at my level (last Green Belt stage.)
I don't know what I would have done without the concepts and benefits of training Uechi. I think without it I would be a mess today and I credit my present condition to the training.
NM
Have I got a story for you.
In the summer of 1998 I was wheeled into my doctor's office in a wheelchair, unable to stand because I threw my back out turning and picking up something no heavier than a shoebox.
I'd spent the summer hiking and mountain biking and was in reasonable shape. 150 lb, 5'6".
I spent the next week hobbling around my kitchen using mops for crutches.
I feared sneezing more than death.
I bought Anderson's book on stretching and very gradually began to rehabilitate myself.
I was 47.
Staring 50 in the face and unable to even wash my face without leaning on my elbows over the basin, I signed up that Fall for Karate; there was a convergence of factors.
On the form it asked for any medical conditions.
I wrote "Prone to lower back muscle spasm".
I found the training and the postural principles benefited my condition and did not make anything worse. The "tuck" principle aided me greatly day to day with my stiff lower back as it slowly healed.
It was almost three years before I could get up in the morning and stoop over the sink without my elbows.
For all those three years I had to sit down, pull my foot up onto the opposite knee and wrestle the socks on every morning.
I religiously followed the principles of stance, posture, balance, and upper/lower body connection using the tuck.
Now, six years later at 52 I am episode-free, extremely posture-aware, and I can participate without reservation in all Uechi classes at my level (last Green Belt stage.)
I don't know what I would have done without the concepts and benefits of training Uechi. I think without it I would be a mess today and I credit my present condition to the training.
NM
-
Stryke
I had chronic back pain for about 18 months about maybe 8 or so years ago , I was hyper mobile and didnt have enough strength , technically my movements were a little to powerfull and not fluid enough and to abrupt.
I did alot of things , physio chiropracters etc etc .. but the best thing for my back I fee was Deadlifts and Squats .. of course this is a dangerous thing with pre existing conditions and I would nt recomend it ... but it worked for me ( was very slow and well managed strengthening )
most people recomend strentghening the abs , but my abs were (past hence
) great , not until I targeted the back muscles , and particularly the spinal erectors did i find stability and structure .
I did alot of things , physio chiropracters etc etc .. but the best thing for my back I fee was Deadlifts and Squats .. of course this is a dangerous thing with pre existing conditions and I would nt recomend it ... but it worked for me ( was very slow and well managed strengthening )
most people recomend strentghening the abs , but my abs were (past hence
) great , not until I targeted the back muscles , and particularly the spinal erectors did i find stability and structure .-
benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
I've never had Uechi related back pains... but..
I had a patient fall one time... me being the nice guy I am
grabbed him and made his fall a short descent to the floor. He was OK I had my back effed up for a long time after that. In fact I spent a month out of work on muscle relaxers and viox (you know.. the drug lawyers are drooling over now).
The first week was hell. The physicians assistant I was seeing through employee health sent me to a physical therapist/chiropractor. He had me on a regemine of thims machine(sp?) and heat with a regemine of yogo like excersizes and strength training.
It worked.
My un solicited advice is get someone to prescribe a physical therapist for you. They'll strenthen your mucles in the area you're huring in and even spot something like hip misalighnment and fix it with stretches.
Ohhh ... one thing I've heard that is a good fix for lower back pain is using the stair master machine. Try it and you'll feel it in the lower back. Also ham string streches help.
Hope something there was useful Doc.
I had a patient fall one time... me being the nice guy I am
grabbed him and made his fall a short descent to the floor. He was OK I had my back effed up for a long time after that. In fact I spent a month out of work on muscle relaxers and viox (you know.. the drug lawyers are drooling over now).The first week was hell. The physicians assistant I was seeing through employee health sent me to a physical therapist/chiropractor. He had me on a regemine of thims machine(sp?) and heat with a regemine of yogo like excersizes and strength training.
It worked.
My un solicited advice is get someone to prescribe a physical therapist for you. They'll strenthen your mucles in the area you're huring in and even spot something like hip misalighnment and fix it with stretches.
Ohhh ... one thing I've heard that is a good fix for lower back pain is using the stair master machine. Try it and you'll feel it in the lower back. Also ham string streches help.
Hope something there was useful Doc.
Uechi and Back Pain
IJ,
44 years ago when I started with GEM I found that I got lower back pain in the twisting motions of kicking and the comcomitant dynamic tension.
Inadvertently one morning at 5:00 a.m. I was starting a mild San Chin when on the TV (imagine, only three channels available!) a short program on Tai Chi came on. As a preliminary the Sensei (if that be the correct designation) started off with and interesting warm up exercise which I subsequently tried:
Feet together, he placed his thumbs against the lower muscles of his back (obviously reaching back not across the front [grin]) and then proceeded, keeping his head 'fixed' above his feet, to 'churn butter' with his hips slowly and deliberately in a circular motion, 32 times ('a magic number' probably related to I-Ching, 2^5) clockwise and then 32 times counter clockwise. From a top view (z-axis) the locus of his hips in x-y plane was a well defined circle of radius half a hip width.
My first attempt caused me to move my head a bit while gingerly feeling the tightness in my lower back muscles. Almost as if he were looking at me he said :"keep you head fixed, the hips should rotate, not your head".
Eventually the motion becomes smooth and fluid.
To this day I start out each 'Big 3' set with the hip churner. My thumbs, pressing against the back muscles at various heights, interrupt any feed-back tension. I can attest that when I have stupidly twisted or lifted heavy objects incorrectly I quickly did the 'churn' and recovered.
I hope that this anecdote might be of help. You might say that it is now my CHURN to pass on this exercise [whew!] [grin].
44 years ago when I started with GEM I found that I got lower back pain in the twisting motions of kicking and the comcomitant dynamic tension.
Inadvertently one morning at 5:00 a.m. I was starting a mild San Chin when on the TV (imagine, only three channels available!) a short program on Tai Chi came on. As a preliminary the Sensei (if that be the correct designation) started off with and interesting warm up exercise which I subsequently tried:
Feet together, he placed his thumbs against the lower muscles of his back (obviously reaching back not across the front [grin]) and then proceeded, keeping his head 'fixed' above his feet, to 'churn butter' with his hips slowly and deliberately in a circular motion, 32 times ('a magic number' probably related to I-Ching, 2^5) clockwise and then 32 times counter clockwise. From a top view (z-axis) the locus of his hips in x-y plane was a well defined circle of radius half a hip width.
My first attempt caused me to move my head a bit while gingerly feeling the tightness in my lower back muscles. Almost as if he were looking at me he said :"keep you head fixed, the hips should rotate, not your head".
Eventually the motion becomes smooth and fluid.
To this day I start out each 'Big 3' set with the hip churner. My thumbs, pressing against the back muscles at various heights, interrupt any feed-back tension. I can attest that when I have stupidly twisted or lifted heavy objects incorrectly I quickly did the 'churn' and recovered.
I hope that this anecdote might be of help. You might say that it is now my CHURN to pass on this exercise [whew!] [grin].
Uechi and Back Pain
IJ,
Apologies. The circumference of the circle the hips touch is of a radius one full hip width from the center of the spine. I should have said "add half a hip width to the excursion". Otherwise you would have to shrink your hips, and this transcends even Uechi capabalities.
Apologies. The circumference of the circle the hips touch is of a radius one full hip width from the center of the spine. I should have said "add half a hip width to the excursion". Otherwise you would have to shrink your hips, and this transcends even Uechi capabalities.
-
RACastanet
- Posts: 3744
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA
Hello Ian. Sorry to hear about your back.
I have a full blown blown disc at L5, so understand the problem. It affects my Uechi because a snapping kick creates just the right motion to 'irritate' it. Bill G picked that up years ago but I work around it.
Keeping my hams and Glutes well stretched really helps. As do periodic visits to the chiro. However some of the core building exercises I learned from and do with the USMC MA trainers have really helped. I used to visit the chiro more than once a month, but have only done so four times this year in spite of some continued nasty workouts at Quantico. The exercises are pretty simple but in themselves do cause considerable discomfort while building up the trunk area.
One simple thing you can do is get orthotics for your shoes if you are even mildly flat footed. Lynco makes a variety for feet that over-pronate. They are really helpful. Another product is the athletic shoe line by New Balance for overpronation. Seems simple but an ortho surgeon recommended these products and they enable me to run more than ever with little or no foot, knee or back pain. If your feet are out of whack it just builds up through your legs and torso and might be part of your problem.
Rich
I have a full blown blown disc at L5, so understand the problem. It affects my Uechi because a snapping kick creates just the right motion to 'irritate' it. Bill G picked that up years ago but I work around it.
Keeping my hams and Glutes well stretched really helps. As do periodic visits to the chiro. However some of the core building exercises I learned from and do with the USMC MA trainers have really helped. I used to visit the chiro more than once a month, but have only done so four times this year in spite of some continued nasty workouts at Quantico. The exercises are pretty simple but in themselves do cause considerable discomfort while building up the trunk area.
One simple thing you can do is get orthotics for your shoes if you are even mildly flat footed. Lynco makes a variety for feet that over-pronate. They are really helpful. Another product is the athletic shoe line by New Balance for overpronation. Seems simple but an ortho surgeon recommended these products and they enable me to run more than ever with little or no foot, knee or back pain. If your feet are out of whack it just builds up through your legs and torso and might be part of your problem.
Rich
Member of the world's premier gun club, the USMC!
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
It's worth mentioning that a lot of people end up with the kind of acute back pain you experience, Ian. Often it's the same spot for most folks. In any case, I find rehab is the answer.
I never had formal rehab. Instead I learned via a knowledge of the body and lots of time spent in the weight room. Here are some do's and don'ts that may help.
1) You need a core set of trunk exercises that you do on a regular basis. These exercises (not just one) should work on both the strength and the flexibility of upper and lower abdominals, the obliques, and lower back muscles.
2) Avoid stretching exercises where you sit down or stand up and bend forward. The more modern stretching exercises involve lieing down with your back flat to the floor and instead bringing the legs (or knees) to your chest. You can do these with or without a partner.
3) Get some variety in your workouts. Doing the same narrow set of exercises again and again can create problems.
4) Do NOT do a lot of stretching before you warm up. Warm up first. Then stretch. The best stretching is done in the middle of hard exercising. For example, alternate between bench pressing and pectoralis stretching. Alternate between leg extensions and quadriceps stretches. Alternate between back hyperextension exercises and lower back stretches.
5) Find yourself a good masseuse. These people are a godsend when you have hurt your back. They can pinpoint where your problem is, often down to an area the size of a dime. This can give you hints as to what exercises you need to do to get yourself back to normal. They also can be helpful in keeping your muscles loose.
6) Stay away from the use of a lot of machines in weight training. Use less weight, no weight belt, and better form, but with freeweight exercises. This will work on a lot of core and stabilizer muscles, and teach you generalizeable coordination skills.
As always, when in doubt see a doctor. (You know how important it is for me to say that, Ian.) And of course watch out for telltale signs such as numbness or pain shooting down the legs.
There are probably a lot of other useful rules of thumb, but these are ones that have helped me.
- Bill
I never had formal rehab. Instead I learned via a knowledge of the body and lots of time spent in the weight room. Here are some do's and don'ts that may help.
1) You need a core set of trunk exercises that you do on a regular basis. These exercises (not just one) should work on both the strength and the flexibility of upper and lower abdominals, the obliques, and lower back muscles.
2) Avoid stretching exercises where you sit down or stand up and bend forward. The more modern stretching exercises involve lieing down with your back flat to the floor and instead bringing the legs (or knees) to your chest. You can do these with or without a partner.
3) Get some variety in your workouts. Doing the same narrow set of exercises again and again can create problems.
4) Do NOT do a lot of stretching before you warm up. Warm up first. Then stretch. The best stretching is done in the middle of hard exercising. For example, alternate between bench pressing and pectoralis stretching. Alternate between leg extensions and quadriceps stretches. Alternate between back hyperextension exercises and lower back stretches.
5) Find yourself a good masseuse. These people are a godsend when you have hurt your back. They can pinpoint where your problem is, often down to an area the size of a dime. This can give you hints as to what exercises you need to do to get yourself back to normal. They also can be helpful in keeping your muscles loose.
6) Stay away from the use of a lot of machines in weight training. Use less weight, no weight belt, and better form, but with freeweight exercises. This will work on a lot of core and stabilizer muscles, and teach you generalizeable coordination skills.
As always, when in doubt see a doctor. (You know how important it is for me to say that, Ian.) And of course watch out for telltale signs such as numbness or pain shooting down the legs.
There are probably a lot of other useful rules of thumb, but these are ones that have helped me.
- Bill
Ah, Bill, but I have seen a doctor, and you can see his advice was useless 
Thanks for the advice, all; I have no gym membership so I use some freeweights, the stairs at work (11 flights), and Uechi, and am trying to emphasize core exercises. Like many I'm not interested in pills unless I'm about to snap in half, which is very infrequent; most of the time I notice nothing or minor limitation.
One of the things I have going for me is mindset. I've seen people come to the office, complaining they were completely disabled by their backpain. They all needed percocet, of course... and these were NOT the set that I sensed were coming for the percocet itself. They truly had pain, but I could tell their brain was 70% of it. At many of these visits, they had no limitation to motion, but were feeling disabled; at one point, I had trouble getting out of my chair to explain that percocet wasn't the answer, yet I was easily overworking myself without slowing down a minute.
Thanks for the advice, all; I have no gym membership so I use some freeweights, the stairs at work (11 flights), and Uechi, and am trying to emphasize core exercises. Like many I'm not interested in pills unless I'm about to snap in half, which is very infrequent; most of the time I notice nothing or minor limitation.
One of the things I have going for me is mindset. I've seen people come to the office, complaining they were completely disabled by their backpain. They all needed percocet, of course... and these were NOT the set that I sensed were coming for the percocet itself. They truly had pain, but I could tell their brain was 70% of it. At many of these visits, they had no limitation to motion, but were feeling disabled; at one point, I had trouble getting out of my chair to explain that percocet wasn't the answer, yet I was easily overworking myself without slowing down a minute.
--Ian
-
benzocaine
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:20 pm
- Location: St. Thomas
I'm not sure how much an inside joke this is so please forgive me if I sound ignorant.Ah, Bill, but I have seen a doctor, and you can see his advice was useless
Couldn't you have your doctor give a prescription for Physical therapy? I would guess health insurance would cover most of the cost. Sure they are not Doctors.. but.. they are specialists who eat breathe and sleep back aches and shoulder tears ect. and know things in this area that many Doctors only think they know.
From my experience most docors I've seen simply write an order for PT to do what they need.... and it works.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ian
It's worth mentioning that the muscle spasms associated with acute LBP are in themselves a problem. Getting those muscles to relax is an important first step in the healing process.
I have had a few whopping cases of acute LBP. One very bad one happened BECAUSE my lower back and glutes are so strong. I was using one of those newfangled machines to work the back, and it didn't even tax me without doing the whole bloody stack. So there I was supporting all the weight in a lower back extended position when the machine malfunctioned.
I almost had to be carried out of the gym. It took several months to recover, and that spot flairs up every once in a while.
Anyhow, believe it or not I have never taken a muscle relaxant, even though I see muscle relaxation as a key step in the early recovery phase. I just prefer to do it by other means. In such cases, I come very close to wanting to propose marriage to any good masseuse who knows her stuff.
Ice packs also are really important in the early, acute phase. Once things settle down a bit, then I often sit in my office chair with a heating pad behind me. Great stuff...
A back hyperextension exercise and an oblique exercise (both done in one of those simple chair-like devices) are vital for rehab. I do the exercises slowly, pause at the most contracted point, and I choose to use as much weight as my body tells me I can. This becomes both diagnostic and therapeutic in nature.
- Bill
It's worth mentioning that the muscle spasms associated with acute LBP are in themselves a problem. Getting those muscles to relax is an important first step in the healing process.
I have had a few whopping cases of acute LBP. One very bad one happened BECAUSE my lower back and glutes are so strong. I was using one of those newfangled machines to work the back, and it didn't even tax me without doing the whole bloody stack. So there I was supporting all the weight in a lower back extended position when the machine malfunctioned.
I almost had to be carried out of the gym. It took several months to recover, and that spot flairs up every once in a while.
Anyhow, believe it or not I have never taken a muscle relaxant, even though I see muscle relaxation as a key step in the early recovery phase. I just prefer to do it by other means. In such cases, I come very close to wanting to propose marriage to any good masseuse who knows her stuff.
Ice packs also are really important in the early, acute phase. Once things settle down a bit, then I often sit in my office chair with a heating pad behind me. Great stuff...
A back hyperextension exercise and an oblique exercise (both done in one of those simple chair-like devices) are vital for rehab. I do the exercises slowly, pause at the most contracted point, and I choose to use as much weight as my body tells me I can. This becomes both diagnostic and therapeutic in nature.
- Bill
Benzocaine, I was joking that MY advice wasn't helping me very much. Medicine as a field doesn't do very well with LBP. We look for evidence of slipped discs, underlying medical problems such as cancers or infections, but mostly people have "garden variety" or "musculoskeletal" back pain and many of those have a lot of psych overlay including workers comp issues. Most have declined my prescriptions for PT or made half hearted attempts and been disappointed or fired from PT for nonattendance. Even the motivated ones tend to continue to have back pain, although it's better. A lot of people want to get prescriptions to stay out of even light work, even though prolonged bed rest is shown to increase disability, and the medications--ibuprofen, naproxen and the like, plus or minus acetaminophen for pain; cyclobenzaprine or valium and the like for spasm--disappoint patients who often want something "stronger." That means narcotics, but then most of those with LBP on narcotics I've met have dependence issues and still have LBP. Plus, at least half the people who want narcotics for back pain in my experience have been purely seeking narcotics for enjoyment or sale, not pain, anyway, which makes life really hard for the rest.
It's tough. I favor the PT / massage / posture / stress reduction / stay active / occasional NSAIDs and tylenol approach for myself and others, but they're not perfect. I don't mind being stiff in the morning but it gets really annoying if LBP cuts into my Uechi!
It's tough. I favor the PT / massage / posture / stress reduction / stay active / occasional NSAIDs and tylenol approach for myself and others, but they're not perfect. I don't mind being stiff in the morning but it gets really annoying if LBP cuts into my Uechi!
--Ian
When I said "I feared sneezing more than death" I want to clarify:
For those of you who haven't "been there", sneezing while in lower-back muscle spasm is like being whipped on a sunburn.
By sheer chance, I discovered the secret:
STAND UP AND LEAN BACK.
And sneeze to your heart's content. You won't feel a thing in your lower back.
I PROMISE.
I don't know why, (have theories) but it works.
NM
For those of you who haven't "been there", sneezing while in lower-back muscle spasm is like being whipped on a sunburn.
By sheer chance, I discovered the secret:
STAND UP AND LEAN BACK.
And sneeze to your heart's content. You won't feel a thing in your lower back.
I PROMISE.
I don't know why, (have theories) but it works.
NM
