Hello

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:36 pm

It all applies, more or less.

I think mostly of Universal, Nautilus, Strive, and all the other healthclub gadgets that isolate muscle groups. But the TV stuff is worse in a way. From Universal to Nautilus to Srive, we at least have a progression to machines that pay more and more attention to working strength in the entire range of motion. This addresses the issue of multiple muscles being used for simple motions, and each muscle emphasizing its contribution at some point in the range. Things like bo flex make BIG compromises in the name of economy and size.

In a perfect world, you have it all. One ideally should start with the open chain, classic lifts that use the most muscles, and require a lot of coordination. You exhaust and train your body FIRST on these very challenging exercises. Then you do cleanup work with the barbells, dumbbells, and - yes - machines. Some muscle groups like the hamstrings and the lats are best isolated and worked on with machines. And if you don't develop those hamstrings enough, you actually put yourself at risk for injury.

The worst case scenario is the guy who does the 20 to 30 minute machine station workout, and then tries to work his body hard on the playing field. The benefits of the machines are somewhat limiting. Furthermore, these folks typically end up with odd injuries (such as rotator cuff tears), and never know why.

No free lunch.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:32 pm

I realize the redirection this thread has taken should probably be in a separate post, but:

For toning without bulking up, what kind of traditional freeweight lifting workout is recommended? I've been using the circuit training only, but I don't want to stay focused on that if it may do more harm than good in the long run.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 4:55 pm

Bill
just what exactly is rotator cuff injuries, how do they manifest themselves?...I've had a twinge in my left shoulder for a good few months now, I can bench press and do pushups but I still feel sore. I've just ordered a whole load of Matt Furey's tapes on combat conditioning
http://sfuk.tripod.com/reviews/furey_combat1.html
I figure that they will keep me interested and motivated, He maybe only saying it because it's competition, but he does seem against weights

Harry wellcome, I used to read all your stuff in the old fighting arts mag.and Max I learned Sanchin from Dave Scott many years ago

.he was my first Karate teacher ( but I switched to Goju

)

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:15 pm

I started another thread here.

- Bill

maxwell ainley · Post by **maxwell ainley** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:06 pm

Jorvick , Nice to hear you did uechi with Dave ,how did you find the two sanchins uechi/goju if you recall things etc.
Harry thanks again for invite one sun would be fine at some future date .
Max.

Harry Cook · Post by **Harry Cook** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:10 am

You are welcome, let me know when you plan to come up just to make sure I'm here.
You may also be interested in our summer gasshuku which we hold on the isle of Aran (the Scottish one!) on the last weekend or so of July. Training is free and open to all styles. We train on the beach at Kildonnan for three or four days; all you need is a valid license/insurance etc.
Harry Cook

stephen mcnally · Post by **stephen mcnally** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:50 am

To join in the 'small world' theme

I was also taught by Dave Scott and have also trained withe Sensei Cook a few years back. I assisted Terry Daly who was giving a class on Uechi Sanchin to Harry's class up at Hexham.

So ..... Hello

Jorvik, how long ago is 'many years ago' - we may have met ?

Steve

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:58 am

Max
I prefer the Uechi version, but I don't think that the Goju one is afforded as much attention by it's practitioners also, to me at least the Uechi version is more chinese, and I find that I can do it almost like Tai-Chi, with a very rounded back, almost like hugging a ball............

steve
I think we probably have met a few times, I've been a few times to Uechi classes. The first time was at the Old solna Hotel about 30 years ago Mick Pappas was a Black belt Danny Haig was a Brown.........I've been to the everyman a few times as well and trained with Mick and later Danny when they ran daytime classes, You'd probably remember my ugly face

Jeff Wile · Post by **Jeff Wile** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 12:27 pm

Here's a link to a Bill Starr style routine.

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~keen0018/strong.htm

stephen mcnally · Post by **stephen mcnally** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 2:09 pm

jorvik wrote:steve
I think we probably have met a few times, I've been a few times to Uechi classes. The first time was at the Old solna Hotel about 30 years ago Mick Pappas was a Black belt Danny Haig was a Brown.........I've been to the everyman a few times as well and trained with Mick and later Danny when they ran daytime classes, You'd probably remember my ugly face

Ah, I don't go quite that far back. 15 years at the most, although my Dad (same name) was training 30 years ago (and still is) with Danny and Mick, so you may know him.
If you've trained at the Everyman (where we still are) then you will know him certainly. If you wish to remain anonymous PM me your real name and I'll ask my Dad if he remembers you.

Best wishes,

Steve.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:01 pm

Hi steve

It's not that I wish to remain anonymous particularly, a lot of folks on the forums know my name, it's more that I am unknown in Uechi circles. I knew Danny from years back when he and I both did Jiu-Jitsu, I've changed considerably from those days...as we all do

so I doubt if anyone would know me from my brief visits. I've also trained at the Uechi club in Allerton, again very briefly..........which was in part how I came to these fora

check out
http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/empty_forc ... _force.htm
.and this is the little article I wrote about a course I attended there

stephen mcnally · Post by **stephen mcnally** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:03 pm

Sorry Jorvik, didn't mean to suggest you where hiding anything.

Interesting article that, thanks.

Steve.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sat Jan 08, 2005 8:32 pm

Quote
"Sorry Jorvik, didn't mean to suggest you where hiding anything."
I think that we all would like to know more about the people that we talk to on these Fora, but even when we do it would mean very little. I'm not well known in the Ma world although I have trained for most of my life

.and there are lots of people out there who are just the same.
Quote
"Interesting article that, thanks."
I'm happy you enjoyed it

.if you try those things out you will find that they all work.it's a bit of a hobby of mine ..finding the unusual..........explaining mysteries, I've found a few more since then

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:11 am

Jeff

I checked out your Bill Starr routine.

In general, I like the types of exercises he does. However...

This is a routine that has been around for ages

I can tell. This is old-school thinking. In the old days, they did muscle groups 3 times a week, typically on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule. I started off on a Bill Reynolds routine that did the same. Then I bumped into John Gamble, the strength coach at U.Va.

John Gamble is no slouch. When I met him, it was 2 years after he won the world heavyweight powerlifting championships. He later became the strength coach for the Miami Dolphins. John also trained my wife when she was winning east coast bodybuilding contests in the 1980s. This was before the women started doing 'roids and getting the double-D implants.

The first thing John did with me after generously offering to help me with my own workout and one for my club was ask for a book on the style (I gave him Uechiryu Karatedo as a gift) and a copy of my routine.

Next... He told me that Bill Reynolds was a great guy and one of the classics in the field of weight training but... I was overtraining. It was too many times per week.

The most important things he did for me were:

1) split my routines,

2) convince me that 2 times per week per body part was plenty (one heavy, and one light day),

3) teach me how to do periodization, and how to peak for an important event,

4) convince me I needed to program in rest and vacation time.

Some folks find that doing even fewer times per week but splitting into three workouts and slamming a body part works even better.

Bottom line...that's old school. Better than nothing, but not optimal.

Also...this is a routine for getting big and not for being balanced or being an athlete. Both John Gamble and I would give that a thumbs down for lack of work on the hamstrings. One needs to have a 3 to 2 ratio of strength from quad to hamstring. Get higher than that, and it's only a matter of time before you get a hamstring injury. This is problematic for folks who do squats and no leg curls. It also is a problem for karateka who eschew lifting but do squat-like calisthenics in class. John spoke to me about athletes who would be running down the field and then suddenly drop from a hamstring pull as if shot by a rifle. It's not pretty, and it'll put you in rehab for months - if not longer.

There ARE some good exercises in Bill Starr's routine though. I do almost all of them that are in there. The only one I cannot do is the front squat. My body just isn't built right to do that.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 1:15 am

Stephen

Welcome aboard!

- Bill