Breathing Aside From Jeff's Thread

Mark Weitz · Post by **Mark Weitz** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:10 pm

Just a few thoughts based on my experience with the "traditional" uechi breathing, using Van's description in which there is no internal or external breath during exertion.

Well, I guess it depends on who you trained with and what you've picked up. Outside of kata, and usually it's Sanchin kata, I've never been told to breath solely using the Uechi hiss as performed in the kata.

During hojo undo, even fast paced, the class typically hisses after returning to the neutral position but how you breathe while performing the movement is varied depending on the student.

I've been taught that the Uechi hss is a form of chi kung, a way of centering your breath in the tan tien and it works brialliantly as well in bringing your breathing down, that is, preventing you from getting stuck breathing too high in the chest. I've used this method since starting at Dave Mott's dojo over 14 years ago and it works very well.

The hiss, combined with expanding the abdominal muscles, is very useful for Sanchin testing and toughening and it makes sense to me from this perspective why we use it in a "classical" manner in the kata.

I think what's happened is a lot of instructors don't understand the fucntion of the hiss and they try to impose it on a lot of different situations where it can't possibly work, at least not in the Sanchin/Classical way. When sparring I use the hss when my breathing is too high, or my level of tension increases and I want to center myself both physically and psychologically. I also use it when I've been hit solidly in the abs or ribs and I want to get my breathing down, which typically for me becomes shallow after being hit with more power than I can handle without wincing.

So, a lot uses for the hss, but I totally agree with Tony that it will fail once you've exceeded the usual limits of your aerobic/anaerobic conditioning. And that makes perfect sense as in that scenario you are incapable of mindlessly and rhythmically hissing.

Mark

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:45 pm

Yeah Mark, your body starts making demands and if you don't give it what it needs, it will start shutting down on you. Alot of Uechi people out there don't understand this because they aren't "pushing the envelope". True, a couple round of boxing sounds pretty easy, but i'm trying to get to 3, then 4, then hopefully 5 (i've established goals for myself)! How can I do that without crossing the threshold of what I can take everytime I workout? But you see, it's at that threshold of what you can stand physically that you discover how desperatley you need things like AIR and WATER to survive!

Mark Weitz · Post by **Mark Weitz** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:49 pm

Alot of Uechi people out there don't understand this because they aren't "pushing the envelope". True, a couple round of boxing sounds pretty easy

You're right as a lot of Karate and other martial artists don't spar, don't spar hard or have never been challenged enough by people who know how to hit hard. I'm all for gradual toughening and incrementally increasing intensity but sadly many people stop their sparring experience short of having someone hit hard enough to stop them. I'm not suggesting for a moment people should be hurting each other but I have noticed that some stop very short of going over their comfort zone and that IMHO is counter-productive because if they ever have to use their training to defend themselves then all of their training up to that point will have been in their comfort zone, which will evaporate in a New York minute.

And many people are very happy to train strenuous sparring once in a blue moon and I have no issue with that as long as they are aware that their training for self-defence purposes is greatly limited.

A couple of rounds of boxing does not sound easy and based on my limited experience working punches at a fast pace - I'm not trained in boxing but have worked with a few people who were proficient at it - I know it is very demanding. Those who say otherwise either have lungs the size of medicine balls or simply don't have a clue and have never trained hard enough to know any better.

I think it's great you're pushing the evelope. So much learning comes from that. Too many people are content to stay within their small world of what they know and never have it tested. You've got a lot of Uechi experience and now your learning boxing. As far as I'm concerned I want you on my team

.

Mark

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:03 pm

Mark,

Good points. It is like Art Rabesa writes that it helps to 'have been there' when arguing these matters.

but I have noticed that some stop very short of going over their comfort zone and that IMHO is counter-productive because if they ever have to use their training to defend themselves then all of their training up to that point will have been in their comfort zone, which will evaporate in a New York minute.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:33 pm

Hey Mark, thanks! I really do appreciate the words of encouragement. Right now is a critical time for me because I could easily say "fuq it"! and slip back into eating and smoking cigars like I was doing a few months ago. Having friends stand behind me and encourage me to keep pushing makes this whole "karate" thing worthwhile.

I used to have "friends" here in Karate, some of them even provided encouragement in *secret* and behind closed doors, but as just as I started to show some signs of improvment, I somehow managed to "Blow them all away" with my breathing...

I realize sparring is tough but you know, good, hard drills with kicking shields and focus mitts are just just excellent too! Teachers can get their students working on these things in 3 minute intervals and then discuss problems and improvements during a 1 minute break (rather then interupt their mindset while their trying to focus). This type of training is not only a great augment to sparring (actually, it's nessecary) but it's a good alternative also for people who have troulbe going freestyle for whatever reason.

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Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:07 am

I should have pointed out as Mark said we do the hissing in sanchin and many of the okinawan sensei advocate the hiss and the exhale after the strike. We make sure we do this in sanchin but it was pointed out that others like Takamiyagi sensei breath on the strike also during some of their demonstrations and I'm not an expert so this is how I understood it and not carved in stone.

Other kata work and things of that nature as Kanei advocated I believe we can breath naturally but in sanchin we make the audible hiss and use the exhale after the strike method. Higa sensei said this was correct in his mind for Sanchin I believe. In other work away from sanchin we don't focus so intently on breathing and just do it naturally as I believe Kanei explained.

Hope that made sense and I know my teacher understands it so please don't take this as his advice or statements these are my statements from what I think I understood of what was said.

Glad it was a good talk and nobody got to wrapped up in it lol cause I like to see it stay productive and it's fun that way and I think it motivates us all when we keep it like that so thanks.

Jeff

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:39 am

Hope I clarified my position on breathing in the above thread but I also forgot to point out that I've heard Shinjo Kiyohide is very adamant about exhaling with the hiss after the strike in sanchin as well.

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:44 am

Adamant how Jeff? You mean he'll kick you if you don't breathe like he says?

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:49 am

LOL no Tony in sanchin one of our instructors who visited with him and got to train with him passed on that he was very much for and in favor of the exhaling with the hiss method after the strike was completed in sanchin.

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:51 am

Oh really? Well he's an okinawan, why don't you try his way?

Mark Weitz · Post by **Mark Weitz** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:52 am

Tony, no problem and glad I could offer some encouragement. Your hard work is an inspiration to others and we should all encourage each other to explore and develop. It's unfortunate that some people find it threatening when a Uechika dares to study something else or heaven forbid develop an alternative perspective. It's difficult at times when we realize our path isn't what's been fed to us and perhaps even more difficult for those instructors that are closed minded and threatened by their students developing to a point where they're ready to explore other complimentary fighting systems and principles, something every teacher should encourage and celebrate.

I don't want to sound presumptuous as there's much that I don't know about your background, training etc., but I'm wondering if you were discouraged or criticized for trying new things or questioning old assumptions. I don't expect that you'd necessarily air all of that here but I can understand how frustrating that could be. Still, from the posts on this forum there's obviously a lot of people in your corner (no pun intended

)

George, perhaps you can respond to this but I remember a class you led when visiting Dave Mott's dojo a few years ago and you said about breathing and the hiss that it should be something that over time should become more natural, not forced and a means of developing a relaxed but strong center.

Mark

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:03 am

I respect the guys opinion being a nine time undefeated champion and sure if he recommends something a good many people pay attention afterall he is a legend on Okinawa.

I have to admit I do see Shinjo Kiyohide as a great example and one of the guys on a pedestal in the Uechi world for me anyway.

Jeff

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:10 am

Mark Weitz wrote:about your background, training etc., but I'm wondering if you were discouraged or criticized for trying new things or questioning old assumptions.

Absolutley Mark... My own Sensei, was very supportive of me but somehow our group was tied to a Shohei organization (even though we where Soke and then Kokusai, don't ask me... I don't know). There where a couple of Sensei's in that group who pushed their views on our grand sensei and he folded rather then stick up for me. Nothing against him, he's a good man, but he just didn't want the stress of having to justify anything I was doing in my training. I can't blame him, he's getting up there in age and really doesn't need that kind of PoOpEy, especially for the "black sheep" that I was (I wasn't part of that group originally, I just kind of walked into it one day and with the exception of a couple of people, and they know who they are, and that i'm not slamming them, thats pretty much how I was treated). This isn't the first time this Sensei down south pulled this stunt, there was a female in our group who somehow made this Sensei feel threated and she was publically humiliated and eventually left the group.

The thing is, no matter what I did, a workout always concluded with some spiel about what I was doing wrong and what is or is not uechi...blah blah blah... being jettison'd from that group is probably the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm not sure why i'm still PeEpEe'd about it...

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:13 am

Mills75 wrote:I have to admit I do see Shinjo Kiyohide as a great example and one of the guys on a pedestal in the Uechi world for me anyway.

Jeff

He's definatley a bad ass jeff.... I'm curious about his charachter though. Whats he like? Is he friendly? Kind? Gentle? A bully?

Mills75 · Post by **Mills75** » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:23 am

I've never had the pleasure to meet him Tony but I hope to someday and from all accounts of what I have heard even from an account by John Giacoletti also he sounds like a very humble and good man.

John told the story in one thread of his visit and how he accidently hurt in a minor fashion his students leg with a kick from behind and he knelt down and took a good amount of time to make sure he was alright and thankfully he was but he sounds like a caring guy to me.

So from what I hear he sounds like a good man.

Jeff