What do you think is more powerful?

[Rob Kolenc]

So for that unexpected street fight that everyone always talks about...

Two different ways to train.

Contestant 1 does all the physical stuff. Tons of sparring, technique applications, learns dozens of takedown moves, runs 10k regularly, hundreds of situps, goes to tournaments etc.

Contestant 2 does mainly mental stuff. Tons of kata - not the "dance moves" kata, but fully engaged forceful kata with combat visualizations, breathing, great posture, flow, grounding, meditation, breathing exercises etc...and does them all with mind numbing amounts of repetition.

Each of them ends up in the classic "street fight mugging" scenario.

If you had to pick one, which one would you say would do best?

[Rob Kolenc]

And I'm of two minds on this.

One the one hand, I would think if you wanted to get great at something, practicing in the closest possible simulated conditions (ie perhaps sparring) should be the best training?

On the other hand, I've heard that sparring and tournament fighting creates bad habits like practicing pulling punches (until that is your automatic response under pressure) or not going for the deadly effective moves. (i.e. its not a good simulation after all). In this case mental visualization of full contact damaging moves while "shadow boxing" and doing kata, and skills in keeping calm under pressure could win out. There are old martial arts legends that say this is the better path.

What do you think and why?

[MikeK]

Never mind.

[Bill Glasheen]

Why can't I have my cake and eat it too?



Too much science makes us dweebs. Too much poetry makes us basket weavers. Man cannot live by bread alone.

- Bill

[Rob Kolenc]

If trying to understand how to get better at karate makes you a dweeb, then sign me up.

I'm interested in how the mind & body can be made to work better together, what can I say?

poetry...not so much

[AAAhmed46]

I believe kata is the basis of all karate, but doing it all day wont make you a fighter.

But if you create drills based off the PRINICPLES of kata and spar spar spar drills based of principles, spar spar spar
ki kung
Then your great! And of coarse when you reach a certain level you dont need to spar as much and probably need a different focus, but im assuming this is for somone starting karate?

[-Metablade-]

To me, it's all about this:

[Stryke]

the fact is if you do either properly you cant not do the other

to spar and exercise properly you need to look at how the body moves and the techniques you use to fight , sure it`s perverted and corrupted and ineffectual in many places , but kata are merely records of such things codified for teaching . So make your own or practice different skills , but those skills are in essence what kata are supposed to be . Hard Sparring in itself is a test of mindset .

to do kata and mindset training you need to introduce an opponent and test , the same way reading a book on boxing wont make you a boxer , visualising is sure a good way to help mindset but you need pressure , and that comes form an opponent scenario work etc etc .

so it`s never either/or in any usefull training , even if you dump one part or the other you will always need to fill the hole with something , and you can call it kata , excercise , or chi balls , the lesson it`s conveying will be needed either way .

but having said all that I`ll take choice A if they are avoiding any such supplementation .

[Glenn]

Rob,

I understand what you are getting at, but for the record I don't agree with the dichotomy set up. What Contestant 1 is doing requires a lot of mental training as well. Contestant 2 can be just as physical, just not with a partner.

The exercise aspect is irrelevant, as it is, or at least should be, in both. Actually Contestant 2 might be better able to do the 10k and hundreds of situps because s/he is not all battered, bruised, sore, and stiff from all of the body trauma that comes from sparring, takedowns, and tournaments!

I think both are a unified whole that should not be separated. To me it's kinda like asking 'which will keep you alive, eating or breathing?'

Some related aspects of this that should be looked at though, and Bill, among others, frequently points these out:
- do you use different techniques with your sparring/partner-work compared to kata, and if so why?
- does your sparring/partner-work build on your kata, and vice versa, or are they completely different...and if they are different then why?
- if they are different, is one way what you would be more likely to use in a street fight? If so, why do you bother training in the other way at all?

[Rob Kolenc]

Thanks for the posts...and the good points...so really, consensus is the route down the middle I guess. Exercise the mind AND the body equally.

And that makes sense.

.... Those old legends, you never know when to believe them or not, I guess that's my problem. Don't want to throw the baby (proven old techniques that work) out with the bathwater (karate "wife's tales").

[Bill Glasheen]

I don't see kata training as primarily exercising the mind. It is the study of efficient and effective human movement. The mind comes in only to the extent of making it work in synch with the body.

- Bill

[AAAhmed46]

Oh yeah, before we go on, one thing i hear all the time is

"instead of doing kata, shadow box, it's more dynamic and effective and does the same thing,''

In my opinion they are very different.

I mean, I think doing kata is going over the principles of the style and making them a part of your body.

Shadow boxing is practicing tehcniques against an imaginary opponent.

Yeah you can do that with kata, and sometimes you should, but kata lets face it, isnt as dynamic as shadow boxing. But thats okay, because i dont think it was made for that.

[jorvik]

I suppose it really depends on what you mean by "KATA".
I do Wing-Chun, and it is very much KATA based but probably in a different way to what most folks think is kata based.
In the first form there are a number of blocks or jamms, one of them Tan-Sau is similar to standing in Sanchin with only one arm extended, the other arm at your side. When a fist comes along the inside of your extended arm, through your centreline, you let it slide along,and with a slight movement of your elbow you can stop the blow completly.this is structure in your form, the form is only there to serve the purpose of showing you this structure. All of Wing chun is like this, the forms then lead you onto further practises to enhance this, such as partner work or working with equipment.in this sense there is no way that you can seperate your kata from the rest of your art, they all compliment each other
however there is another way, usually found in things like Iado where there is technique but also mental focus, where you try to feel what you are going to do, there are a lot of mental barriers to overcome, fear of failure, fear of consequences, fear of total commitment.
Take as an example you create a kata where you take a knife out and stick it in somebody's neck.a real killing technique...there are kata from fuedal Japan like this.but think of the mental stuff involved..this would be a really difficult kata to do with sincerity and honesty

[Bill Glasheen]

I do Wing-Chun, and it is very much KATA based but probably in a different way to what most folks think is kata based.

I don't see Wing Chun being any different from any other martial system, jorvik. I'm not a Wing Chun expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I did practice "little idea" (your first form) for about a year (1977). I did it to open my eyes up to a sister style of Uechi Ryu. Larry Tan, a Uechi practitioner and mixed CM artist, planted the seed in my head and I ran with it.

What you are talking about is less the system itself and more the execution of that system. There are some (not all) in Wing Chun who do a pretty good job taking kata ideas and bringing them right into partner practice. Some styles do this better than other. But there's nothing stopping a particularly bright individual from taking the essence of movement in the forms of another decent system and running with it.

As for the knife work, well... Good luck, laddie! I'll cheer you on from the sidelines. Seriously though you should be able to take any decent kata and learn to take it to application in multiple venues. One must adapt to the person and the situation. I agree that mindset (and common sense) come into play when dealing with a weaponed opponent. For the most part in my book, the best thing you can do facing someone with a knife is accept the fact that you will get cut. If you can get beyond that point and proceed with clarity of purpose, you might have a snowball's chance in hell. That's better than no chance at all.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Oh yeah, before we go on, one thing i hear all the time is

"instead of doing kata, shadow box, it's more dynamic and effective and does the same thing,''

In my opinion they are very different.

I agree.

You cannot shadow box with a blank slate. First you must be taught techniques. Then you need to be taught HOW to do the techniques. Then you must be taught the grammar of this vocabulary of techniques. You can do that piecemeal, or you can practice kata. It's your choice.

And it never ever hurts to go back to drilling fundamentals. In order to make things work under the Survival Stress Response, one must be capable of doing good technique in mindless fashion. Kata can help you do that at any level.

- bill