very interesting!!!

[JimHawkins]

Let me recap..

I disagree with Jim and think I see what Bill is getting at. I've said before I don't believe in some magic hidden technique that is only passed down to those who have defeated a worthy opponent in mortal kombat. That's BS.

The fact is that much of what made up TMAs was intentionally not passed, changed and replaced with so much fluff.

No question about this, we have seen and heard the evidence.

The motives are what they are, human.

As to the question of effectiveness..

Anything you need to know about fighting comes from those that fight. The marines know more about fighting than some guy's dad ever did.

This depends on your world view.

Whose Dad?

You have no idea what he, or they knew about their kind of combat and their art, their way of fighting or how good he/they was...

This attitude also assumes that "combat" whatever we mean by that, is a known quantity.. Meaning, the best way to engage in combat and teach folks to do same is a fixed and known animal....

With this I would have to strongly disagree.

Combat must first be defined.

And in these cases what we mean by "combat" is strongly culturally rooted. That means what combat means to you is not necessarily what it means to someone else from either another time or another place.

Regardless, IMO the most effective way to train and teach combat is a constantly evolving thing. Like any modern science, we can't say we have the best way to cure the sick, the best way to fly, etc, rather it is constantly evolving..

Furthermore, people are willing to teach this stuff. SPEAR and whatnot... And then there is the whole KISS.

The question here is TMA..

There is no doubt that information was lost, changed and omitted..

Some folks will swear that it doesn't matter.. Well then I submit: If some content doesn't matter then none of it matters and no training <system> matters--just go fight and you'll know all there is to know.. If this was the case there would never have been any need for systems, techniques, styles, training methods, study, etc, etc..

Of course, the reality is that we don't know everything, we are all still learning, all the time... If there was anything learned over the last several hundred years by those whom have studied, fought, died and contributed to these TMA then this information should be considered terribly vital to the study--especially if you study one of those arts.

Were getting back to what martial arts is designed for it`s function .

is it or ever was it martial ?

is it supposed to have a martial focus ?

was it ever to do with negotiating violence

And I think there is no question the ORIGINAL intent of the arts was for combat... But as I said, this may or may not be the same thing for everyone..

As for understanding violence, I think this can very well apply to an art or not.. It depends on what we mean by this term.. Does a boxing coach understand violence? Well sure but it's a particular kind of violence. Does it cover all kinds of real world violence, no of course not. Rather it is a part of the big picture of this really very large and complex topic. No single art has the whole picture it can't.. Just like each discipline in school--the well rounded student must take more than a single subject to graduate.

Is it Do or is it Jutsu? Well I hate hanging labels on things but if I were to call it anything I'd call it 1960 Uechi...Kanei's Uechi. Which I believe was called Uechi-ryu Karate-do.

Do I think it's the original ryu without dilution...no.

Do I think this sensei can use the system in a martial manner...yes of that I have little doubt.

Agreed. It can well be a DO or not and still be very much intended for combative use..

The DO and JITSU issue is something that is a big part of this question too..

The Do arts, as I understand this, are very much designed for combat but the level of difficulty is reduced... In other words the DO is more for the hobbyist whereas the Jitsu training is more for the professional warrior--which can mean all sorts of things too..
Also correct, the reality is that all of this stuff has been changed over time and often not for the better.



The tradition I was taught is to try to leave the art better than you found it.. Don't solely take the word of the priest, use what you can, but in the end find your own truth..

If we all seek to do that instead of leaving the art strictly the way the Martian priest said and we back that up with hard work and results--the why and how, then there is hope for betterment and survival of the art.

[CARLOS SENSEI]

Thank you Laird, we can continue discussing here on the impact of schooling of karate jutsu in japan and its deformation to karate do?
We can build a new discussion in another thread on the training of the Marines?

---------------------------

because the dojo kanbun in Wakayama say in its lobby "pangainoon karate jutsu"?

[Bill Glasheen]

Gracias por comenzar la discusión, Carlos. Continúe por favor.

the impact of schooling of karate jutsu in japan and its deformation to karate do

Deformation? Can you define what you mean by this? Can you give me some examples with Uechi Ryu karate, or is this style too new on Okinawa to have undergone a significant "deformation"?

Like martial arts, very often subtle meanings in language can be "transformed" when going from one language to the next. If we can talk about some specifics, that would help.

- Bill

[CARLOS SENSEI]

in spanish deformed is a different way to give something exists.
if you like to call transform this well.
the deformation of which I speak is the deformation of the objectives & purposes.

[CARLOS SENSEI]

some references of the original article:

They took away much of what in that time was considered dangerous for students, so the the enfasis passed from "self-defense" to "a form of phisical exercise"
-------------------------------

By not teaching the hidden moves of self-defense, the true intentions of the katas (for example to disable or to even kill, in case of being necessary) fell in the dark causing the development of a new tradition
-----------------------------------

This radical transmision period, represent the end of a secret art of self-defense that embraced the spiritualism, and the birth of a recreational phenomenon.
---------------------------------

[Laird2]

I agree with you Carlos the introduction of karate to the public schools changed it forever. Many advertise their system is the real deal. Why even in the Clip of The Uechi 1960 pionneers the narrator refers to how this is the real karate. Even back then we were aware that many martial arts were not what they once were.

This loss of bunkai is prevelent in all martial arts. I believe Uechi is more intact than many of the arts. This is why I chose to train in Uechi. But our beloved style is not exempt from this dismantling of the ryu.

Look at some of the bunkai we teach. Picking up people to use as blocks, jumping over swords....there is a long history of men from mars filling in the blanks with some questionable applications.

I recently viewed a DVD of a well respected sensei demonstrating Bunkai for all kata. He utilized the hawk and sparrow movement from sanseiru to block two kicks delivered from two attacks at the same time. Works great if the attacks are timed perfectly and delivered from the correct angle.



The fact that much has been lost is evidenced by some of the silly bunkai we have dreamed up. Some just accept what the martians say as gospel, some seek their own answers, but the bottom line is Uechi as all arts has lost something over the years.

I think Bill put it best years ago when he indicated with Uechi-Ryu..."some assembly is required"

[Van Canna]

I don’t buy the theory of the ‘hidden moves’ in kata to ‘kill’ _ once in existence and now gone, except for a very few 'privileged ones' What a crock. x

The Uechi system, for example, has all the ‘killing’ moves one would care to want, as well as all the right engagement techniques to short stop, by entry, control and finish.

The main three katas have remained the same, and they have all a practitioner would ever need if any engagement is strategically and tactically necessary by empty hands.

It is the manner of teaching, practicing, conditioning and making it work that has been diluted, along with all the asinine interpretations of the basic movements.

What we see here is Uechi Ryu at its best, and as it was intended to be practiced turning one into a human weapon.

Discovery Channel Video

And, when it comes to real fighting and street survival, you only need two simple things:

1. A few basic, very effective explosive techniques….but most important…
2. An implacable ‘predatory mindset’…calculated and ‘cold blooded’ __

That’s what kills…Those are the real secrets. The rest is mostly BS.

The following will give you an idea of ‘cold blood’ mindset.

Down my way in our beautiful South…disputes and insults or an impending threat are ‘settled’ with horrifying savagery.

See the Sicilian Vespers as an example

The event is named because the insurrection began at the start of vespers on Easter Monday (March 30, 1282) at the Church of the Holy Spirit just outside Palermo. Thousands of Sicily's French inhabitants were massacred over the next six weeks.

Sicilians at the church were engaged in holiday festivities when the French came up to check for weapons and on that pretext began to fondle the breasts of their women.

A sergeant named Drouet dragged a young married woman from the crowd, pestering her with his advances.

Her husband then attacked Drouet with a knife, killing him.


A riot followed, the French were attacked first with rocks, then weapons, killing them all.

The news spread to other cities leading to revolt throughout Sicily. At that moment all the church bells in Palermo began to ring for Vespers.

"By the time the furious anger at their insolence had drunk its fill of blood, the French had given up to the Sicilians not only their ill-gotten riches but their lives as well".

Even pregnant Sicilian women married to Frenchmen were sought out and knifed to death in cold blood by the Sicilians to eliminate the possibility of any French offsprings polluting Sicilian honor.




As to an understanding of violence_ in his book, Rory explains the types of violence.

What we need to understand is what is at the root of the conflict you are now involved in, because it will alert you to the kind of savagery you are about to face.

He mentions that most conflict is about ‘face’ or ‘respect’…we see this here on the forums now and then with the smart ones realizing where the mistakes were made.

It is the destruction of your ‘self image’ that will cause the most violent damage to yourself or others. Again…try to understand the lessons behind the ‘Sicilian Vespers’ _

And Rory leaves you with this

Are you a generally good guy willing to stand up for what’s right?

That’s why your mouth goes dry and your stomach knots up when someone flips you off in traffic or yells a threat _because when the rubber meets the road, you may not be who you think you are. You might lose or you might even run. Or crawl, or beg.

The story you tell yourself is something you have built up since birth. In a very real sense it is your life’s work. The damage to the story will have longer term effects than damage to the body.

The risk to the story, to your self image, status and ego, can generate far more fear than the physical risk.

It doesn’t make any sense but people are weird that way.

This should give a better understanding of the violence quandary.

[CARLOS SENSEI]

ahhhhh !!! we are coming to the heart of the matter.
----------------------------------------------------------

It is the manner of teaching, practicing, conditioning and making it work that has been diluted, along with all the asinine interpretations of the basic movements.VAN CANNA

-----------------------------------------------------------

[Stryke]

Deformation? Can you define what you mean by this? Can you give me some examples with Uechi Ryu karate, or is this style too new on Okinawa to have undergone a significant "deformation"?

Absolutley Bill , but then I`d be accused of Style Bashing , because some folks cannot and will not differentiate between training methods and stylisation .

we have been trying to have these discussions for years , and folks cannot and will not see a discussion of training methods as anything but style bashing .

the problem is the deformation is emotionally invested in .

It is the manner of teaching, practicing, conditioning and making it work that has been diluted, along with all the asinine interpretations of the basic movements.

VAN CANNA

I think the clearest example is that the karate many teach children to fill the classes , is in many sense exactly the karate they teach adults .

And as posted we are in the game of making folks competent , despite what some folks would say .

I also believe that conditioning drills, especially kotikiti, are very important, but the way they are being performed in many dojo is a terrible waste of energy and aren't related to the style at all.

Free fighting is very much a part of the system, but teachers aren't spending as much time using this part of the system to relate the system to actual fighting as I believe they should.

Bunkai is another area where more attention should be spent and unfortunately, in many dojo it isn't.

And, unfortunately, it is much easier to eliminate something we can't do very well and add something that is easier to grasp, but as teachers we must ask ourselves if this is best for our students.

I hope folks can remain logical and keep this impersonal , we all know how a discussion like this usually goes .

[Stryke]

I hink one has to understand Japanese history to get a grasp on this stuff

the period were the martila arts in japan went from fighting arts to sporting arts

The Meiji restoration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Restoration




the original Koryu arts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kory%C5%AB

I would propose that the shift in focus was paralelled in modern karate .

[RACastanet]

"I don’t undderstand so good but I reconit tabe prutty near around about 265 hours of learnin."

The 265 hours of training refers to recorded hours of training under a senior instructor, not total hours. There is much more going on that is not logged. For instance, most of us in Uechi train regularly for many hours when a senior instructor is not present. Most of my Uechi time was in fact not in the presence of a senior Uechi instructor. Did I still improve? Absolutely. Training is training.

Whenever I visit Quantico it is amazing to see Marines out in the field working on their MCMAP skills. That is not part of the total as it is not logged and signed off on by an IT or SME. I did more training in Richmond than at the training school but only the hours on deck under the watchful eye of an IT were logged. When I hit the magic number I was able to test. If all I did was 265 total hours and somehow was allowed to test for the BB I'd have been no where near the level required to pass the test.

I had the good fortune to get my first lesson under SNCOIC Master Gunnery Sergeant Cardo Urso, one of the creators of MCMAP if you will, back in 2000. Guess what... his first style of karate was Uechi-ryu! I am proud to say his signature is on my tan belt certificate. That is provenance.

The second NCOIC was Ricardo Sanders, an internationally ranked Filipino kick boxer and FMA practitioner. The CO at that time was LtCol Nally, a jui jitsu practitioner. After Sanders the NCOIC was Shane Franklin, another Marine who started out in Uechi-ryu and I believe was a 5 dan in Shotokan. So, no question that TMA was and is the heart and soul of MCMAP.

Marines were always deadly war machines at rifle and artillery and airstrike ranges. The purpose of MCMAP was to add bad breath range to the spectrum. Marines are still all riflemen first, but are now all martial artists as well. How far they take it is up to the individual but the Commandant made it claer that a tan belt is only the first rank, and all Marines are encouraged to reach BB status and beyond.

Also, do not overlook the range of the force continuum. As the Marines are continually pressed into police type duties in today's world they must now be capable of assessing a situation and applying the proper amount of force to quell a situation. Call it the 'CNN' rule. A group of teens throwing rocks will get a lesson in pepper spray or joint locks instead of a demo in marksmanship.

Rich

[Laird2]

I don’t buy the theory of the ‘hidden moves’ in kata to ‘kill’ _ once in existence and now gone, except for a very few 'privileged ones' What a crock.

I'm not interested in killing. If I was looking for secret moves of death then I'd be focusing more attention on my blade and my glock. I don't believe anything has been hidden, I believe there are many.....dare I say it...who don't understand. Sorry Bill, love to quote you!

I believe lots of folks are teaching Uechi and planting lots of BS in the dojo. Nothing is hidden, but possibly some things are not understood. The lack of understanding could be a result of language barriers or the result of students who have not finished learning the system teaching it. (This is the spiral of death for a system)

The blind leading the blind, Sensei I don't know shcit. Hell I'm guilty of it too. I started teaching my own crew because the closest place to train is 430 kilometers away. So I started my group when I was a green belt. Outrageous isn't it.

But then again as I understand it some of the first franchisee's were green belts so maybe this isn't that out of the norm.

The main three katas have remained the same, and they have all a practitioner would ever need if any engagement is strategically and tactically necessary by empty hands.

It is the manner of teaching, practicing, conditioning and making it work that has been diluted, along with all the asinine interpretations of the basic movements.

What we see here is Uechi Ryu at its best, and as it was intended to be practiced turning one into a human weapon.

Discovery Channel Video

And, when it comes to real fighting and street survival, you only need two simple things:

1. A few basic, very effective explosive techniques….but most important…
2. An implacable ‘predatory mindset’…calculated and ‘cold blooded’ __

That’s what kills…Those are the real secrets. The rest is mostly BS.

I agree Van the big three contain all we need to get the job done! I believe this is an extremely effective system and we have all the tools to engage and suceed if we train properly and posess the mind set that the system develops when trained in the proper manner. If you face the threat with malicous intent and every strike and movement is intent on destroying what it encounters...no matter how broken you are you will continue to seek to inflict damage on the target one may be of the correct mindset.

But if in training we never engage, we don't condition and we don't seek to strike with power. We can always claim to study for the exercise, or to study as an exploration of another culture. In short we can spout all sort of BS in order to excuss our ineffectiveness.

I also see kata as the foundation of the system. The big three has all we need, train and understand what the movements are. How is it used to what purpose. For example, Sanchin teaches us to transfer weight to hit with power, it also teaches us to breath as our bodies demand. So on compression/ striking we exhale, on expansion we inhale...we allow our bodies to function as they were intended to function. No BS little snake noises . Just breath so you don't get gassed. Fuel the body when it requires fuel.

We can all get strong, we can all condition to be hard, we can all learn to hit like tanks without kata. So what is kata?

I sugest:

Movement that trains the body to move properly in order to perform Uechi techniques? Movements that teach the body to strike with power? Movements that allow one to breath properly if one ignores the Martian BS? Movements that contain the techniques and stratgies of the system?


Is it secret, was anything removed, nope. Does everyone get it...well that is a question we each have to answer individualy. But judging by some of the responces I've seen over the years I'm pretty comfortable casting my ballot early.

Do I have all the answers ...hell no! I'm just uncovering some of the questions. Is Uechi a kick ass system...hell yeah.

The BS and crap I've suffered over the years on this site would not be tolerated if I didn't think this system was exceptional and that their was some thing to be learned by interacting in this place. However I do find it difficult to contend with the partyline spin that goes on. I am honest to a fault and find political deceit most distasteful no matter what the objective of the organization. I am pleased that up until this point no one has started the creative editing that frequently occurs on this site. I am always stunned by the position that everything is perfect and correct in the system and nothing needs questioning. Ostrich also behave in this manner.

Possibly next time an association claims to have all the answers then they might also launch the new crest on the gi...you know the one with the tiger dragon and ostrich.

There is nothing wrong with exploring this line of thought. To deny kata is totally understood is ridiculous. But surely at some point in our history everyone understood why they were doing each movement.

But some of the bunkai we are offered today are one step away from catching bullets between our teeth.

There are some who perform kata with no thought of application. They just do it because they are required to. The perform it as close to sensei's whises as they can muster. They don't know why but in battle a mushin moment will overtake them and kata will rescue them. Remember those old westerns were the calvary arrived in the nick of time...kind of like that.

What do you folks think about the idea that karate is not what it once was? What do you think about kata? What do you think about bunkai?

Is it as simple as everything is a nail so hammer it?

[CARLOS SENSEI]

because if most of those who have 30 or more years of practice in Uechi ryu, we have the feeling that in the 60 and 70 training was much more real, more seriously, stronger and more consistent?
sometimes I think of those time and I look around and I think that what we are doing is a " game of boys " in comparison.
maybe George Van, Jimmy, Bob, and Other great because we can explain this feeling we invade

[Bill Glasheen]

we have been trying to have these discussions for years , and folks cannot and will not see a discussion of training methods as anything but style bashing

{snip}

I hope folks can remain logical and keep this impersonal , we all know how a discussion like this usually goes .

You know what? You couldn't be more right. I agree 100%

Please review some of the posts in this thread. The communication in places is insulting, with no attempt to be subtle at all. And yet some who would communicate in an insulting manner would be the first to cry foul when their honor was infringed upon.

I understand the phenomenon well, because I have been guilty of it in the past. Everyone here has over the years, with the exception of perhaps Carlos. When it is "your boys" hurling the insults, it is amusing. It is literary license. But if you're on the receiving end, the perception can be quite different.

I appreciate the spirit of your comment. Let's all work to open minds and share ideas.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

because if most of those who have 30 or more years of practice in Uechi ryu, we have the feeling that in the 60 and 70 training was much more real, more seriously, stronger and more consistent?
sometimes I think of those time and I look around and I think that what we are doing is a " game of boys " in comparison.
maybe George Van, Jimmy, Bob, and Other great because we can explain this feeling we invade

Carlos

I believe you are quoting Van here.

Hmm...

I'm one of those 30+ year Uechi Ryu practitioners. So... What is my perspective?

• I remember that "karate" was really popular back then. We had lots and lots of people coming in the front doors of the dojos. These days, it's not as popular for myriad reasons. Fads come and go. Interest in karate waxes and wanes.
  
  If you don't have lots of people coming in the front door, then that 5% who stick it out over the long run is a much smaller, and less diversified population. You really do need to run through a lot of people to get a Bobby, Van, Art, Jimmy, Rad (my teacher), George, Kiyohide, Jim Thompson, etc.
• I remember the understanding of Uechi Ryu back then. You know what? I remember a very old Seisan bunkai with a very laughable interpretation of the swinging arms in the turn after the first groin strike. You needed to have two people kicking you simultaneously in both front and back so your swinging arms could block both. Oh ... my ... God! I was relating it to my students just this morning.
  
  I remember all the wacky interpretations I was told back in the early seventies. I remember how bad Uechi Ryu was back then. And frankly... by my recollection, even the tigers of Cambridge and Hancock didn't quite know how to make these Uechi kata work. Bobby was a bit of a martial genius, but he brought much of that over from his Chinese martial arts experience. Art knew how to kick a$$ before he walked in a dojo. Van was an athlete before working with George. Jimmy was born to be a warrior chief.
  
  Only Jim Thompson and Kiyohide had instructors who were pretty close to knowing how to dissect the kata, and studied with them long enough to absorb most of it. Kanei and Seiyu were special.
  
  The way I see it, the tigers of Cambridge and Hancock started knowing how to kick a$$, and then reverse-engineered their knowledge into Uechi.
  
  That works...
• Every day I understand the kata better and better. I never stop picking things up. I never get tired of experimenting and wondering and changing and making parallels to other seemingly distant disciplines (music, mathematical chaos, olympic weight lifting, etc.).
  
  I never had the luxury of someone spoon-feeding me this stuff. And you know what? I don't think that was ever the Okinawan way. In some ways I was blessed being separate from much of the U.S. experiment in Uechi Ryu in the 70s and beyond. I had a few years of instruction, and then had to work the rest on my own. Go visit George, go visit Bob Campbell, go to camp and work with Nakahodo, Takamiyagi, Miyagi, and Tomoyose, work with a special forces instructor in Goju and aikido, work on some FMA, and then draw from my own experiences as an athlete.
  
  In my view, that's martial arts. It isn't a book that you read from beginning to end and the secrets are revealed. It isn't a complete package that you get from one instructor of one style. It's a journey, and it isn't supposed to end.
• As for intensity... I had my days when I practiced martial arts like Kamakaze Bill. My first Uechi instructor loved me for it.
  
  I'm 50-something now. I'd rather watch someone else get the &^%$ beat out of them while standing in Sanchin. I'd rather work smarter. I figure I earned it.
  
  And I never saw Kanei beating people, nor did I see him taking beatings. I really prefer the give-and-take of kotekitae.
• In my older age, I'm picky. I look at that Discovery Channel video, and I don't like the way Kanchin is being practiced. I do it differently. I teach it differently. I watch what they are doing, and wonder how they could ever fathom using some of the techniques with the mechanics being displayed.
  
  And that's the way it SHOULD be.

- Bill