A new teacher with an interesting student issue...

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Greetings to all,

It has been some time since I have participated in discussion here, though I do lurk from time to time.

I teach children's and adults' classes at a local sports club. My adult students are at a stage where we are beginning very basic contact with basic wrist grab escapes. One of my students, a middle-aged woman, "feels faint" and needs to sit down each time we work these very basic and, at this point, very gentle techniques. Simple kata movements applied to "same hand" and "cross hand" grabs with emphasis on the whole body's role in the movement. She is a diligent student with her personal practice and has made great progress in the processing of the material from a movement perspective, but when the application of the movement is inserted, she has these spells.

I believe that each student has the capacity for this material, but has their own hurdles to clear in the process. I try to help each identify their particular hurdles and approaches that may help. This one has me stumped.

Can any one here help me shed some light on what is happening here? How may I help her?

thanks,

[IJ]

Should we assume that she can do the required effort without a partner, and more? In other words, that these spells aren't a sign of (apparently quite limited) conditioning? I guess there could always be more physical stress when there is the added issue of partner work, but that would probably be minimal, and while it would always be nice to have some information about her exam during a spell (heart rate? pale? cold sweaty palms? other symptoms like nausea, trouble breathing, pain, tunnel vision?) they usuall don't hold the key. If the concern is that this is not a physical problem, but a mental block, perhaps there's some back story that suggests why, such as a history of assault or just an interpersonal style that doesn't include contact or force. Have you talked with her about this and what she thinks is going on?

[Bill Glasheen]

Ian touched on a lot here.

• Physical conditioning issues?
• Psychological issues?

It doesn't hurt to have a quick medical checkup just as a CYA move.

Once that is done, I'm thinking that one day you may open Pandora's mental box here. So many of my female students come to karate with issues from their past. Part of the training for them is shedding themselves of this baggage so they can get on with their lives.

Just a thought...

There may be some odd physical issues, such as her being hypersensitive to certain kyusho points. I've seen it happen. We accidentally dropped one not-so-ditsy female student a few times. She's now a shodan, and a PhD in biology. It's just her physiology. No biggie...

- Bill

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Excellent points. I had immediately zoomed in on psychological issues. Physical conditioning would not SEEM to be an issue since she plays a lot of tennis and participates in other exercise classes offered at the club and has no trouble with the movements in a solo context. Plus, we are not into a very vigorous level of contact at this point; merely introducing concepts.

Personality-wise, she is a somewhat timid person. She is reluctant to make much of a kia. Personal issues may be a factor. I have had a few conversations with her, but no real information has been forthcoming. I will pursue this.

The kyusho points had entered my mind. In TCM terms (please excuse), heart, lung, small intestine, large intestine, pericardium, and triple warmer are potentially activated with these grabs. I'll do some more research here.

Her description is "light-headed" or "feeling faint". I have not checked her pulse (feel like a dumbass for that), but will next time. Palms are not cold or sweaty. Pain is not indicated. Her breathing seems fine. I will push for more precise descriptions from her (tunnel vision? etc.).

I kind of feel like I may be in over my head, but this is why we begin teaching at a certain level of training, no? I will proceed with deliberate caution.

Thanks guys, I'll stay in touch.

[IJ]

One can't say without being there, and examining the patient (in addition to what I listed a blood pressure would be helpful but not readily available), but the most common cause of these symptoms is a vasovagal / common faint physiology. When people get their blood drawn, or stand at attention, or get a bit too much sun, or have GI upset, sometimes it triggers a decline in blood pressure that causes lightheadedness (sometimes associated with nausea, tunnel vision, sweating, pallor) and can progress to loss of consciousness. Management usually only requires that the person sit or lay down, and as far as risk, the worst likely outcome is falling and hitting one's head. Of course avoiding episodes is ideal, but here perhaps there's a way to condition her to tolerate the activity without having the ill effects.

Serious outcomes from athletic activity and passing out usually relate to underlying heart disease. Patients may have a predisposition to an arrythmia because of problems with the electrical system of the heart (failure of the heart beat generator, long QT syndrome, Brugada syndrome, electrolyte problems, preexcitation syndromes) or structural problems (tight valves, heart muscle overgrowth and others) or later in life, arrythmias provoked by poor blood flow from coronary artery disease. Given the story (tolerates more vigorous exercise, feels better after brief rest, hasn't truly passed out) it SOUNDS like a more stress related / benign thing, but can't say without the eval Bill suggested. In any case those athlete deaths are very rare but devastating.

Has she done the exercises steadily and vigorously without a partner and then gotten into trouble with light partner work, and has she tolerated other partner work?

[Bill Glasheen]

Personality-wise, she is a somewhat timid person. She is reluctant to make much of a kia. Personal issues may be a factor. I have had a few conversations with her, but no real information has been forthcoming. I will pursue this.

My suggestion - worth 2 cents and some change - is this. Don't aggressively pursue it. Rather be an active listener. If she wants to talk about it, she eventually will. My experience has been that a partner exercise will trigger a kind of "flashback" that will make the woman want to talk about it. I don't give advice. I just listen. Instructors can or should be good at helping debrief individuals about certain aspects of human conflict. Grossman talks a lot about this in his writings - the concept of the "slow boat ride home" after combat. Individuals who have been there listen to other individuals who have just been there. Good friends and fellow warriors multiply joy, and divide grief.

On a couple of rare occasions, I've helped the individual get some professional help. One must never forget that a karate instructor isn't a licensed, professional counselor.

I kind of feel like I may be in over my head, but this is why we begin teaching at a certain level of training, no? I will proceed with deliberate caution.

It sounds to me like you're doing fine.

- Bill

[TSDguy]

You not knowing what's going on with her is unrelated to why you're there to teach them karate. I agree with Bill; teach her karate as much as she'll let you and don't pry into her personal life. Of course watch out for health problems, but you're already doing that.

[Ted Dinwiddie]

I certainly do not want to pry. it is an interesting line to walk, I am finding.

The personality type thread has been interesting, I am INFP.

Thanks for the input, I will keep you posted.

[Bill Glasheen]

The personality type thread has been interesting, I am INFP.

Ahh... You are an Idealist!

Your personality type shows you to be laid back and a good listener. So you are already halfway there!

- Bill

[Ted Dinwiddie]

Some follow-up fyi:

She did tell me she has had some "low blood pressure issues."

She can only do one forward roll before she is so dizzy she can't continue.

I am not pushing her for info, but encouraging her to be mindful of "issues" which can manifest themselves during training.

Thanks for the info and advice, I'll keep updating as appropriate.

[Bill Glasheen]

This is helpful, Ted.

Having baseline low blood pressure can make someone hypersensitive to vasovagal stimulation. You could use her for all your kyusho demos and tell you admiring students that this is a "typical" result.

One more thing... Suggest that she get checked out by an ENT specialist. There may be something going on with her vestibular system (a.k.a. "inner ear") Or... she may be one of those people who typically hurls when they go on any amusement park ride with a name like "apple turnover."

- Bill