Let discuss cooperative drills

[gmattson]

Everyone knows my views about the drills and their place in Uechi-ryu. One of the reasons I like them, and require them to be done in our dan tests, is that the drills test a number of qualities I feel are important in our art and in self-defense:

1. Safe way to teach interacting with a partner.
2. As students advance, drills can be racheted up in speed and intensity.
3. Learn to be calm under attack conditions.
4. Stress on "flow", balance, timing and distancing are an important part of the drills.
5. Become more difficult as drills are perfomed faster.
6. Trading techniques at speed teach a calmness under fire.
7. More experience with the drills - gain more control over chemical cocktail.
8. More experience - less time dealing with machine gun type attacks and faster controlling actions.

As part of Dr. Greg Postal's thesis, Greg included a very good example of how many IUKF teachers view and teach the drills.

Here is Greg's kyu kumite: http://uechi-ryu.com/vidclips/postal-kk-2009.wmv

I'll be including other examples and I hope you will include your video here as well. My feeling about the drills has never changed - but you should at least be able to do them before you begin to knock them.

[MikeK]

1. Safe way to teach interacting with a partner. Maybe, but we don't use them and haven't lost anyone yet.

2. As students advance, drills can be racheted up in speed and intensity. Does this just make them better at choreography, is there a diminishing return here?

3. Learn to be calm under attack conditions. Do they really become calmer under attack conditions or just get used to the drill and learn to trust their partner?

6. Trading techniques at speed teach a calmness under fire. But do you want to teach trading techniques or to finish the other guy?

7. More experience with the drills - gain more control over chemical cocktail. Do they lose the chemical cocktail because they just get used to the drill and learn to trust their partner? Is there a diminishing return by doing the drills for too long?

8. More experience - less time dealing with machine gun type attacks and faster controlling actions. Can you clarify?

[Bill Glasheen]

Hey, Mike!

Thanks for coming on board to play devil's advocate. Your comments are always welcome.

1. Safe way to teach interacting with a partner. Maybe, but we don't use them and haven't lost anyone yet.

I'm not sure what point you are making here, Mike. You haven't really offered a valid comparison of processes and outcomes. "Interacting with a partner" could mean having sex, and I've never been hurt (physically) doing that. What techniques are you doing with your partner? Under what conditions? To what level of intensity? What would be the consequences of someone "missing" in a response to your techniques? (I accidentally knocked someone out on the old Dan Kumite #3 when they executed an imperfect response to my attack. "Safe" has its limits; we don't play around.)

Ruminate on all that a bit.

2. As students advance, drills can be racheted up in speed and intensity. Does this just make them better at choreography, is there a diminishing return here?

Quite definitively... No and yes.

3. Learn to be calm under attack conditions. Do they really become calmer under attack conditions or just get used to the drill and learn to trust their partner?

A little bit of both.

It's like practicing your instrument at home vs. playing in front of a crowd, Mike. At-home practice helps - up to a point.

6. Trading techniques at speed teach a calmness under fire. But do you want to teach trading techniques or to finish the other guy?

Yes and yes.

In my Shorei Kai Goju Ryu, I had a bunkai for every kata except Sanchin and Tensho. There were 10 yakusoku kumite.

My instructor - who by the way offed more than a few people as a Green Beret and subsequently became and instructor for them - used to choreograph these wonderful and complex bunkai for the kata. The theme was this... The kata would be performed collectively by the two of you. Sometimes person A was doing the kata, and sometimes person B was. You'd go on and on and on. For every attack, there was a response w/o a finishing technique. For every counterattack, there was a response w/o a finishing technique. You got used to doing the techniques of the kata against someone who didn't roll over and die on your first technique (of doom). Only at the very last attack did someone finish the whole sequence off with an ippon - usually a takedown and a technique they weren't going to walk away from.

What this did is give you the confidence that - like in a competitive MMA fight - you could calmly keep going and going and going against someone who was a most difficult nut to crack. You weren't going to have an "Oh schit!" moment after Igor didn't die from your "death blow." My instructor was fond of the use of water as a metaphor. You keep flowing and flowing and flowing until you find the crack in the basement and then rush in.

There's something else going on here, Mike, and I teach it to anyone who takes the time to learn. Kyu kumite is an example of this. Gary Khoury once asked one of the Okinawan masters why our yakusoku kumite weren't more direct and brutal. The answer? "Then they'd be too short!" There is some truth to this.

In Kyu kumite, I find myself doing "fit" after "fit" without throwing an ippon. Number 3 is a great example. I catch a kick with sukuiage uke, and throw it down again. I set up for a shot to the groin or femoral crease when the attacker throws a roundhouse, but I choose not to take it. I stop just short of breaking the person's nose as they charge with the 3rd attack. Then I rush in and throw a few techniques just to polish it off.

In judo when you practice a shoulder throw, you may do fit after fit after fit without throwing the person over. Why? Your partner's body can only take so much of the slamming, and you need your practice time. So like something else in life where it's there right on the edge but you hold off because you're enjoying yourself, you do lots and lots of shoulder throw fits. And then maybe after 20 of them, you consummate the fit with a shoulder throw that makes the dust bounce off the mats. BOTH of you are happy. And you aren't likely just to do a fit in the field. Maybe... but not likely.

I like all my "fits" in Kyu Kumite. Just to show my students I'm playing for real, I'll just take one of them now and then. It has a most unusual effect. Because you know your partner wasn't expecting it, you won't get a patsy response. Thus the execution - or lack thereof - is a lot more intellectually honest for you.

7. More experience with the drills - gain more control over chemical cocktail. Do they lose the chemical cocktail because they just get used to the drill and learn to trust their partner? Is there a diminishing return by doing the drills for too long?

This is a second time you asked the question, and the answer is still yes. The law of diminishing returns is... a LAW!

So then you pick them apart, rearrange things, teach them, come up with some of your own, etc. It's an exercise. It has its uses; it has its limits. I don't obsess over them as some do on both sides of the fence. We have lots of other things we do as well.

But... I DO require that my students do them in a convincing and useful manner. I DO pick them a part and choreograph on the spot to extend the learning of a useful principle. I DO require that they don't just back up, and that they can discuss the concept of a line of force. I DO require that they hit me if I fail to do a block. (You'd be surprised... ) I want them done thoughtfully, and I want them done well. Otherwise go home and watch some kung fu movies.

- Bill

[TSDguy]

In judo when you practice a shoulder throw, you may do fit after fit after fit without throwing the person over. Why? Your partner's body can only take so much of the slamming

I don't know where you got that from. When I took Judo you bloody well got slammed every single time or you got out of the class because you're a little school girl. It wasn't uncommon to do 2 straight hours of trading hip throws with a partner if there were a lot of new students that required the instructors' attention. Hell, every judo or JJ class I've ever seen or attended warmed up with slamming yourself into the floor a few dozen times.

[Bill Glasheen]

Why isn't this mouse dead yet?



Ever seen a cat play with a mouse?





- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

In judo when you practice a shoulder throw, you may do fit after fit after fit without throwing the person over. Why? Your partner's body can only take so much of the slamming

I don't know where you got that from. When I took Judo you bloody well got slammed every single time or you got out of the class because you're a little school girl. It wasn't uncommon to do 2 straight hours of trading hip throws with a partner if there were a lot of new students that required the instructors' attention. Hell, every judo or JJ class I've ever seen or attended warmed up with slamming yourself into the floor a few dozen times.

I got that from Steven King - the green beret who killed more people than you and I ever will (combined) in a lifetime.

Dr. King started as a child in judo. Then he studied Kyokushinkai Ryu. Then Goju with Yamaguchi Gosei, and subsequently with Kimo Wall. And then he entered the Green Beret program, and went to Vietnam.

You have your experiences; we have ours.

For what it's worth... I learned some judo and aikido (up to shodan) in Dr. King's home. His dojo was a concrete floor with a carpet over it. I got a shoulder separation to show for my time on the floor. Ever see the throw in The Matrix where the guy spins horizontal to the floor when his kick is grabbed and twisted around? I goofed!

I broke one arm and tore one lateral meniscus in my training with that group. Both guys were black belts. We were intense enough...

I was most appreciative of the fact that Dr. King was also a chiropractor. I got free adjustments when needed.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Not playing devil's advocate at all Bill, I'm just trying to understand where George is coming from. I'm not a fan of the Uechi pre-arranged work but I'd like to hear more about why George believes it's beneficial. I can see some benefit of the Kyu Ks early on but with a drop in benefit depending upon the person. I don't really see the benefit of the Dan Kumite at all and can see how they can be more of a distraction to what is trying to be taught. With that said I'd like to hear other views.

My instructor - who by the way offed more than a few people as a Green Beret and subsequently became and instructor for them - used to choreograph these wonderful and complex bunkai for the kata.

Don't know what your instructor's kills while in SF has to do with anything, but the SF guys I've played with always went the other direction, simpler rather than complex. Also I can't remember any of them presenting or making permanent something like the K or D Kumites.

Question, if these things have a diminishing return the longer you do them, why expect or require people to keep doing them past a certain point?

[f.Channell]

Yes I trained full time in Judo and we did what we called "fit-ins". Might do 9-10 and throw them on the last one. Same thing after with another throw. Then the other partners turn.
This on top of Randori and the practice ukemi at the beginning of class you were definately going to be taking some falls.
In spite of the training and competition I never hurt a thing. Other than two of us getting thrown into each other and banging heads. Mine split open pretty nice, seven staples.
Nice thing about a judo gi is it makes a great bandage.

Still had the staples in my head competing at sensei Mattsons last tournament.

F.

[gmattson]

I wrote that post early this morning before my 7am golf match!

Mostly I wanted to attempt discussing the subject of drills in a serious manner with people who kept an open mind about the subject. Many people have gone through black belt tests where they did really badly on the dan kumite segment. No balance, control, timing or distancing in any of the moves. In other words they really sucked at the performance. Naturally they will be applauding anything negative being said about the drills.

Others, who coincidentally are very respected martial artist in the Uechi world, like Kyohidi Shinjo are very much in favor of the drills in Uechi and their performances are quite good.

I would think that anyone who drops them from their curriculum would at least be super good at performing them, before dropping them or knocking them.

I'd like to see them perform the drills before telling me how terrible they are.

For those who feel they are helpful in developing martial art qualities. . . and there are many respected Uechi people who do them very well. . . please drop in and let us know if the drills helped you in any way or were they just something you do well.

And don't forget. . . please let us see your kyu kumite and dan kumite performance. If you have a problem posting the clip, send it to me and I'll get it up on this thread.

[Bill Glasheen]

Don't know what your instructor's kills while in SF has to do with anything, but the SF guys I've played with always went the other direction, simpler rather than complex.

His bunkai choreography was no more and no less complex than it took to give the student a chance to use kata techniques with a partner. The goal was to teach the kata. If you're not going to try using the techniques with a partner, then IMO you're wasting your time doing them in the first place.

I guess I view it like this. If you do kata, you need (good) bunkai and yakusoku kumite so you'll understand what the heck you are doing. But it's only a start.

Question, if these things have a diminishing return the longer you do them, why expect or require people to keep doing them past a certain point?

Good question.

So you can teach more students de novo. You need teachers to know the teaching tools.

How they use them and how well they use them is another story.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Others, who coincidentally are very respected martial artist in the Uechi world, like Kyohidi Shinjo are very much in favor of the drills in Uechi and their performances are quite good.

Shinjo Seiyu was always coming up with his own choreography. I got exposed to some of his drills while studying with Dave Finkelstein.

Kenyukai now has its own yakusoku and bunkai kumite, allowing the Shinjo family an opportunity to leave their own legacy. They are quite nice.

See Training Videos. The Shinjo family have retained a lot of the older prearranged material, and added their own.

- Bill

[hoshin]

i prefer to use the drills.
but i make modifications depending on the persons rank and ablility. even at white belt i would like to see punches that will have an impact and a penalty for not exicuting a proper defense. green belts and above i would like to see hands in a boxers type gaurd (closed fist sanchin) and not chambering on the punch. mixing up the cadence of the drill. the uke should not be able to start their defense just because they know what is comming next. it can be quite easy to knock someone on their butt with your punch if they already blocked a phantom punch that never was thrown, so mix it up.
i remember Larry Tan saying that karate is a language of movement and that a lot of people are "speaking" a dead language because they have no idea what the movements mean or are for. having said that if you use a drill you probably have good reasons for useing it. if you dont like it, i say modify it, make it work for you.
kind of like taking a frame from an old car the engine may be junk but the frame is still good so re-vamp it. there is no sense throwing out a frame work someone else did all the work to make and having to invent something for your self. its much easier to refurbish.

i would hope that if someone saw a clip of me doing the kumite drills ( and didnt know them well) they would not be abe to tell the difference between a pre aranged drill and free sparing.

[gmattson]

Safe way to teach interacting with a partner. Maybe, but we don't use them and haven't lost anyone yet.

Well Mike, you know what our drills are, but I don't know what you are doing that makes them both effective and safe. One step drills we have been doing for 50 years at white belt level. First thing we do to get people "interacting". But putting a couple moves together is a lot more stressful for someone who has never fought and is still trying to figure out their left from right.

Not sure if you checked out Greg's video. If you did and you are a teacher, then you should understand my statement. Greg made it very clear about the progression of the drills. Bunkai is also very important (on a test it carries far more points than dan kumite) and the stress is on a single application.

2. As students advance, drills can be racheted up in speed and intensity. Does this just make them better at choreography, is there a diminishing return here?

This is a good point and I'm not so sure becoming familiar with any attack and dealing with it won't carry over to some extend to a real fight. A boxer becomes quite comfortable "duking" it out and on the street. [That might change in a multiple attack or a weapon introduced]

In a real fight I'd much prefer to have a Fedele Cacia or Gary Khoury with me than someone who was (at Art Rabesa called them) a kata queen, with no experience in competition or even dojo sparring under his belt.

6. Trading techniques at speed teach a calmness under fire. But do you want to teach trading techniques or to finish the other guy?

Again, good point. When you are "in control" of a situation, be it anything, you can control what you do. I can practice any drill and modify the hell out of it. I'm not a slave to the technique or routine. In my mind, I'm simply practicing different moves and a I explain and demonstrate to my students, at any time am able to shut them down with any of the moves I use in the drills. We don't attack arms or legs. We are attacking 'center' lines of the opponent with our moves. . . even if we don't complete every one. (How many times has this been repeated on the forums)

More experience with the drills - gain more control over chemical cocktail. Do they lose the chemical cocktail because they just get used to the drill and learn to trust their partner? Is there a diminishing return by doing the drills for too long?

If you have the belief that every punch or kick is exactly the same as in the last drill, perhaps. But in real life and with different students, this is never the case. There is always an element of danger that exists whenever someone is attacking you. In our dojo, people get hit if they don't defend themselves. . . and often the punch or kick is off line, way low or high. There is relative safety performing the drills. . . but there should always be the feeling that the attacker "is trying to hit you"!

[AAAhmed46]

Do you continue to fight after doing the kumite sometimes?

[Bill Glasheen]

Do you continue to fight after doing the kumite sometimes?

Sometimes I find myself embellishing on the finale. Some sequences beg the continuation more than others, such as Kyu kumite number 5. I find myself finishing with a rear naked choke.

One of the best examples I saw of this - albeit prearranged - was a piece of jiujitsu work done by Mike Murphy. I always thought that grappling finished what Uechi Ryu started. Mike exploited that same thought by finishing every sequence with one of his Nippon jiujitsu moves.

i would hope that if someone saw a clip of me doing the kumite drills ( and didnt know them well) they would not be abe to tell the difference between a pre aranged drill and free sparing.

One of the best teaching compliments I ever got was from a former gymnast. She came to watch my UVa "mid term" karate test, where we have people do all the yakusoku and bunkai kumite. She watched kyu and dan kumite for 5 minutes before turning to me with mouth open and saying "Those are prearranged??"

Thank you, brown belts. And thank you, Amy Gardner!

- Bill