Let discuss cooperative drills

[f.Channell]

I would say as a Uechi teacher the kumite are the most difficult part of the curriculum to teach. Really in order to teach it you have to be able to do it backwards and forwards with your eyes closed. Teach both the attack and defense portion at the same time, as well as distancing etc...

I don't think they are entry level at all, I don't teach it at the entry level, more after 6 months to a year. Otherwise people have a tendency to back up or "run away" with too much distance to counter.

In importance. I would put Kata, conditioning, bunkai, ahead of Kumite.
But never shelf it.
Just because I can bench 200 today, doesn't mean in a year without benching I'll still be able to. because I can do a Dan today, doesn't mean I can still do it fast and balanced in a year from now either without practice.

There are ways to adapt them also to make them more challenging.
Take Kyu for example, and instead or running through them in their regular pattern. Let your partner randomly select which set to attack with.
Different animal now.

F.

[MikeK]

Hi George,
A 7AM golf game sounds like a great way to start the day.

I checked out Greg's video, but to be honest I didn't really see much progression. No offense to Greg but everything still started out looking like the kyu, kept the same cadence, intent and the same working distance as the kyu. I think the idea was good but the execution was still within the kyu box, which may be what Greg was seeking.

I'm going to bow out of the thread and lurk for a while. I think what you're trying to discuss is truly foreign to me and at this point most anything I say will probably be opposite of the view you and Bill have, and I'm more trying to understand where you're coming from rather than arguing for why my way is better. (Maybe it's not).

Thanks for answering my questions George, I'll follow the thread, and who knows, maybe you'll convert me to using these kind of drills.

[Bill Glasheen]

I would say as a Uechi teacher the kumite are the most difficult part of the curriculum to teach. Really in order to teach it you have to be able to do it backwards and forwards with your eyes closed. Teach both the attack and defense portion at the same time, as well as distancing etc....

Fred

Very good points!

A wise person once said that there are three stages to learning: watching, doing, and teaching. IMO this final stage delivers the most important development for my students.

I will often send brown belts off to teach a beginner Kyu Kumite. And you know what? Many cannot do the very thing you are talking about. With the person standing right there in front of them, they cannot see that they are in the wrong stance. It's maddening... but very predictable. So what does this say about the ability of these students to read what their opponent is doing?

And yes, I honestly believe that throwing beginner after beginner at them and making them demonstrate the fruits of their work to a class (or the head teacher) is an important learning experience. When they are up there, I don't pick on the beginner. I save my testiness for the brown belt or newbie shodan. Bad student? Usually not. After they struggle... when you the show them that they CAN get this brand new beginner through the exercise in a few minutes of prodding and dragging, then they get it.

Even if this is a prearranged kumite they've only done for a short while, I truly believe in the value of being able to transfer it while also performing their part correctly. As I explain to students... Ideally when you fight, you are monitoring the activity of two (or more) people. You should simultaneously be able to control what you are doing and be aware of all the nuances of your one or more opponents. Some people have more of an intellectual aptitude for this than others - one of the eight or so dimensions of overall intelligence. But even with limited aptitude, everyone can get better at this with effort.

I take great pride in being able to "drag" just about anyone through any partner exercise I've been able to pick up from learning or observation. Yes, you need to learn both parts. And yes as Fred says, then you need to be doing both parts - in two bodies. There's a trick to this, and I believe it does help you read an opponent. I will verbalize what is to be done for the other person, and either mirror it or touch their various body parts as I tell them what to do. I use a left foot touch on their right foot to tell them to step forward with the right, and touch their right hand with my left to tell them to punch with the right. Etc., etc.

Later when one is doing jiyu work, all this mental/physical exercise comes in handy. The experienced partner exercise teacher can be monitoring the movement (and perhaps intent) of himself and others. Rad Smith often would tell me about Bobby Campbell's phenominal talent for knowing what you were going to do when sparring. And I know Bobby did a lot of teaching through the years - including many styles of Chinese martial arts. Bobby's genius as a teacher was (and still is) apparent. And anyone who was doing Uechi in the 1970s was aware of Bobby's world-class fighting talent.

The talent actually goes beyond martial arts. Through my many years of teaching via both physical and verbal domains, I've found that I have an exceptional public speaking ability on the job - in science. I can monitor people in the crowd as I'm going through a talk that is outline only. The mouth now communicates without me consciously giving it much thought. The occasional question is something that doesn't fluster me. In fact if you're good, the question they ask is answered on the next slide. I love it when that happens. Does this transfer to "verbal self defense" skills? I have to believe so.

- Bill

[Jeff Cook]

I chuckle with perplexed puzzlement whenever I see the "anti-drill" nonsense come out.

The US military trains with the exact same method - prearranged drills, culminating in some sort of collective war-fighter (i.e. kumite) exercise. Our military went into battle during Desert Storm and in 2001 with very little combat experience. Our military did outstanding, and continues to do so. Wow, the method must actually work!

Training for real fighting/combatives is a balance between safety and realism. The safer it is, the less real it becomes. The more real it is, the less safe it is. It's all about finding a balance, and not eroding combat efficiency by injury through unsafe practices, but also not eroding combat efficiency by dancing around with no worry in the world of injury. You old karate guys seem to have the perfect mix of both; hats off to you!

For the judo folks, the practice you describe is called "uchikomi," formerly known as "butsukari" in the old ju-jitsu terminology ("crashing in"). It is sorta like atemi with your entire body, while utilizing kuzushi - knock the crap out of the other guy as hard as you can, with your body, as you take his balance. If it is done vigorously and correctly, that action is literally 95% of the throw. Once you take the balance and pick him up, all that's left is for gravity to take over and finish it for you. It is HARDER to NOT throw your partner at this point, then it is to just let him bash into the mat.

If it makes you feel any better, judo guys argue about the utility of uchikomi practice as well. I see no problem with it; there have been hundreds, if not thousands, of world-class judoka who did just fine with that practice in conjunction with kata and randori.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Jeff Cook

[gmattson]

I checked out Greg's video, but to be honest I didn't really see much progression. No offense to Greg but everything still started out looking like the kyu, kept the same cadence, intent and the same working distance as the kyu. I think the idea was good but the execution was still within the kyu box, which may be what Greg was seeking

Yea Mike. . . Greg was attempting to show progression and variation to our old and venerable kyu kumite. It is supposed to use the principles and techniques of kyu kumite. Greg was attempting to show how the simple kyu kumite drill can be used to demonstrate a degree of control, balance, timing and ability to learn and assimilate self-defense skills and taking those skills to a degree of stress without too much danger to the participants.

Of course, not everyone has the skills necessary to do them and in dan tests, the drills show weaknesses in the candidate that are quite apparent to the test board. Robotic performances, inability to handle simple (and prearranged) attacks, poor timing and mindset are things that the test board look for in these drills. . . that round out a test nicely.

[gmattson]

Good points you make about the military. Few recruits join the military with fighting experiences that will help them in an actual battle. How do you prepare someone for that first "real" encounter with an enemy?

The training has evolved a great deal since 1955 when I joined the army. All for the better I'm sure.

[jorvik]

I think it comes down to the way that you view your martial art some want a deadly street system, some a holistic health system............no pleasing everyone ..........here's a Uechi film that folks may not have seen with Master Tomy

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=J7te6UwgSOY

[Van Canna]

Hi Jeff,

This post is in no way meant to be at odds with what you posted...but only as an opportunity for me to clarify my feelings here, and to thank you for having given me this opportunity.

I wasn’t going to get involved In this discussion for reasons of my own, but after you wrote

I chuckle with perplexed puzzlement whenever I see the "anti-drill" nonsense come out.

And then receiving this message [ to follow] _ from an extremely well respected Uechi senior [we’d be really surprised] ….who prefers to remain anonymous in his perception of what he terms ‘shameful strife’ over such subject matter….

....I decided to clarify my position on this once more by posting it here, along with my views _ as perhaps it might serve to bring some relief to what has happened as a result of this banter on ‘drills’ resulting in Rick’s resignation letter on this forum and his subsequent banning along with Laird and Marcus.

Rick can always be reached at his email address… mailto:wilson@wilsonkarate.com if anyone cares to question him on why his feelings are so extreme.

Rick, in particular, has been a fantastic contributor to the forums since their inception...in fact he was the first one to respond to my initial postings on my brand new forum...and he should be shown some consideration.

I am not blaming anyone for what has transpired…human nature is what is.

Emotional high-jacking and misperceptions in the cyber world are legion.

If we were to sit at a round table over some good scotch, I bet we would all behave in more friendly ways.

What I got was this message

The K Bash- last gasp…All have good points.
Each misreads the other in their own subtle ways.

Everyone is reading too
fast and misses good points. There are a few absolute statements that will
later come back and bite the writers later.

Everyone is being hasty... Some taking umbrage over the breaking of past
relationships, like old lovers...

However, take all these opinions combine them into one inclusive statement with a generous helping of positive paraphrasing and rearranging, removing the absolutes and you'll have one hell of a great training essay and
guideline on UechiRyu training and fighting...

Well, hard to disagree here.

Now my opinion for whatever it is worth…and maybe I should ‘blow my horn’ a bit here as everyone else has done in the past to make their points.

Just a short one…my Uechi skills as a trainer/sensei and a competitor, and as a performer in real life attacks…is well respected both here in the States and in Okinawa by the current Okikukai Masters, whom I respect immensely, along with Toyama sensei of the Zankai association.

Toyama sensei once personally invited me to train with him personally in Okinawa...and Walter Mattson, upon his return from Okinawa during the Holidays, told me that Masters Tomoyose, Takamiagy, and Higa..were sending me their personal salutations and regards.

Mark Breslford, a well respected 8th Dan under Nakahodo sensei, also indicated at camp that I enjoy the respect and trust of the Okinawan masters.

I hold a ninth Dan in the Uechi system, and something that is worth to me more than any other ‘paper’ in the world…a SHIHAN [Instructor certificate] No 7 _ issued by Soke Shubukan on Jan 18 1975 and signed by Master Kanei Uechi.

When I attended the Rengokai seminar in Florida …a few years back…Tomoyose sensei, George’s teacher, who was part of the mixed group of masters of the Rengokai seminar, ‘plucked me’ out of the crowd in effusive ways, and had me at his side during the seminar and in the special room set up for the masters for rest and victuals.

While at his side, Master Tomoyose graciously introduced me personally to all masters at the table with accolades about my teaching and competition achievements in Uechi Ryu.

[Van Canna]

Now that we got this out of the way…

As to drills…but of course drills are necessary to solidify skills in application goals.

But then we must define ‘drills and application’ …__

This is important….Because, for one, our dear friend Rory Miller, points out in his wonderful book, the various flaws in some drills, and he is not referring to the Uechi drills in particular.

A good read of his book here would be very beneficial.

I was a damn good Infantry soldier, well trained in advanced infantry tactics, hand to hand combat, and M1 Garand fixed bayonet prowess gained from incessant drills.

We drilled the bayonet in two man ‘kumites’ but in chilling realism by a DI …a Korean war veteran…a Sergeant Garcia…who was famous for having killed many enemy soldiers with his bayonet and Jiu-Jitsus skills.

His training team was composed of similar experienced veterans…pretty scary to watch their faces when they ‘fixed bayonets’ ….

Yet…they were able to bring you along in methodical/safe progression to the point of the ‘kill or be killed’ _ skill driven mindset, using excellent physical and mental dynamics.

Any ‘flaws’ were reduced to a minimum because the training was aimed at survival on the battlefield in the chaos of violent death.

So the drills were of a certain orientation. He certainly knew what he was doing…he had a legendary reputation.

[Van Canna]

The Uechi system is a great system that leads to a number of effective applications in violence theatres…

When we discuss prearranged kumites as opposed to Kata bunkai…I think we have different focuses of application. This is the crux of the argument

Both have specific concepts to teach which may or may not ‘crossover’ into one another when we establish applications from well informed violence and body dynamics.

I always performed prearranged kumites and still teach them in random variations that are very challenging and useful in aspects of reactionary response action in confrontations while in the grip of the chemical cocktail…

....particularly as it relates to what attacks we are likely to face as we move through life …and how such attacks will come, and from what distances…excluding ‘dueling distances’ which require a different approach.

[Van Canna]

But even so, you always keep wondering…as good as these KDrills variations are …should they really be the focus of real life violent defensive action…or should we separate them from the ‘other drills’ the Kata bunkai…Kata we study with a view to effective response action from the so called ‘mushin’ _

Separate them from activity for which they were originally designed for?

So what ‘Activity’ let’s see:

The intelligent practitioner must ask himself: to what end, the founders of such drills envisioned them to accomplish. NOT…MIND YOU…THE DRILLS ARE USELESS…BUT WHAT WAS THE THRUST BEHIND THEIR DEVELOPMENT?

I agree that such practice gets a student to learn to interact with the style, his own body and the body of an opponent…but so does bunkai application [the other prearranged drills]

Can you mix and match the practices of bunkai and KDrills to achieve a certain desirable ‘operant conditioning’ useful in both real street defense and sparring matches, which I feel are also essential in developing a certain confidence, conditioning and surety when standing your ground against a strong opponent who wants to ‘conquer’ you with slamming physical and mental force?

Yes and no, depending on how the drill mechanics are presented…here we all have our opinions…and all opinions should be respected …matters not what passions are triggered on the floor or on the forums.

So back to the point…what were the KDrills designed for? After all we had the very effective bunkai from our katas…that handle the dynamics and distance we will be up against in a real fight…not a ‘dueling’ encounter…which is the point we should also concern ourselves with in these discussions.

So ‘what are you getting at, Van’

OK….

[Van Canna]

Go here:

http://www.okinawankarateacademy.com/history.html

In checking this out you will realize it is none other than the formidable James Thompson of legendary Uechi skills he learned in Okinawa under the personal tutelage of Kanei Uechi sensei for many years.

Jim needs no introduction.

What you will read is something I have previously reported as well from other teachers in Okinawa.

The emphasis of Sanchin is the mental principles, but basic physical principles are taught too. The remaining seven kata's are sometimes called the fighting kata, because they show the self-defense aspects of Uechi-Ryu more clearly than Sanchin.

The purpose of bunkai is to teach the student the application of kata (Bunkai means application). There are three different kata that have formalized bunkai's, Kanshiwa, Seisan, and Sanseiru.

Ok…this takes care of the bunkai as I outlined above.
But what of the KDrills? Why is he not including the drills “to teach the student the application of kata” where self defense ought to trigger from?

[Van Canna]

Here is Master Thompson

Uechi Kanei added material taught in this art. He devised a set of preliminary and supplementary exercises to warm up the student and to teach him basic karate skills.

He also created five bridging katas, which serves as stepping stones between the three main kata taken from Pangai-noon.

He also devised several pre-arranged sparring drills designed to teach the skills needed for free style sparring.

Well, there you have it. Mr. Thompson is telling us that bunkai and kumite have a different focus…and this is what many people use at the base of their analysis, and dissent…which is a natural consequence of argument.

[Van Canna]

Why should people become enemies over such discussions are beyond many of us…here is a comment from an email I received from another extremely accomplished, powerful and perceptive teacher.

Same old story since Day One:

Creation of the Forums. Snarling at each other, marking territories, deletions, banning, killings of camaraderie and friendships, hate, blood pressure spikes.

People don't post for the same reason audience members don't fight at every
tournament they go to - most just want to watch the "champs" battle it out
for their entertainment, knowing full well that whatever they say themselves
will probably get the same treatment anyway, so why bother.


Forum-Ryu is a spectator sport now. I watch some of these folks decimate
each other on the forums; Like a
domestic violence situation, they fight tooth and nail - but God help the
guy who interferes with the family bloodshed.

Ouch

Well, shame on us all.

[jorvik]

Quote
"Forum-Ryu is a spectator sport now. I watch some of these folks decimate
each other on the forums; Like a
domestic violence situation, they fight tooth and nail - but God help the
guy who interferes with the family bloodshed. "


absolutely..been there done that ...some folks even take offence at my smileys ......better to sit around with a good Scotch ( as Van said ),,,,,and talk about the things we find positive.....footy..and even Karate....and it doesn't really accomplish anything in developing our skills in Real world violence.....I trained once with a Goju guy who never kicked, and another guy who never punched............... .....maybe you can train with folks who omit stuff they don't like