Now just imagine if some of then knew some karate:
http://www.backlash.com/book/domv.html
Or TaeBo?
Battering Women
Moderator: Available
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Battering Women
Cecil,
You've got me confused. Please help clairfy for me what is your point of discussion on this article?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Men are battered as often as women but since it is not really talked about it is a crucial issue for this particular forum?
Men should consider more self-defense tactics against women since they are likely to be victims of domestic violence at the hands of a woman?
Please help me out -- between the women as rapists thread and this highly biased article I'm very lost as to where you're trying to take the dialogue.
Thanks,
Dana
You've got me confused. Please help clairfy for me what is your point of discussion on this article?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Feminists are effecting legal change that will eventually result in men being slaves to the capricious ways of women?So what should we do? Ignore the problem? Pretend it isn't there until men are virtual slaves? Do we rebel now and stage the inevitable backlash immediately? Or do we demand equal rights and responsibilities for all regardless of gender? Or should we begin by exposing the pop feminists cover-up of male-victimization? It's up to you.
Men are battered as often as women but since it is not really talked about it is a crucial issue for this particular forum?
Men should consider more self-defense tactics against women since they are likely to be victims of domestic violence at the hands of a woman?
Please help me out -- between the women as rapists thread and this highly biased article I'm very lost as to where you're trying to take the dialogue.
Thanks,
Dana
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Allen M.
Battering Women
Reads like you are frustrated by the feminists' movement, feel men are being severely oppressed by women, and want to express your opinions concerning the wrongs set against men by women? Try
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/
for much more of the same, Cecil.
I'm as confused as Dana, and am having a hard time relating that article to martial arts, and in particular martial arts on a woman's martial arts forum. I only scanned the article, seen it all before, and recognized that each and every word in red was a red flag that turns some faces red with embarrasment and others red with anger.
I don't know if such types of articles are appropriate in this forum, and I'd appreciate guidance in these matters from Dana.
My main concern, and I've been meaning to bring it up for a week or more, is directed to Dana. What happened to the new logo? I loved it!!! I like this original one too, and and consider it Lori's forum "trademark."
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/
for much more of the same, Cecil.
I'm as confused as Dana, and am having a hard time relating that article to martial arts, and in particular martial arts on a woman's martial arts forum. I only scanned the article, seen it all before, and recognized that each and every word in red was a red flag that turns some faces red with embarrasment and others red with anger.
I don't know if such types of articles are appropriate in this forum, and I'd appreciate guidance in these matters from Dana.
My main concern, and I've been meaning to bring it up for a week or more, is directed to Dana. What happened to the new logo? I loved it!!! I like this original one too, and and consider it Lori's forum "trademark."
------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera
Battering Women
<blockquote>Now just imagine if some of then knew some karate...</blockquote>
As Allen and Dana have already expressed, the relevance of violence committed by women and the conjecture of how much (worse?) it would be if they "knew some karate" does not appear to be a topic of relevance for a forum that has been primarily focused on exploring some of the challenges and benefits that the female "minority" may encounter in martial arts study.
There have been numerous excellent articles here by contributors of different gender, rank and style that explore issues pertaining to martial arts and women. Everything from the difference giving (and receiving!) a sanchin check, to which styles seem more suited to women, and many others have centralized around these issues.
I fail to see how postulating imagined abusive karate women do much toward learning about any of the core issues.
I'm not discounting that some scum may use "karate knowledge" to perpetuate violence, yet this has no bearing on gender.
And my counter point to your introduction of the article is this: imagine if some of these women truly did study the martial arts - including aspects of art, honor, defense, respect etc. - how many of those women would have chosen a different path other than violence?
Do we not teach children in karate classes that this art is about defense not offense? Why would it be different for women? A teaching style that does not include a focus on "defense" is not one I'm that familiar with on these pages.
From many of your insightful and well-written posts over the years on this forum I haven't gotten the impression that you believe martial arts study is strictly for improving skills to commit abusive acts. A few of your recent topics suggest this is a question in your mind perhaps better suited to a forum that discusses martial arts abuses, or politics, or anything goes. If abuse is someone's motive for karate study, this is not the forum for them, and neither do we need to waste time reading them. Lord knows there is enough junk out on the web found at the click of the button.
The whole reason this forum was begun when I was asked to moderate a few years back, was to discuss these issues in the interest of education and discussion leading to learning in a medium that might be easier than the dojo environment. Male and female alike have garnered interesting insights that have enhanced study - let's keep it that way.
Lori
As Allen and Dana have already expressed, the relevance of violence committed by women and the conjecture of how much (worse?) it would be if they "knew some karate" does not appear to be a topic of relevance for a forum that has been primarily focused on exploring some of the challenges and benefits that the female "minority" may encounter in martial arts study.
There have been numerous excellent articles here by contributors of different gender, rank and style that explore issues pertaining to martial arts and women. Everything from the difference giving (and receiving!) a sanchin check, to which styles seem more suited to women, and many others have centralized around these issues.
I fail to see how postulating imagined abusive karate women do much toward learning about any of the core issues.
I'm not discounting that some scum may use "karate knowledge" to perpetuate violence, yet this has no bearing on gender.
And my counter point to your introduction of the article is this: imagine if some of these women truly did study the martial arts - including aspects of art, honor, defense, respect etc. - how many of those women would have chosen a different path other than violence?
Do we not teach children in karate classes that this art is about defense not offense? Why would it be different for women? A teaching style that does not include a focus on "defense" is not one I'm that familiar with on these pages.
From many of your insightful and well-written posts over the years on this forum I haven't gotten the impression that you believe martial arts study is strictly for improving skills to commit abusive acts. A few of your recent topics suggest this is a question in your mind perhaps better suited to a forum that discusses martial arts abuses, or politics, or anything goes. If abuse is someone's motive for karate study, this is not the forum for them, and neither do we need to waste time reading them. Lord knows there is enough junk out on the web found at the click of the button.
The whole reason this forum was begun when I was asked to moderate a few years back, was to discuss these issues in the interest of education and discussion leading to learning in a medium that might be easier than the dojo environment. Male and female alike have garnered interesting insights that have enhanced study - let's keep it that way.
Lori
Battering Women
Dana-Sensei,
Both personally and professionally, I believe that I can attest to the fact that the abuse of men issue is far more often one of psychological abuse than physical.
Being such, it would be outside the scope of this forum and possibly more appropriate for the Verbal Self Defense forum.
Your point about the honor and proper behavior training aspect of the MA in reference to the article also goes right to the heart of the matter. How many of these alleged abusers would have behaved differently had their skill set included MA training?
How many would have walked away from the abusive situation? How many would have curbed their actions? How many would have had a safe and positive outlet for their pent-up aggression?
While it is always fun to conjecture, the probability is that we will never know. And that such issues are better left to a different forum, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Both personally and professionally, I believe that I can attest to the fact that the abuse of men issue is far more often one of psychological abuse than physical.
Being such, it would be outside the scope of this forum and possibly more appropriate for the Verbal Self Defense forum.
Your point about the honor and proper behavior training aspect of the MA in reference to the article also goes right to the heart of the matter. How many of these alleged abusers would have behaved differently had their skill set included MA training?
How many would have walked away from the abusive situation? How many would have curbed their actions? How many would have had a safe and positive outlet for their pent-up aggression?
While it is always fun to conjecture, the probability is that we will never know. And that such issues are better left to a different forum, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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Dana Sheets
- Posts: 2715
- Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 am
Battering Women
Thanks Lee - and please note that it was Lori who made those well written comments.
I think that unless Cecil is able to redirect the discussion to suit the general scope of this forum, then the thread will be locked.
I understand that often we open and discuss topics that don't line up with a certain forum - but in this case this particular thread is not a good match for this particular forum.
Dana
I think that unless Cecil is able to redirect the discussion to suit the general scope of this forum, then the thread will be locked.
I understand that often we open and discuss topics that don't line up with a certain forum - but in this case this particular thread is not a good match for this particular forum.
Dana
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Ted Dinwiddie
- Posts: 537
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Charlottesville,VA,USA
Battering Women
Perhaps the post is an attempt to reach out, across the gender gap, and seek advice or solace. Maybe it is an attempt to engage in an intelligent discussion with women and pro-woman (opposite of mysogynistic) men about issues which do not get discussed in an agenda-free environment very often (ever?). Many who participate on these forums feel they are among friends.
The subject may not be germane to this forum in actuality, but the attempt to make it so in the initial post is telling.
Dana and Lori, you are the moderators, it's your show. I just wanted to say that.
thanks.
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ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
The subject may not be germane to this forum in actuality, but the attempt to make it so in the initial post is telling.
Dana and Lori, you are the moderators, it's your show. I just wanted to say that.
thanks.
------------------
ted
"I learn by going where I have to go." - Theodore Roethke
Battering Women
Some observations about the world view of the article's author:
"When I was an adolescent, being "afraid of girls" was considered a personal problem, not something we could blame on the opposite sex."
And now it is... but were women (girls) really to blame for this guy being afraid of them? People are afraid of potential mates because they can reject them, and because its awkward talking to a group that its outside ones experience. Males and females tend to stick to themselves at that age. Their communication is poor. But this seems like a problem BETWEEN the genders not one that can be blamed on one gender. If the author felt this more keenly than an average girl, was this because society said he should be the asking gender and therefore more at risk for rejection. There's something damaging about NOT being the asking gender too, believing that if you like a guy you have to wait and hope.
"But women commit a lot of emotional violence."
What, don't men? When I was younger and fought with my brother I used mind games, he used force, because he was older and bigger. If women because they can't sock a mate around like men use somewhat more emotional manipulation, that doesn't mean their emotional abusing is all that different than mens to me. This sounds more like a man wounded in love than an unbiased assessment of emotional issues in opposite sex relationships.
"Every woman who waits for a man she wants to date to come to her and initiate the relationship is committing an act of emotional violence and exercising sexual dominance over men."
Wha? OR: is shy, afraid possibly of rejection, culturally conditioned about initiating; believes he isn't interested or is taken... What's with the paranoia? Where's the evidence of malice?
"Every woman who accuses a man of sexual harassment for asking her out for a date is guilty of emotional assault."
Even if the offer is made in a male superior's office who is discussing her promotion? Think!
"Every woman who laughs at a joke about kicking a man's testicles is emotionally brutalizing men."
Why women more than men who laugh at them, unless the author is just more vulnerable to them? (that's not nesc. women's fault is it?) Men laugh at them, men make them. Who makes those shot in the groin TV and movie moments? A cadre of feminazis or predominantly male producers? Don't men laugh at women's issues when they're funny?
"Motivated by the desire to love and be lovable, men repeatedly reach out, only to have their hands and faces slapped. After so much abuse, it can finally get to the point where many men get stuck in the act of initiating."
Here we find that women cause womanizing? THEY cause men to seek sexual conquests and brag about them to friends? Hmmm. Actually a typical psychologic reaction to adverse stimuli is avoidance and not seeking. Make half the room electrically charge, see dog get shocked--see dog not walk there anymore. And what of women who sleep around? Would he sympathize with them or blame them for "using" men sexually? Do we usually think of "whores" as lonely and if not why womanizers?
These and other comments come across as a person who's been repeatedly hurt in relationships and who now harbors a lot of fear and mistrust for the opposite gender. I'm not sure those experiences give him etensive insight into the psychology of women, however.
I think the way to spin this thread so that it is relevant to the women's forum is:
1) how do we recognize and talk about these negative feelings in men, and how can we fix the problem
2) how does it affect women to be in a dojo where by size issues and habituation to aggression and physical activities they're often at a disadvantage and outnumbered and sometimes facing much more aggressive male partners--who additionally face the charge that they're there to abuse men?
"When I was an adolescent, being "afraid of girls" was considered a personal problem, not something we could blame on the opposite sex."
And now it is... but were women (girls) really to blame for this guy being afraid of them? People are afraid of potential mates because they can reject them, and because its awkward talking to a group that its outside ones experience. Males and females tend to stick to themselves at that age. Their communication is poor. But this seems like a problem BETWEEN the genders not one that can be blamed on one gender. If the author felt this more keenly than an average girl, was this because society said he should be the asking gender and therefore more at risk for rejection. There's something damaging about NOT being the asking gender too, believing that if you like a guy you have to wait and hope.
"But women commit a lot of emotional violence."
What, don't men? When I was younger and fought with my brother I used mind games, he used force, because he was older and bigger. If women because they can't sock a mate around like men use somewhat more emotional manipulation, that doesn't mean their emotional abusing is all that different than mens to me. This sounds more like a man wounded in love than an unbiased assessment of emotional issues in opposite sex relationships.
"Every woman who waits for a man she wants to date to come to her and initiate the relationship is committing an act of emotional violence and exercising sexual dominance over men."
Wha? OR: is shy, afraid possibly of rejection, culturally conditioned about initiating; believes he isn't interested or is taken... What's with the paranoia? Where's the evidence of malice?
"Every woman who accuses a man of sexual harassment for asking her out for a date is guilty of emotional assault."
Even if the offer is made in a male superior's office who is discussing her promotion? Think!
"Every woman who laughs at a joke about kicking a man's testicles is emotionally brutalizing men."
Why women more than men who laugh at them, unless the author is just more vulnerable to them? (that's not nesc. women's fault is it?) Men laugh at them, men make them. Who makes those shot in the groin TV and movie moments? A cadre of feminazis or predominantly male producers? Don't men laugh at women's issues when they're funny?
"Motivated by the desire to love and be lovable, men repeatedly reach out, only to have their hands and faces slapped. After so much abuse, it can finally get to the point where many men get stuck in the act of initiating."
Here we find that women cause womanizing? THEY cause men to seek sexual conquests and brag about them to friends? Hmmm. Actually a typical psychologic reaction to adverse stimuli is avoidance and not seeking. Make half the room electrically charge, see dog get shocked--see dog not walk there anymore. And what of women who sleep around? Would he sympathize with them or blame them for "using" men sexually? Do we usually think of "whores" as lonely and if not why womanizers?
These and other comments come across as a person who's been repeatedly hurt in relationships and who now harbors a lot of fear and mistrust for the opposite gender. I'm not sure those experiences give him etensive insight into the psychology of women, however.
I think the way to spin this thread so that it is relevant to the women's forum is:
1) how do we recognize and talk about these negative feelings in men, and how can we fix the problem
2) how does it affect women to be in a dojo where by size issues and habituation to aggression and physical activities they're often at a disadvantage and outnumbered and sometimes facing much more aggressive male partners--who additionally face the charge that they're there to abuse men?
