Uechi-ryu is not a system for women's self defense.

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:24 pm

Dana wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

For me to train for what will probably happen to me I need to spend a good deal of time training on a couch, in a bed, or in my own house since that's where I'm most likely to be attacked. And I should spend that time preparing to fight like hell against people I know, love, and have prior relationships with since they are the ones most likely to hurt me.

(I jumped down to write this before reading all the replies - I don't know how I missed this topic so loong but it is very meaningful to me.)

Some ten years ago I decided exactly the same for myself. As this was about the same time that I started to teach for myself, my wife and I decided not to call an of our classes "self defense" - classical Shorin-ji karate was no more useful to self defense than field hockey.

But, being the kind of guy I a, I started a lengthy research on thetopic that followed the following route, more or less:

Marc Animal MacYoung
Peyton Quinn
Don Pentecost
Styers, Cassidy and Sanchez, (military rather than MA knife work)
Fairbairn, Applegate and Sykes (FAS) and their type of close quarter combat (cqc) sometimes colled WWII hand to hand (h2h)

h2h has stripped down the 'art' to a dirty dozen techniues and has brought into focus the fighting mind set rather than the sparring (dojo) mind set. After joining a h2h club and getting some immersion in its attitudes, I felt ready to offer a realistic women's self defense course for fighting off male strangers.

The most interest thing was that I found every thing that is in cqc in my Shorin-ji except the fighting attitude and the aggressive training needed for self defense. The lack is not in the classical techniques but in what and how it is taught...IF strict self defense is what you want. Classical karate is just too complicated and unwieldly and too 'nice' for self defense.

To further my research for my students and myself, I took two of my students down to Colorado and had them take the BulletMan training and work thru the FAST methodology with Bill Kipp, a move following Peyton Quinn again. As you have found for yourself, this adds a new dimension to self defense that is unattainable in an ordinary ma class. We use a lot of scenario based sd training even in classical class, now.

BUT last week I was asked to develope some date rape scenarios for the girls.

Arghh! The problems of dealing with the dilema in your quote are found in us as people, not with the system you train.

How do I set up a date scene that goes wrong without things getting 'too close'? We all know that lists of Do's and Dont's go out the window when the emotions rise. Realistic practice allows for more predictable success in the face reality but 'realistic' in this case discomforts me...should it be a ladies only night?

I guess I'm looking for scenarios and a way of presenting the bad guy so as to get the most reaction without actually crossing into physical assault stuff ourself - wow, the stranger woof is so much easier!!

Since you are also wrestling with these ideas, I hoped maybe you had found a direction here...?

Ted

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The Fighting Old Man

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:35 pm

BTW, Raffi, Susan qualifies as both Mid Atlantic "family" and martial superstar!

JohnC · Post by **JohnC** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:33 pm

Dana:

How so? Uechi is to be 1/2 hard and 1/2 soft. Power is to be generated through sanchin and not brute muscle force alone.

Or do you mean in the sense that most stand-up ma styles do not typically emphasize the grappling, tackling, clinching strategies, counters and escapes? How to use your knuckles for pain when trapped underneath your heavier attacker, pressure points, eye gouges, how to manage yourself when your date is suddenly aggressive,etc.

In this sense you are correct, in that most attacks probably aren't going to occur in a sparring scenario with strikes, blocks and counter strikes. And most encounters may not be helped by a female who has focused solely on Uechi training.

I think Uechi becomes a "base" or foundation of a beginning pathway that can lead to more of the self defense training beyond Uechi alone. It can teach self discipline, fighting spirit, which is no small factor and at least getting accustomed to being touched, struck, etc.

I think using Uechi as the main base with a la carte workshops on the unique scenarios faced by women and the realistic self defense training found on these forum threads is a fair representation of teaching self defense.

JohnC

Sochin · Post by **Sochin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 11:25 pm

Further thoughts I've had;

You can teach a woman to leave her man and run to safety but she will never do it.

You can teach a woman how to rip an eyeball out of someone's face but she will never do it...

unless, in the defense of someone she loves. Not, usually, in defense of her self.

If a techinique is one that she will never use it is just as useless as one she can't use effectively.

Aggressive enough to be effective but compassionate enough to be used...

Hmmmm. Any takers?

TT

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The Fighting Old Man

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 4:20 am

Let my try to summarize what I think I'm hearing and group the debates into 4 major categories.
1. Sanchin Postion
2. What traditional training can give you and what it can't
3. Half-soft
4. Footwork

<hr>
1. Sanchin Postion

Sanchin position is hard for women.
Sanchin position is best/natural for women.

Hmmm - this seems to go back to the difficulty of defining "one fist's distance from the chest". Personally I've had more success with this position when I teach "one fist distance from the ribcage - or as close as you can get to that." And holding onto the idea that since a woman's upper body doesn't look just like a man's, then her sanchin position may not look just like a man's either.
<hr>
2. What traditional training can give you and what it can't

Uechi is great for teaching fighting spirit (as are most traditional martial arts.) But a woman and actually everyone needs to supplement traditional training if they're going to use what they've learned in the dojo on the street. These supplements include:
a)verbal self defense training
b)adrenal stress training
c)cqc weapons training
d)an acceptace that no matter how much you train you'll never be assured that you will be prepared for what might happen to you
e) an understanding that women may need a little more encouragement than men to use really brutal techniques against an attacker - and an understanding of how to bring her to that place
<hr>
3. Half-soft

Uechi-ryu does not have to be a power-meets-power style. That's that half-soft part we keep talking about without really being able to define what "soft" means. Does it mean "internal"? (OK - well that doesn't help any)
Does it mean "deflect" or "circular"
I'm going to start a thread on this.
<hr>
4. Footwork

Footwork is very important for women to learn - but perhaps up to this point footwork in general hasn't been emphasized or taught well by most Uechi-stylists. (Seems like we could use (beg/borrow/steal) some footwork drills to add to our basics.
This seems to be the most important point - since the only way you not meet power with power is by using good footwrk and center body mass manuvering.

Hojo-undo is a great upper body and kicking basics drill but is terrible for learning fluid movement with a partner. So where is the basic series for moving with/around/against a partner?
So for this I'll start another thread.

<hr>
Most of you know how much I love Uechi and many of you also know that I think the way Uechi is taught most of the time is a real barrier for most women. The ideas so far are excellent - but I'm still not convinced...

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited September 01, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I think the way Uechi is taught most of the time is a real barrier for most women.

I'm with you 50% of the way here, Dana. But frankly I think the things you see as a barrier for women are a barrier for the male seeking an elevated level of martial ability.

In my mind, there is far too much emphasis on the bash and smash in the style. Don't get me wrong; conditioning is important. Conditioning is one of the things that sets us apart from most martial styles, and gets us into the level of toughness that you see in an accomplished boxer. But do boxers stand still and take a hit? The good ones don't. The soft skills of movement and deflection are better applied in practice in boxing than they are described by most Uechi instructors. Many have much to learn.

There is an aspect to this conditioning stuff that is literally addicting. A good pounding session in an experienced athlete bring out the endorphins. We feel a buzz, and we ALMOST feel invulnerable. The problem is that folks think they are supposed to take a hit when they fight. Big problem! Conditioning is there to help us stay in the fight when we make stupid mistakes. The mark of an excellent boxer is a "pretty" face. It means nobody could hit you. Why not aspire to that in Uechi ryu?

Your concerns are concerns identified from a woman's perspective, Dana. But they are universal ones. We do best when we give more than lip service to both sides of the yin and the yang.

- Bill

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:05 pm

Comments interspersed, with my traditional ** marker to show when I'm speaking.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dana Sheets:
Uechi-ryu is not a system for women's self defense. Uechi-ryu is a system for men fighting men.

Van's got lots of folks talking about Tony Blauer's SPEAR system. And so Gary Koury or Van quoted Tony Blauer as saying that we should train for what will probably happen.

If that's the case then Uechi is pretty much a waste of time for me from a self-defense point of view.

For me to train for what will probably happen to me I need to spend a good deal of time training on a couch, in a bed, or in my own house since that's where I'm most likely to be attacked. And I should spend that time preparing to fight like hell against people I know, love, and have prior relationships with since they are the ones most likely to hurt me.

** Dana-Sensei, with all respect, why not incorporate these scenarios INTO your training and ADAPT Uechi techniques to them? It would seem to me that this would make sense. By adapting your style to the most likely situations, are you not doing what those who developed the style were intending - protecting yourself? Just a thought...

And that is the small amount of time I should dedicate to physical training since the most likely source of abuse for me as a woman will be verbal or emotional abuse.

** Which is why we have the VSD board. And I FIRMLY believe that VSD should be an INTEGRAL part of ANY MA.

Also I'm likely to be attacked with a knife if I am attacked by a stranger and Raffi has made it pretty clear that the standard crane posture of Uechi is a big no-no for a knife encounter.

** So go to one of the other postures. One thing I learned from reading materials in Oyama's Advanced Karate was the idea that each stance has its own strengths and weaknesses. His writing on stance theory is well worth looking into. As is the material from Shorinji Kenpo. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this, but stance theory seems to be somewhat under-taught in many Ryu that I have been exposed to.

And - having done adrenal stress training and knowing that sparring class will never be that...what's left?

** Conditioning, reaction drills, training the "flinch" to protect you, awareness training... shall I continue?

Can I honestly say to a woman who walks into the karate school next week that we train a system of self-defense?

** Actually, yes, you can. Remember, folks, if something you learned in a class is useful on the street, then it's self defense.

Perhaps I should just tell her we train a system of movements that were once good for fighting between men but are now a great way to make friends and get in shape. (Hmmm - that kinda sounds like tai chi for health doesn't it?)

Anybody disagree?
Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited August 29, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

** Well, again, with respect, no style is perfect and all styles are adapted by the practitioner to some level.

As I have said, at least once or twice <grin>, an art is a living, growing thing, not a batch of strictures, restrictions and limitations.

Art should grow, expand, encompass and absorb that which increases its expressive components, whether those components are paints and canvas or punches and kicks.

There's a line from a song by Leslie Fish that sums up my attitude on this:

"...who will not perish, must grow."

Even though I "closed my hands" years ago, I still strive to learn, even if only by reading these forums and having conversations with educated and intelligent people such as yourself and the other members of this forum.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

krymrgn · Post by **krymrgn** » Sat Sep 07, 2002 5:02 am

Dana,

I am not a "Sensei", so I admire you that. But I am a women, practicing Uechi Ryuy for self defense, and I find it works magicaly. I find that postition of Sanchin to be quite natural although, yes awkard only because I'm not "used" to a feeling which is that natural. I find the techniques genius, you never truly have you back to someone, while being completely helpless. This is also why I find it to be a most "complete" style. Though I do not disagree with seeing/attanding other seminars etc and aquiring some other useful tools in defending myself. I believe that within Sanchin are all the answers, some-where, some are plain and frank- others are hidden and so subtle as to appear nonexsistant. I haven't even reached black belt yet, but that is my own fault.

I haven't completely concured my own fear yet.

But I don't feel I will ever "loose" or get hurt, for lack of knowledge provided in the Uechi-style. only in my ability to perform it correctly.

Just a .02 worth...

(I've seen so many people say that with the numbers like that that I had to use it LOL)

Respectful Blessings;
Kerry
krymrgn@hotmail.com
(I introduced my self in the roundtable forum if you are curious as to which rock I crawled out from under. LOL)

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 5:16 am

Dana:
I read your original post once more just to make sure I was on track with the topic.
If you visit the "Testimonials" thread I started on Van Canna's forum, you will see that my attempt to garner some evidence that Uechi ryu is in fact a "self defense" system at all,for either gender, failed miserably.
Most people's experiences seem to lack any successful self defense credence at all, so I'm wondering too.
I have four years invested in this: should I bail out before I invest another four and look for another "style"?
I don't think so.
Even given the respondees' lack of enthusiasm for Uechi Ryu's rating as a self defense system, I still feel that I am in a better position to survive a violent encounter now than four years ago.
I am essentially putting my faith in my teacher's ability to "reverse-engineer" Uechi Ryu back into its deadly origins.
I know. It's a big leap.
I have little idea how this style is taught en masse, but I think the onus is on ME to make it work and my greatest fear is that I will let the style down, not vice versa.
I go to every class in humility and leave every one convinced I should never return.
But I make myself go back every week because if I don't, I may drop out forever.
You asked a terrific question and pardon the soul-searching answer.
I think a lot of people might have this on their minds. NM

krymrgn · Post by **krymrgn** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 7:04 am

2green;

That is the most impressive post I've seen yet- or close to. Inspiring- I hope many see it-
Krymrgn

david · Post by **david** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 10:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you visit the "Testimonials" thread I started on Van Canna's forum, you will see that my attempt to garner some evidence that Uechi ryu is in fact a "self defense" system at all,for either gender, failed miserably.
Most people's experiences seem to lack any successful self defense credence at all, so I'm wondering too.
I have four years invested in this: should I bail out before I invest another four and look for another "style"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys/gals, too much agonizing...

Frankly, you will never know if the "style" is effective or not until the moment the poop hits the fan. And, if and when you survive that, you will wonder whether you can survive the next one and the next one after that. In your doubts you begin to look at other styles, for the magic bullet... You may even take another style. But, Damn it! Why does that voice of doubt keep on popping up?

That voice is from you. Has nothing to do with the style. That voice wants you to stay out of trouble. That voice knows you can "buy it" on the next one -- a ticket to Hell. Even the so-call tough guys, most have that voice in them working. In answer to that voice, they try to stack the odds in their favor, however, they choose to do it. But that voice is there in them too.

Respect the voice. Then go back to your training, whatever you choose. Just keep challenging yourself. This is the stuff of perservance. This is the training for an attitude of never quit in face of adversity, the "forge" as it were...

Questioning is okay. Overdo it... then it becomes a whine... I too m/f for this style.... Too big/small... Too fast/slow... Too weak/strong... It becomes martial masturbation and enervation. Challenge yourself. Find what works for you. Make it work you. More important, challenge your spirit. The latter is what makes a style, or is that the individual, able to respond or not in that critical moment.

david

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:30 pm

Something from James Lafond, a trained fighter living in one of America’s toughest cities and survivor of many armed and unharmed fights and psychological warfare: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Delusion is the most common state of mind among practicing martial artists. The need to believe in a style is the primary indication of “weak will” among “fighters”.
Like it or not, most of your training options, will put you side by side with these wimps. This childish belief in invincible styles is often fostered by egotistical teachers, who in some cases feel obligated to let the delusion stand, as they don’t believe in their students’ ability to defend themselves against street violence, no matter how skilled they become.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CANDANeh · Post by **CANDANeh** » Wed Sep 11, 2002 11:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The need to believe in a style is the primary indication of “weak will” among
“fighters”.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now that is an interesting statement. Would the same hold true in the "need" for a belief in anything

? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Delusion is the most common state of mind among practicing martial artists.

When we become a member of a style whether it be Uechi, Gojo, Wing Chun etc..we expect to reap fighting ability and under controlled conditions we do. To understand that the style can not provide your abilty to fight on the street (either you already can or can not) will force you to find out why and train yourself accordingly ,accept it as is or allow the "need" for the delusion and mayby pass it on as an instructor.