Medical question:
I'm considering suppliments as part of my shoulder rehab.I then discover I know little about the topic.
Glucocamine, Glucosamine Sulfate, Stable L Glutamine, Do they aid in healing joint damage/reduce imflamation?
What's the diffence in these products?
Laird
is there a doctor in the house?
Moderator: Available
is there a doctor in the house?
NOT my area of specialty or interest, and I know Bill knows a lot more about them, but here are some thoughts:
Haven't heard of the glutamine for joints but the glucosamine / chondoitin supplements are bascially cartilage compounds, long molecules of protein and sugar that form the glassy coverings on the ends of joints that allow them to move freely. When they get roughened up it hurts to move the joint and we call it "osteoarthritis" but more appropriately degenerative joint disease. I would have intuitively thought we would digest these compounds making them useless or believed that access to them is not the limiting factor in joint repair, so that they wouldn't work. But people swear by them. I don't know what the data is.
The shoulder is not a weight bearing joint like the knee or involved in millions of little manipulations like the fingers so it is not as affected by DJD as these joints. The shoulder has problems that result from a need for free range of motion. We have it, and our shoulders do things that would snap a dog or cat shoulder in pieces. The problem is joint stability. Ever heard of a cat with a dislocated shoulder? More freedom, more instability. The only place the shoulder girdle is attached via joints to the axial skeleton is by the collar bone at the sternum. A complicated group of muscles designed to hold the shoulder in it's relatively shallow "cup" is subject to tears, and the ligaments surrounding the joint are as well.
If you have a shoulder instability or rotator cuff problem these cartilage supplements will not help, and these are the primary issues with the shoulder.
If you have DJD, roughened cartilage in the joint itself, they may, and Bill I'm sure can say a lot more than I about this. What we really may need is an orthopedist.
Haven't heard of the glutamine for joints but the glucosamine / chondoitin supplements are bascially cartilage compounds, long molecules of protein and sugar that form the glassy coverings on the ends of joints that allow them to move freely. When they get roughened up it hurts to move the joint and we call it "osteoarthritis" but more appropriately degenerative joint disease. I would have intuitively thought we would digest these compounds making them useless or believed that access to them is not the limiting factor in joint repair, so that they wouldn't work. But people swear by them. I don't know what the data is.
The shoulder is not a weight bearing joint like the knee or involved in millions of little manipulations like the fingers so it is not as affected by DJD as these joints. The shoulder has problems that result from a need for free range of motion. We have it, and our shoulders do things that would snap a dog or cat shoulder in pieces. The problem is joint stability. Ever heard of a cat with a dislocated shoulder? More freedom, more instability. The only place the shoulder girdle is attached via joints to the axial skeleton is by the collar bone at the sternum. A complicated group of muscles designed to hold the shoulder in it's relatively shallow "cup" is subject to tears, and the ligaments surrounding the joint are as well.
If you have a shoulder instability or rotator cuff problem these cartilage supplements will not help, and these are the primary issues with the shoulder.
If you have DJD, roughened cartilage in the joint itself, they may, and Bill I'm sure can say a lot more than I about this. What we really may need is an orthopedist.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
is there a doctor in the house?
Folks
There's now a ton of literature out there about glucosamine and chondroitin. I included the abstracts of two review articles for Ian here. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>J Am Pharm Assoc (Wash) 2002 Jan-Feb;42(1):74-82 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Meeting the therapeutic challenge of the patient with osteoarthritis.
Todd C.
Rocky Mountain Poison Control and Drug Consultation Center, Denver, Colo, USA. scarab@rmi.net
OBJECTIVE: To discuss the diagnosis of osteoarthritis and the efficacy of available pharmacologic and nonpharmacologic treatment options. DATA SOURCES: Published reports on the diagnosis and treatment of osteoarthritis were identified through a MEDLINE search of English-language journal articles using a focused title search for the keywords acetaminophen, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory, COX-2 nonsteroidal, opioids, capsaicin, tramadol, glucosamine, hyaluronic acid, and osteoarthritis and by reviewing the bibliographies of selected reviews. The American College of Rheumatology (ACR) guidelines, as updated in September 2000, for the treatment of osteoarthritis of the hip and knee were analyzed with appropriate references to clinical and scientific studies, review articles, and other published guidelines. DATA SYNTHESIS: Each patient's medical history and level of pain should decide the most appropriate treatment. Nonpharmacologic therapies should always be included in the treatment regimen. If further pain management is required, the most appropriate pharmacologic treatments are acetaminophen or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for mild-to-moderate pain, tramadol or opioid combinations for moderate-to-moderately severe pain, and opioids for severe pain. Adjunctive treatments, intraarticular injections, and surgery are also viable options for some patients. CONCLUSION: If used properly, the ACR guidelines for the treatment of osteoarthritis are important tools in the care of the patient with this disease.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Arzneimittelforschung 2001 Sep;51(9):699-725 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of glucosamine sulfate. A review.
Setnikar I, Rovati LC.
Scientific Department, Rotta Research Laboratorium, Monza, Italy. ivo.setnikar@rotta.com
This article reviews the literature related to the absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion (ADME) of glucosamine (Gl) in man and in animals after administration of crystalline glucosamine sulfate (CGS). Intravenous administration of CGS In man, after single bolus intravenous (i.v.) injection of 1005 mg CGS (628 mg Gl), the parent Gl disappears from plasma with an apparent half life of 1.11 h. Investigations with uniformly 14C labeled Gl (14C-Gl) administered with 502 mg CGS indicate that the disappearance of Gl is due to an incorporation into the plasma globulins that occurs with a lag time of 0.45 h and a rate of 0.26 h-1. The radioactivity reaches a peak after 10 h and is eliminated with a t1/2 of 95 h. After single i.v. doses of 502 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, the urinary excretion in 120 h accounted for 29% of the administered dose. Consistent results are obtained in rat and dogs, in which radioactivity rapidly appears in liver, kidneys and other tissues, including the articular cartilage. In man, after i.v. bolus injection of 1005 mg CGS, the urinary excretion in 24 h of Gl determined with ion exchange chromatography was 38% of the administered dose, mostly in the first 8 h after administration. Similar results were obtained tracing CGS with 14C-Gl. Consistent results of urinary excretion were obtained in rats and dogs tracing CGS with 14C-Gl. The excretion of radioactivity in feces was small. The elimination of radioactivity with the expired air as 14CO2 measured in rats amounted to 49% of the administered dose in the 144 h following the administration, 16% of which occurred in the first 6 h. Intramuscular administration of CGS In man, a single intramuscular injection of 502 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, gave results similar to those after i.v. administration. Oral administration of CGS In man, after a single dose of 7.5 g CGS, Gl in plasma was below the limit of quantitation (3 micrograms/ml) of the ion exchange chromatography method. After a single dose of 314 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, radioactivity appeared incorporated in plasma globulins with a lag time of 1.5 h and increasing with a rate of 0.24 h-1. The peak was reached at the 9th h after administration. The radioactivity then was eliminated with a t1/2 of 58 h. The absolute oral bioavailability evaluated on the AUCs of the globulin-incorporated radioactivity was 44%. The fecal excretion in 120 h was 11.3% of the administered dose showing that at least 88.7% of the administered dose was absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract. The difference of 45% is probably due to a hepatic first-pass effect. Investigated in the rat with doses from 126 to 3768 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, a linear relationship was found with the AUCs as well as between doses and the Cmax of radioactivity in total and in deproteinized plasma. The urinary elimination in man of the parent Gl in 24 h determined with ion exchange chromatography after a single dose of 7.5 g of CGS was 1.19% of the administered dose, occurring mostly in the first 8 h after administration. After administration of 1884 mg repeated for 7 days the daily urinary excretion of Gl increased from 1.60% of the daily dose during the first 24 h to 2.22% of the daily dose in the last 24 h. The steady state was reached after the second day. The urinary excretion at steady state during repeated administration allowed to conclude that daily 1884 CGS administered either t.i.d. in sugar coated tablets or once a day in oral solution were bioequivalent. The elimination of radioactivity with the expired as 14CO2 measured in rats was 82% of the administered dose in the 144 h following the administration, 61% of which occur in the first 6 h. Interaction of Gl with the ADME of glucose The ADME of glucose was investigated in the rat administering i.v. or orally 14C uniformly labeled glucose. The kinetic in plasma and the tissue distribution of glucose differed totally from those of Gl, pointing out that exogenous glucose provides the energy for biochemical processes, whereas exogenous Gl acts mainly as substrate for the biosynthesis of mucopolysaccharides and of biopolymers of the articulations and bones. There was no evidence of interaction by Gl orally administered with the ADME of glucose.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glucosamine is made naturally in the body by converting glucose and glutamine to glucosamine. This in turn is the monomer (building block) of the glycosaminoglycan complex that makes up our articular cartilage - the stuff Ian described above at the ends of our bones. It's also used to make tendons and ligaments.
As we get older, the enzyme that converts glucose and glutamine to glucosamine gets in short supply. Presumably - according to some research - we can up the levels of glucosamine by consuming it orally. Randomized controlled trials indeed show improvement in joint pain after 12 weeks of daily consumption that is about the equivalent of taking ibuprofen. When one stops taking both, the pain returns immediately with the ibuprofen therapy, whereas the positive effect of the glucosamine stays for weeks (suggesting anatomic changes).
The chondroitin is supposed to help regulate the building/tearing down of the cartilage and aid in the prouduction of functional synovial fluid (joint grease).
It works for some people with some joint problems. It's not that expensive (although you should buy a quality brand), and the only side effects I've ever heard of are GI related (gas). Long term tolerance is actually better for glucosamine than for ibuprofen.
- Bill
There's now a ton of literature out there about glucosamine and chondroitin. I included the abstracts of two review articles for Ian here. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>J Am Pharm Assoc (Wash) 2002 Jan-Feb;42(1):74-82 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Meeting the therapeutic challenge of the patient with osteoarthritis.
Todd C.
Rocky Mountain Poison Control and Drug Consultation Center, Denver, Colo, USA. scarab@rmi.net
OBJECTIVE: To discuss the diagnosis of osteoarthritis and the efficacy of available pharmacologic and nonpharmacologic treatment options. DATA SOURCES: Published reports on the diagnosis and treatment of osteoarthritis were identified through a MEDLINE search of English-language journal articles using a focused title search for the keywords acetaminophen, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory, COX-2 nonsteroidal, opioids, capsaicin, tramadol, glucosamine, hyaluronic acid, and osteoarthritis and by reviewing the bibliographies of selected reviews. The American College of Rheumatology (ACR) guidelines, as updated in September 2000, for the treatment of osteoarthritis of the hip and knee were analyzed with appropriate references to clinical and scientific studies, review articles, and other published guidelines. DATA SYNTHESIS: Each patient's medical history and level of pain should decide the most appropriate treatment. Nonpharmacologic therapies should always be included in the treatment regimen. If further pain management is required, the most appropriate pharmacologic treatments are acetaminophen or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs for mild-to-moderate pain, tramadol or opioid combinations for moderate-to-moderately severe pain, and opioids for severe pain. Adjunctive treatments, intraarticular injections, and surgery are also viable options for some patients. CONCLUSION: If used properly, the ACR guidelines for the treatment of osteoarthritis are important tools in the care of the patient with this disease.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Arzneimittelforschung 2001 Sep;51(9):699-725 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of glucosamine sulfate. A review.
Setnikar I, Rovati LC.
Scientific Department, Rotta Research Laboratorium, Monza, Italy. ivo.setnikar@rotta.com
This article reviews the literature related to the absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion (ADME) of glucosamine (Gl) in man and in animals after administration of crystalline glucosamine sulfate (CGS). Intravenous administration of CGS In man, after single bolus intravenous (i.v.) injection of 1005 mg CGS (628 mg Gl), the parent Gl disappears from plasma with an apparent half life of 1.11 h. Investigations with uniformly 14C labeled Gl (14C-Gl) administered with 502 mg CGS indicate that the disappearance of Gl is due to an incorporation into the plasma globulins that occurs with a lag time of 0.45 h and a rate of 0.26 h-1. The radioactivity reaches a peak after 10 h and is eliminated with a t1/2 of 95 h. After single i.v. doses of 502 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, the urinary excretion in 120 h accounted for 29% of the administered dose. Consistent results are obtained in rat and dogs, in which radioactivity rapidly appears in liver, kidneys and other tissues, including the articular cartilage. In man, after i.v. bolus injection of 1005 mg CGS, the urinary excretion in 24 h of Gl determined with ion exchange chromatography was 38% of the administered dose, mostly in the first 8 h after administration. Similar results were obtained tracing CGS with 14C-Gl. Consistent results of urinary excretion were obtained in rats and dogs tracing CGS with 14C-Gl. The excretion of radioactivity in feces was small. The elimination of radioactivity with the expired air as 14CO2 measured in rats amounted to 49% of the administered dose in the 144 h following the administration, 16% of which occurred in the first 6 h. Intramuscular administration of CGS In man, a single intramuscular injection of 502 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, gave results similar to those after i.v. administration. Oral administration of CGS In man, after a single dose of 7.5 g CGS, Gl in plasma was below the limit of quantitation (3 micrograms/ml) of the ion exchange chromatography method. After a single dose of 314 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, radioactivity appeared incorporated in plasma globulins with a lag time of 1.5 h and increasing with a rate of 0.24 h-1. The peak was reached at the 9th h after administration. The radioactivity then was eliminated with a t1/2 of 58 h. The absolute oral bioavailability evaluated on the AUCs of the globulin-incorporated radioactivity was 44%. The fecal excretion in 120 h was 11.3% of the administered dose showing that at least 88.7% of the administered dose was absorbed through the gastrointestinal tract. The difference of 45% is probably due to a hepatic first-pass effect. Investigated in the rat with doses from 126 to 3768 mg CGS traced with 14C-Gl, a linear relationship was found with the AUCs as well as between doses and the Cmax of radioactivity in total and in deproteinized plasma. The urinary elimination in man of the parent Gl in 24 h determined with ion exchange chromatography after a single dose of 7.5 g of CGS was 1.19% of the administered dose, occurring mostly in the first 8 h after administration. After administration of 1884 mg repeated for 7 days the daily urinary excretion of Gl increased from 1.60% of the daily dose during the first 24 h to 2.22% of the daily dose in the last 24 h. The steady state was reached after the second day. The urinary excretion at steady state during repeated administration allowed to conclude that daily 1884 CGS administered either t.i.d. in sugar coated tablets or once a day in oral solution were bioequivalent. The elimination of radioactivity with the expired as 14CO2 measured in rats was 82% of the administered dose in the 144 h following the administration, 61% of which occur in the first 6 h. Interaction of Gl with the ADME of glucose The ADME of glucose was investigated in the rat administering i.v. or orally 14C uniformly labeled glucose. The kinetic in plasma and the tissue distribution of glucose differed totally from those of Gl, pointing out that exogenous glucose provides the energy for biochemical processes, whereas exogenous Gl acts mainly as substrate for the biosynthesis of mucopolysaccharides and of biopolymers of the articulations and bones. There was no evidence of interaction by Gl orally administered with the ADME of glucose.
Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glucosamine is made naturally in the body by converting glucose and glutamine to glucosamine. This in turn is the monomer (building block) of the glycosaminoglycan complex that makes up our articular cartilage - the stuff Ian described above at the ends of our bones. It's also used to make tendons and ligaments.
As we get older, the enzyme that converts glucose and glutamine to glucosamine gets in short supply. Presumably - according to some research - we can up the levels of glucosamine by consuming it orally. Randomized controlled trials indeed show improvement in joint pain after 12 weeks of daily consumption that is about the equivalent of taking ibuprofen. When one stops taking both, the pain returns immediately with the ibuprofen therapy, whereas the positive effect of the glucosamine stays for weeks (suggesting anatomic changes).
The chondroitin is supposed to help regulate the building/tearing down of the cartilage and aid in the prouduction of functional synovial fluid (joint grease).
It works for some people with some joint problems. It's not that expensive (although you should buy a quality brand), and the only side effects I've ever heard of are GI related (gas). Long term tolerance is actually better for glucosamine than for ibuprofen.
- Bill
is there a doctor in the house?
See, I said Bill would come through! Thanks.
One other thing re: the initial question: these compounds are not anti inflammatory. DJD is not primarily an inflammatory problem, which is why the term DJD is preferred to osteoarthritis, which implies an inflammation. That's why the first choice for treatment is tylenol, which is analgesic but not antiinflammatory and also doesn't disrupt the other hormonal pathways that nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (ibuprofen, naproxen) disrupt. Thus, it doesn't cause the NSAID's classic side effects (in some) of kidney malfunction and gastric irritation including ulcers. Steroids (at least glucocorticoids, as opposed to anabolic/sex steroids) are also antiinflammatory but have too many side effects for systemic use for most arthritides. They can be used locally, injected into affected joints, but repeated use can be harmful and I've met some people who have said it worked for only 5 hrs, which only happened because a topical anesthetic is injected with the steroid.
A year and a half ago or so I also heard of an expensive injectable joint lubricant. Something only a specialist is likely to know about.
All of this may not be relevant if the shoulder problem is not cause by cartilage degeneration. For muscular/ ligamentous problems, a combination of medications and rest then exercises is often prescribed based on the particular problems, which, again, I don't know much about.
One other thing re: the initial question: these compounds are not anti inflammatory. DJD is not primarily an inflammatory problem, which is why the term DJD is preferred to osteoarthritis, which implies an inflammation. That's why the first choice for treatment is tylenol, which is analgesic but not antiinflammatory and also doesn't disrupt the other hormonal pathways that nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (ibuprofen, naproxen) disrupt. Thus, it doesn't cause the NSAID's classic side effects (in some) of kidney malfunction and gastric irritation including ulcers. Steroids (at least glucocorticoids, as opposed to anabolic/sex steroids) are also antiinflammatory but have too many side effects for systemic use for most arthritides. They can be used locally, injected into affected joints, but repeated use can be harmful and I've met some people who have said it worked for only 5 hrs, which only happened because a topical anesthetic is injected with the steroid.
A year and a half ago or so I also heard of an expensive injectable joint lubricant. Something only a specialist is likely to know about.
All of this may not be relevant if the shoulder problem is not cause by cartilage degeneration. For muscular/ ligamentous problems, a combination of medications and rest then exercises is often prescribed based on the particular problems, which, again, I don't know much about.
-
Guest
is there a doctor in the house?
Thanks guy's, good imformation!
The chondroitin is supposed to help regulate the building/tearing down of the cartilage and aid in the prouduction of functional synovial fluid (joint grease).
Would you it be of benifit if treating impingment? (spelling)
Laird
The chondroitin is supposed to help regulate the building/tearing down of the cartilage and aid in the prouduction of functional synovial fluid (joint grease).
Would you it be of benifit if treating impingment? (spelling)
Laird
is there a doctor in the house?
Don't think so. Should only help if the problem is the roughened cartilage surface.
-
Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
is there a doctor in the house?
Laird,
I had asked about shoulder impingements in the special need forum. Mr. darrow referred me to a site, www.jointrehab.com to read about trigger point injections. It is worth a look. I am going to meet with my doctor tomorrow am about it. I will let you know what the outcome is if you are interested.
I have had the cortizone shots twice in my shoulder with short term relief.
Understand that I am not a MD. Just a patient (and a poor one at that)
I had asked about shoulder impingements in the special need forum. Mr. darrow referred me to a site, www.jointrehab.com to read about trigger point injections. It is worth a look. I am going to meet with my doctor tomorrow am about it. I will let you know what the outcome is if you are interested.
I have had the cortizone shots twice in my shoulder with short term relief.
Understand that I am not a MD. Just a patient (and a poor one at that)
is there a doctor in the house?
Uglyelk,
the link that Troll Under The Bridge recommended you to is an excellent site explaning a treatment called prolotherepy, short for proliferation therepy. Trigger point injections are similar but not the same. I have personally had over 150 injections of prolo to permenantly cure torn ligiments in my shoulder, sacro illiac spine, both hips, and an ankle. I went to an M.D., physiatrist, and orthepedic doctor, which all sent me home and told me to, "deal with it," becuase of my excellent flexibility. The latter suggested pain killers and surgery!
I went from crippling pain that raidiated from my back down into my leg as well as up into my shoulder. I also had torn ligiments in my shoulder, hips, and ankle too. I was weak and at times could not bear weight on my right leg to walk, let alone kick. Went weeks without sleeping at night. This went on for about a year and a half, until I started treatment. I had alot of other symptoms too but will not bore you with them. Anyways, I am back in the game and never felt better. It is unbeleivable how well prolo works, I really thought my karate career was over. It is safer than asprin and has about a 90% cure rate. I have sent over 50 people to the clinic I went to and all have had good results. I will be happy to talk to you or any one else about it in more detail via email or phone if you are interested. Just let me know.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
the link that Troll Under The Bridge recommended you to is an excellent site explaning a treatment called prolotherepy, short for proliferation therepy. Trigger point injections are similar but not the same. I have personally had over 150 injections of prolo to permenantly cure torn ligiments in my shoulder, sacro illiac spine, both hips, and an ankle. I went to an M.D., physiatrist, and orthepedic doctor, which all sent me home and told me to, "deal with it," becuase of my excellent flexibility. The latter suggested pain killers and surgery!
I went from crippling pain that raidiated from my back down into my leg as well as up into my shoulder. I also had torn ligiments in my shoulder, hips, and ankle too. I was weak and at times could not bear weight on my right leg to walk, let alone kick. Went weeks without sleeping at night. This went on for about a year and a half, until I started treatment. I had alot of other symptoms too but will not bore you with them. Anyways, I am back in the game and never felt better. It is unbeleivable how well prolo works, I really thought my karate career was over. It is safer than asprin and has about a 90% cure rate. I have sent over 50 people to the clinic I went to and all have had good results. I will be happy to talk to you or any one else about it in more detail via email or phone if you are interested. Just let me know.[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
is there a doctor in the house?
What are they injecting for prolotherapy? Sounds like just an anesthetic. I do believe that local injections can break a pain cycle and produce lasting relief, usually in a lot less than 150 shots, but, it would take something else to convince me the anesthetic made tissues regenerate.
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited March 22, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Ian (edited March 22, 2002).]
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
is there a doctor in the house?
Ian
Not anesthesia. I read up on it in the past. I believe it's a sugar solution, or some other kind of "irritant." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
- Bill
Not anesthesia. I read up on it in the past. I believe it's a sugar solution, or some other kind of "irritant." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Possibly the body is responding to the injection site with (scar??) tissue growth.By injecting a substance as harmless as sugar water, a reaction occurs which stimulates a natural healing process and growth of collagen. This increases the strength and size of tendons, ligaments, and joint capsules that caused pain because of incompetency or strain at the junction with bone.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
is there a doctor in the house?
Again, when this is stated <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
I've not found literature yet showing it to be effective, but...one never knows.
- Bill
I don't get the feeling that the goal is to anesthetize the area. Rather I see the intent (efficacious or not) as being like dropping a grain of sand in an oyster.A typical solution is a local anesthetic like the novacaine used for dental procedures. I often use local anesthetic & dilute dextrose for Trigger Point Injections and for Prolotherapy.
I've not found literature yet showing it to be effective, but...one never knows.
- Bill
is there a doctor in the house?
Ian,
Mr. Glasheen is right, it is an irritant solution. The body actually heals itself, not the solution. However, it is not scar tissue but rather new tissue. I had alot of injections because I had so much area to cover(about ten sessions ia an eight month period). I can't remember the docors name, but his book is "Prolo your pain away," he is the pioneer of this technique and if I remember correctly he does list the results of studies that were conducted by him and other doctors.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
Mr. Glasheen is right, it is an irritant solution. The body actually heals itself, not the solution. However, it is not scar tissue but rather new tissue. I had alot of injections because I had so much area to cover(about ten sessions ia an eight month period). I can't remember the docors name, but his book is "Prolo your pain away," he is the pioneer of this technique and if I remember correctly he does list the results of studies that were conducted by him and other doctors.
[This message has been edited by Uechij (edited March 22, 2002).]
-
Troll Under the Bridge
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Yakima WA USA
is there a doctor in the house?
Sorry about confusing the two. that is why i put the link there so noone has to count on my memory.
I had my appointment today.
He took an x-ray to make sure there was no damage to the bones. He recommended trying the injection first. He appeared to draw it out of two different vials and I am sure one of the was an anesthetic, because it was painful while he was injecting, but he said it will numb. He also said to give it 2 or 3 days with moderate exercise. I am sorry that I didn't get the name of either solution. Will let you know in a few days what the results are. He indicated that if there wasn't some releif after a few days, we will look at more extensive imaging of the shoulder. The paper looks like it says kenalog but maybe that is just an equivelant billing. I think kenallog is for alergies.
I had my appointment today.
He took an x-ray to make sure there was no damage to the bones. He recommended trying the injection first. He appeared to draw it out of two different vials and I am sure one of the was an anesthetic, because it was painful while he was injecting, but he said it will numb. He also said to give it 2 or 3 days with moderate exercise. I am sorry that I didn't get the name of either solution. Will let you know in a few days what the results are. He indicated that if there wasn't some releif after a few days, we will look at more extensive imaging of the shoulder. The paper looks like it says kenalog but maybe that is just an equivelant billing. I think kenallog is for alergies.
-
Guest
is there a doctor in the house?
Hey guys great imformation thanks. And way more than the local medical folks have provided todate.
Went to physio and was awarded three more exercises! If things keep up like this I might even be doing a whole work out in about three months.
Exercise withdrawl makes one extremely cranky.
So decided to attack the belly ,cardio and legs while the shoulders lie dormant. Hey this might be a good thing!
Laird.
Went to physio and was awarded three more exercises! If things keep up like this I might even be doing a whole work out in about three months.
Exercise withdrawl makes one extremely cranky.
So decided to attack the belly ,cardio and legs while the shoulders lie dormant. Hey this might be a good thing!
Laird.
is there a doctor in the house?
Kenalog appears to be another name for triamcinolone. (After internet search, I didn't know it as such). That's a steroid, and in contrast to an irritant, it's supposed to decrease inflammation. The injection you got was what I described earlier, local anesthetic for immediate relief and steroid hopefully to decrease inflammation for longer relief; works for some, not others.
Not sure how dilute glucose would act as an irritant (depends on concentration I guess; every body fluid is a dilute glucose solution, and the concentrated glucose we give IV for hypoglycemia is quite irritating for veins.) But I'm the first to admit that we know so little about how the body works, it's like having a fiftieth of the puzzle pieces trying to get an idea what the whole picture is.
Laird, congrats on your progress, hope it keeps up. Allen M explained that he got some intensive accupuncture that brought him back to functional. Whatever works, is good by me. (Some people get functional by using painkillers to ignore the body's warnings, which would be an exception to the rule).
Not sure how dilute glucose would act as an irritant (depends on concentration I guess; every body fluid is a dilute glucose solution, and the concentrated glucose we give IV for hypoglycemia is quite irritating for veins.) But I'm the first to admit that we know so little about how the body works, it's like having a fiftieth of the puzzle pieces trying to get an idea what the whole picture is.
Laird, congrats on your progress, hope it keeps up. Allen M explained that he got some intensive accupuncture that brought him back to functional. Whatever works, is good by me. (Some people get functional by using painkillers to ignore the body's warnings, which would be an exception to the rule).
