Chinese - Japanese - Korean Styles

2Green · Post by **2Green** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 5:51 am

Sunsu8:

I read your reply at least 5 times; I can't believe you're 15!
Way to go! NM

dominiuno · Post by **dominiuno** » Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:01 pm

I believe the first ryu may have been Batto-Ryu kenjutsu. Katori-Shinto is definitely old, but Batto Ryu is either just as old or slightly older. But, as usualy I may be wrong.

-David

hoshin · Post by **hoshin** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:32 am

hey all;

sorry dave...batto-ryu just means sword draw and cut system,,(non-fancy iaido)however if your refering to the common Toyama-ryu batto-jutsu. this system was founded in 1925 to train military personel in swordsmanship. the batto jutsu waza are a collection of the most effective techniques.

Jorvik..
kashima shinto-ryu is the oldest according to that system . Katori shinto-ryu could also be the oldest depending on who you ask. they both were founded about the same time. ju-jitsu is a blanket term like karate of kung-fu. the term was not used untill the late 17th century. most Koryu systems were a "component system" containing many areas of study.

senjo-kumiuchi...grappling in armor
kappo... resuscitation methods
heifuku-kumiuchi... grappling in everyday wear
torite..capturing and restrianing
hade...vital points
koppo...bone smashing
__and on and on weapons included.
these old systems used kata for training however the kata were two persons and more like our kumites. but the kata were combat based meaning someone found what worked on the battle field first then made a kata for it. as the times of peace came about this changed and a commoners ju-jitstu (yawara)developed that was not meant for the battle field but for use against theifs and the typical bar brawls. Kano Jigoro used Tenjin-shin'yo-ryu as well as Kito-ryu as the foundation for his "NEW" Kodokan Judo (judo was already a system) i belive he was trying to combine the old koryu and new commoners yawara to make a complete system.

Gracie ju-jitstu came from Kano's student Mitsuyo Maeda. who trained in a koryu system as well as judo. Maeda became involved with Japans attempts to start a colony in nothern Brazil thus teaching the Gracie family.

anyhow to my view these systems all developed with little to no chinese infulence.

for now...
Hoshin
~~~~~~~

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 5:40 am

Hoshin

I heard that Kissomaru Ueshiba was responsible for introducing Kashima-ryu into Aikido..at his father's request, Morihei believed it exemplified some of Aikido's principles.
IS Kashima-ryu the oldest traditional ryu...? what about Katori-Shinto Ryu?.........
also according to the late scholar Donn F Draeger there is no such thing as Jiu-Jitsu..it is a slang term used to identify,the throwing arts of Japanese Ryu-ha...these would never have been practised in isolation( it's a little like calling seppuku, hari-kari..hara-kiri).The ryu-ha, would have practised a variety of different arts dependent on which Ryu it was...generally sword, stick,striking,throwing..tactics and this could include other weapons, also as Japan at this time was fuedal some weapons ...such as Katanas could only be used by samurai...the wakasashi could be used by the merchant class
..so that different schools also sprang up..from these.
so it would be untrue to say that jiu jitsu gave birth to Aikido...it would be better to say that Aiki-jutsu ( sometimes called Oizikiuchi) gave rise to both jiu-jitsu and Aikido.IMHO...the jiu-jitsu practised in the modern world...and this is a generalisation...derives from judo being taught as self defence and developing on its own..when I first started m.a. a lot of people thought that jiu-jitsu was something tagged onto the end of judo..I was surprised to learn on these forums that Gracie jiu-jitsu was judo played dirty...didn't know that before.

dominiuno · Post by **dominiuno** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:22 am

Ah, woops, I thought one thing and said another. Yeah I remember now that Batto ryu was used by the military officers, very cold cut techniques. The earliest Ryu (of Kenjutsu) was Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, a sect of katori shinto founded by a man who according to legend locked himself in a temple for 1,000 days to perfect his technique. (I think). Once again I may be wrong, If I am, corrections are graciously accepted.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 10:55 am

I had heard of the jiu jitsu style called "judo", but I hadn't realised that it played a part in the development of Kodokan judo.
It's interesting..because there is such an argument about Aikido ( if it can be called an argument)...there is a viewpoint that Aikido should be called Ueshiba-ha. Aikido..to distinguish it from all the other Aiki styles...which can quite rightly call themselves Aikido...they are after all practising the Aiki-arts.Interesting about the Gracies though..I heard that they attended a seminar given by Neil Adams..the U.K. judo player..that explains a lot..just shows you though, if you'd said that a judo man could fight a karate man a coupla years back.. who'd of believed it?..now everyone and his dog wants to go to ground and wrestle.

Malcolm Wagner · Post by **Malcolm Wagner** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:55 am

Okinawan karate has always been full of grappling moves "hidden" within the kata. Ever hear of Choki Motobu? His family were a bunch of renowned grapplers (The art was called "Ti"). His trademark kata, Naihanchi, is basically a grappling kata. Think about it, none of the strikes in this kata require the elbow to start from behind the body. You have to imagine yourself lying on your back, the ground is there, the elbow can't travel backwards. The crane stances, or "step overs" are actually a closed-guard position. The Naihanchi-stance itself is an open guard. The "whipping branch" blocks or back-fists, are actually defenses against chokes. Elbow smashes to your own palms as targets, are actually escapes from arm-bars. Ever wondered why the hand is under the elbow so much in this kata??? Could it be to guard against an arm-bar??? Do all of your kata while lying on your back, see what light-bulbs come on over your head.

The original systems of defense (Like Aiki-Jiu-Jitsu and Karate-Jutsu) were complete, they covered grappling, throwing, escapes, striking (arms and legs), kyusho, weapons, stealth. Only when they started teaching these systems to Japanese School Children at the start of the century, did they divided them up into seperate, more "humane", spiritual disclipines (Karate-Do, Ju-do). The Gracies did not invent anything new, they just opened our eyes to the past (wholeness). Thats why many Karate schools began studying the ground-game again; but it was already there, hidden (in plain sight) in our kata the whole time.

Mal

[This message has been edited by Malcolm Wagner (edited July 25, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Malcolm Wagner (edited July 25, 2002).]

ecalavia · Post by **ecalavia** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:53 pm

GSantaniello...is absolutely wrong in his assumptions about the Koreans being small. I have spent 23 years traveling. I've been to Asia...lived in Indonesia, Malaysia, spent time in Thailand, Phillipines,a month traveling all over Mainland China with Chinese friends 1979, but in particular Japan, Okinawa, and Korea. I can say for sure if one were inclined to draw a steryotype...the Koreans are among the largest and biggest boned people in all of asia. The truth is they tend to be larger than the average Sicillian or southern Spaniard! For what it is worth, I think diet has a lot to do with it, but say he is incorrect on that point in any case. Just my observations.

[This message has been edited by ecalavia (edited July 26, 2002).]

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 12:25 am

[This message has been edited by GSantaniello (edited July 29, 2002).]

ecalavia · Post by **ecalavia** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:09 am

G I thought you were American.
Yea the "?" mark led me to comment.
I referd to many short yet powerful people I saw in Sicily the west as compared to Korea,asia. I think size is very much a matter of nutrition. I was surprised to see so many short older people on Sicily, yet it is easy to overlook the deprivation war placed upon the peoples of the world during WW2 and the post war era.
I honestly had no idea you had Sicilian genes, but if so, congradulations. You are likely aware of the regionalism of Italy and its vast variety.. I included the southern Spaniards since...I saw many shorter older people there also, more than in say, Holland.
In both cases the younger generations are seemingly every bit as big as we are on average in the US.
That aside, I think of my time there in the fondest and highest regards.
The horror of WW2 lasted a long time for those people and living was not easy before or after, as I am sure you know.
Try to imagine what the Koreans have endured, heck WW2 just kept going for them.
Now, I have two friends who never came home after staying on Sicily a few months because they like it so much...that says something of how times certainly have changed.
Well, the Irish imigrants to the US at the time of the Great Starvation were small, gaunt, sick, and did look a lot like the "Funny" characters in the old newspaper drawings of the day. Yet with food to eat they don't look so... Again a matter of nutrition.
It is far to easy to make assumptions based upon a few encounters. It is also quite natural to draw upon ones experience.
I doubt the Koreans martial art system was developed due to a lack of relative stature is my point.
My impression of them is that they tend to be larger than most Asian peoples, really every bit as tall as most western people.
I really hesitate to start making stereotypes like that, not due to any positive or negtive connotation but because they are so often faluty.

[This message has been edited by ecalavia (edited July 26, 2002).]

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 4:51 am

ecalavia,

Thank you for your responce. You are also correct in that i am "American". Also, i might add that, i am proud to be one.

However, i do have routs of both Italian & Sicilian. As all of us do have some heritage from other countries. Some more than others.

To all,

I sincerely appologize for my accidental
posting of my entire cut, copy & past. As i have only used it a few times (with good sucess) this time for some reason, my "deletions" which was 90% of it, appeared in my posting.

Biil G.

Please edit out my entire post at your convenience as it was once again, accidental. However, moderators only can delete posting from their forums.

My appologies.

------------------

Gary S.

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 6:17 pm

Possibly we may conclude that the variations in the elements of syles lay within the founders and origins veiws and needs ?

As we know that some of the softer systems, meaning more yeilding and deflecting, had been derived from some Japanese fighting arts. Which may clearify that not all apanese systems are of the same elements. As some of their Karate systems are very powerfull and strong in their striking and blocking principles.

It is also my understanding that at one time, China was banned from their goverment of continued teaching of martial arts. Therefore, secrectly teaching them hidden in "Tai Chi" ? Which was accepted as it appeared to be more dance like and less "threatening".

Having seen a Chinese "Crane" kata demonstrated and then a "Tiger" kata of Chinese masters at the 1988 Thompson's Island Summer Camp, it was observed that although both being of "Chinese" systems, one was much more "power" orientated than the other.

Respectfully,

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Gary S.

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:46 am

Hey Gary, one can delete his own posts.

I read a number of posts about TKD that don't sound right at all, but lately I've been too busy with other things to get involved this time around.

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

GSantaniello · Post by **GSantaniello** » Mon Jul 29, 2002 12:15 pm

Hi Allen,

Thought i might hear from you on this topic. However, i understand as you say, that you have been very busy.

I was not aware that there is a way to delete ones own "posting" or "reply".

Plese send me the info as to how it is done ? My e-mal is:

gsantaniello@webtv.net

Would appreciate it very much.

Thanks,

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Gary S.

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 10:13 am

I've infused a little life in the dormant technical section by placing instructions there.

Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera<font color=white>

[This message has been edited by Deep Sea (edited July 30, 2002).]