Sports, fighting, and the law

[Bill Glasheen]

In the NHL, there's fighting and there's retribution and there's hitting, but this, in my mind, was criminal activity

- KKFN talk show host Marc Moser

So...

* Colorado Avalanche player Steve Moore checks Marcus Naslund of Vancouver and injures him enough to take him out for a number of games.

* A number of Vancouver players promise payback in the press.

* Todd Bertuzzi baits Moore (who had been in a scuffle in the early part of the game) into a fight, but Moore doesn't take it.

* Bertuzzi cold-cocks Moore from behind with a hook, and his 240 pound body comes down on him as he falls. Moore suffers a broken neck, a concussion, and deep facial cuts.

Hmm...

When is it hockey? When is it not? What is honorable?

Moral of the story?

- Bill

[Gene DeMambro]

Did Steve Moore do anything against the rules when he body checked Marcus Naslund? Were Naslund's injuries the result of an illegal hit? Or were they just the unfortunate result of hard, but legal, body-check?

It's also telling that Moore didn't bite when he was baited before.

And there is precedent for criminal charges....

Gene

[Bill Glasheen]

Did Steve Moore do anything against the rules when he body checked Marcus Naslund?

The check, which caused a concussion, was unpenalized. Of course that doesn't mean it was a legal check. I wasn't there, and I don't know what the refs saw.

Good points.

- Bill

[Guest]

I can't endorse Bertuzzi's actions,but I think the law must be consistent. If this guy is charged for striking another player then why were the rest of the players who punched someone this year not charged? The law must be applied consistently and to all.

If someone is punched and not injured is it okay? If someone is not sucker punched but sees it coming and is hurt is it okay? Is fighting okay if no one gets hurt? Since the begining of hockey, fighting has been part of the game. It is penalized but sanctions and criminal charges are not the norm.

So when does it become a crime?

Laird

[Bill Glasheen]

Here, here!

This doesn't just apply to hockey, or even to sports for that matter. As a society, I think many of us are duplicitous on the issue of fighting.

Rick Blaine: How can you close me up? On what grounds?
Captain Louis Renault: I'm shocked — shocked to find that gambling is going on in here.
A croupier hands Renault a pile of money.
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Captain Louis Renault: Oh, thank you.... very much. Everybody out at once!

- Casablanca

- Bill

[benzocaine]

I think intent has to be weighed in here.

Did Bertuzzi intend to break his neck, or merely get in a few good punches?

I do not believe he wanted to permanently FUBAR Moore. It was merely (IMHO)a typical hockey situation gone bad.

IMHO Bertuzzi is not criminally responsible for what happened.. or at leasst any more than a professional wrestler who injures another. There is an implied risk when one plays pro hockey.

No matter what both men will have to live with what happened.

[gmattson]

I've listened to talk shows debating this issue on many occasions. Seems like the fans enjoy the fights, so the officials oblige.

I could never figure out why the officials circle around the fighting players, until in the officials' estimation, one is in danger.

I see a big lawsuit in the making. What are the rules of the game? What actually happens in the rink? Do the officials condone such behavior? Did they, by their actions (or lack of action) act in a negligent manner?

In my estimation, very similar to what karate tournament promoters experience: Rules not followed by the officials create an opportunity for an injured player to sue everyone!

[Mary S]

From Sportsline.com

"...

While Bertuzzi didn't use his stick on Moore, he sucker-punched him from behind and then rammed him into the ice face first in what was clearly a premeditated move that, in the eyes of investigating Vancouver police, might be considered criminal.

Moore, a 25-year-old Harvard grad used mainly as a checker by Colorado, had a "bounty" put on his head by Vancouver players after he checked Markus Naslund three weeks ago, causing the Canucks captain to miss three games with a concussion.

The hit wasn't penalized and the league decided no subsequent disciplinary action was required, but the Vancouver team obviously wouldn't let it go. Despite the fact that Monday night's game was crucial in the teams' neck-and-neck battle for the Northwest Division title,

By the third period, Colorado had blown the game wide open and the Canucks decided there was no more point to controlling themselves. And when Moore refused to be goaded into another fight with Cooke, Bertuzzi went off and jumped the Colorado player.

After the game, stunned Vancouver players tried to defend their teammate, even if they were defending the action.

"Todd is very sorry," Naslund said. "He obviously gave him a sucker punch Vancouver's Matt Cooke wasted little time getting into a fight with Moore during the first period.but he feels really awful about it right now."

"Think what you want, but Todd Bertuzzi is a good man," added Brad May. "He tried to do the right thing, without a doubt the right thing. It went sour."

Exactly. And Moore is lying in a Vancouver hospital with a concussion, a neck fracture, deep facial lacerations and abrasions to the forehead, right cheek and upper lip. He is not yet in condition to be flown back to Colorado for further treatment.

That's why Bertuzzi has to feel the full wrath of the league's disciplinary office. Otherwise the league might as well sell itself as the modern-day version of the movie Slapshot.

NHL VP Colin Campbell, who is responsible for deciding suspensions, has to use McSorley's punishment as a guide. If it helps, he can take into account how insufficient the 12-game suspension then-Los Angeles Kings forward Matt Johnson received in 1998 for his blindside swing against New York Rangers defenseman Jeff Beukeboom.

Johnson, now with the Minnesota Wild, ended Beukeboom's career with that blow.

Hopefully, Moore's fate will be better than that. He is out for the rest of the season. Bertuzzi should be as well."


Guilty, guilty guilty....Bertuzzi should be banned from the game AND face criminal charges, and all sports should take a lesson from this kind of behaviour!!

[jaybo]

Hey there;

I think in any rough sport w/ contact, there's implied consent to some risk of getting hurt. I don't think a clean check would negate this implied consent. Nor would a fight between two players that are game to drop the gloves and go at it.

But this clearly crossed the line and in such cases, I say if the injured player is out for the rest of the year, so should the sucker puncher. Of course intent enters the picture and pay-back and so on, but this is where things are black and white. Buddy didn't want to go, so buddy should have nailed him with a clean check, or somebody should have. Charges? Well, since I think it goes beyond implied consent, I say it warrants a look by the police and the prosecution office. Yes, there are precedents and sometimes, "I'm sorry" just doesn't cut it, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

WRT letting them fight, I feel the league thinks it sells tickets. Same as smaller ballparks and suspect balls make for gigantic home runs which no doubt people would think puts the fans in the seats.

The refs will let the fighters go until they're basically too tired to go any longer or one has a clear advantage. I also think the refs do it to avoid getting a knock on the kisser themselves in these fast and furious fights. Also, if a ref(linesmen) jumps in t the wrong time and one of the players is still fresh, well, I've seen players getting held apart and the stronger/fresher one break free for a few wide open shots to the tired guy who is getting held back and has no way of fighting back.

Just my 2 cents

Keep your sticks on the ice;

jaybo

[Guest]

I've listened to talk shows debating this issue on many occasions. Seems like the fans enjoy the fights, so the officials oblige.

I could never figure out why the officials circle around the fighting players, until in the officials' estimation, one is in danger.

Officials wait for the fight to go to the ground or the fighters to clinch and stop trading shots. Referee's and linesmen are not bouncers or professional athletes. They use these saftey first methods of breaking up fights in order to survive. These officials are not paid to go toe to toe against these million dollar athletes.

I see a big lawsuit in the making. What are the rules of the game? What actually happens in the rink? Do the officials condone such behavior? Did they, by their actions (or lack of action) act in a negligent manner?

I think it can be argued that this fighting is indeed outside the scope of the game. It is penalized and it does occur outside of the ticking clock. Is anything that occurs outside the game a legal responsibility of the NHL?

In my estimation, very similar to what karate tournament promoters experience: Rules not followed by the officials create an opportunity for an injured player to sue everyone!

The officials and NHL have followed the rules. They stop the game pass out penalties and evict players. They can not be held responsible if a player fights outside of the rules .

Pretty hard to claim in court that you didn't know you might get involved in a fight in hockey by the time one makes it to the pro's they have seen the odd fight.

But this clearly crossed the line and in such cases, I say if the injured player is out for the rest of the year, so should the sucker puncher.

so are we sugesting a tougher punishment because of the damage inflicted?What would the punishment be if the sucker puncher lost the fight? Are we punishing for the infraction or the result? If an ilegal body check destroys a knee and ends a career should we pass out a 2 minute penalty or a life time ban?


Laird

[Guest]

Bertuzzi cold-cocks Moore from behind with a hook, and his 240 pound body comes down on him as he falls. Moore suffers a broken neck, a concussion, and deep facial cuts

an avalance player then jumps on Bertzzi's back and throws a hook.

So here's another question. If we suspend Bertuzzi for punching from behind and landing on Moore , should we also not suspend the Avalance player who jumped on Bertuzzi and hooked from behind?

If not why not?

[Guest]

Some interesting articles

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do? ... ID=1546865

http://www.mytelus.com/sports/article.d ... ID=1547167

http://www.mytelus.com/sports/article.d ... ID=1547102&

[Doug Erickson]

Hi everyone--I am new to the site and to Uechi, but as a lifelong hockey player and fan I've been interested to read everyone's reactions to this incident.

First of all, I've seen Moore's hit on Naslund and there was nothing wrong with it. It's unfortunate that Naslund sustained a concussion, but clean hits result in concussions all the time.

Having seen the replay of Bertuzzi's attack on Moore, I've lost all respect for Bertuzzi as a hockey player and as a person. A man of his size doesn't need to be sucker punching anyone from behind, and to follow up the sucker punch by driving Moore's head into the ice (again, from behind) was one of the ugliest things I've ever seen in a hockey game.

In my opinion, the NHL doesn't discipline its players anywhere near as severely as it should. I think anyone who injures an opposing player via an illegal play should be suspended and should sit until the injured player has recuperated and returns to action. I also think intent-to-injure penalties should carry with them mandatory and lengthy suspensions; 20 games minimum. And I think that after a certain number of intent-to-injury penalties (say, two) or suspensions (maybe three?) in a career, you should be thrown out of the league.

When you consider the speed at which these players are moving on the ice in the NHL, when you hit someone illegally you are potentially taking that person's livelihood into your own hands. Everyone is out there to make a living, and if you put someone's capacity to do so in jeopardy through intentionally dirty play, you should face severe consequences. These guys get to play a sport they love for millions of dollars; as far as I'm concerned, that is a privilege, not a right, and maybe seeing that privilege revoked for Mr. Bertuzzi will help others inclined to similar acts of stupidity reconsider.

Laird asks whether we are (or should be) punishing the infraction or the result. In my mind, since the infraction causes the result, the perpetrator is responsible for both and should face consequences for both. The situation we have now, where an illegal hit that can cost the recipient a full season of rehab, while the perpetrator gets a five game suspension and then is merrily back on the ice, really offends my sense of justice.

[Stryke]

Interesting , the sport should punish the infraction and not the result

also there are rules and there are rules , this is another example of pc gone mad , IMHO the guy should be punished for taking a shot from behind I havent seen it , If theres an unwritten rule that fightings fine then its fine .... We dont take kindly to cheap shots down here .

Fights have been almost stamped out from rugby and league , its not quite the same , everyone knew the score , ruckings going the same way , and it is to the detriment of the game , everyone new once upon a time that you get on the wrong side of a ruck then you earn your stripes .

there are laws and there are laws , no one wants accidents to happen , its all about intent , and its all about the circumstances and whats common law for the enviroment .

tough stuff , only thing for sure is no ones gonna win

[Guest]

this is another example of pc gone mad

Marcus you calling me PC , no one has ever called me that before .I don't think they should punish the guy, I think they should let him play so Moore's teammates can sort him out. Hows that for PC.

We dont take kindly to cheap shots down here .

This all started over a perceived cheap shot. This was cowardly plain and simple.

only thing for sure is no ones gonna win

I echo that!


Laird