Severe Training Versus Hazing

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RACastanet
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Severe Training Versus Hazing

Post by RACastanet »

Bill suggested in my earlier USMC UBBC thread that I start a new thread addressing hazing.

Without a doubt, some hazing takes place in most training scenarios and the USMC is no different. In the Martial Arts Instructor Trainer (MAIT) course the physical and mental training is extreme, but this is an elite group in top physical shape. The academic portion includes training the trainers in the methods of maximizing performance without the use of hazing.

My take on the ultimate course goal is to produce martial art warrior athletes and cohesion among Marines. As these Marines will at some point be in deadly situations they are pushed hard to develop their maximum potential, while taking care not to damage them physically or mentally.

What initially looked like hazing to this mere mortal is in fact well conditioned Marines functioning at the top end of their ability. By week 7 of the current course, they will all be functioning at the maximum level they are capable of, a level they are not yet aware they can achieve.

So, without my getting into much detail yet, how about others jumping in with their inputs and suggestions and experiences regarding hazing.

Rich
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Drew Doolin
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USMC Definition and Policy on Hazing

Post by Drew Doolin »

Rich,
In my organization, hazing is defined as "conduct by one military member to another that causes suffering or exposure to an activity which is cruel, abusive, humiliting or oppressive. It includes: forms of initiation or congratulatory act that involves physically striking another to inflict pain; verbal condemnation or bitter antagonistic attack of another; encouraging another to excessively consume alcohol; encouraging another to engage in illegal, harmful, or dangerous acts. Consent to these acts is not considered a defense."

Hazing is strictly prohibited.

Hard, purposeful training is not hazing. (To some, seeing Sanchin Kitae for the first time seems abusive. Hey, I took some shots in Chatan dojo that constituted a outright beating. One could argue, in that case, that the kitae I received WAS HAZING, it is was physically damaging and did not achieve what I knew (as a willing participant) to be the stated purpose of the kitae.) But, I digress.

Just wanted to ensure we had a basis for what constitutes hazing, before the thread takes off.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

A few quick questions here...

* How much of the physical/psychological stress that they put recruits under is part of building "espirit de corp?" This would be vital - particularly where units are sent over as a whole from training to combat.

* How much would be vital to desensitization of the consequences of battle and killing? Anyone who has read Grossman's work now understands the link between killing and PTSD.

* How do you know you are getting the right effect?

These are broad questions. However I ask them because I've had martial arts instructors who have walked the fine line between psychological training and "hazing." I don't think the harshness of these methods was entirely without merit.

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Thanks for the input Drew. Yes, the Marines are very sensitive to hazing. Much of what is taught at the MAIT course is on how to develop training methods that are very challenging but are not hazing. Also they train the ITs to teach Instructors to do the same thing.

From where I sit, what transpires at boot camp is quite a bit different than what is happening at the MAIT course. Boot camp is designed to make Marines. That requires stripping away indidualism and create the cohesion and esprit of a fighting unit. The MAIT course is developing Marines into the top line Trainers of the Corps. I'll sit with our friend Sean after he has completed the course and get his first hand input on this point as he will have experienced both.

We really need a Marine such as Drew or perhaps Jay Sal to weigh in on this. I'm in the loop of MCMAP but have not experienced what they have.

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Post by RACastanet »

Wow... I thought that we would hear from many with their stories of hazing in the dojo and elsewhere. Is it not occuring?

More on the Marines MA Program...

Are they hazing Marines as part of the training? Here is the input I received yesterday while at the MA school:

Marines are being pushed farther and harder than they believe they can perform to show them what they can accomplish. Some of the training is designed so that it cannot be completed successfully just to see how far the Marines in training can go and how they perform. Why?

The history of combat has shown that Marines, soldiers ... often face odds that seem to be insurmountable, but often succeed when they should not. This is the trainng model. Is it hazing? No, it is realistic training.

Also, when creating realistic trainng are injuries acceptable? Yes. Realistic training for warriors must push them to extremes or endurance. Do they want to lose 50%? No, 0% is the goal but it is rarely achieved.

More later.

Rich
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A tough job..

Post by gmattson »

Good points Rich. The marines are being trained for battle. It's there job. Generally, the "realistic" training is focused during their initial training. (not sure if any of them go through this kind of training throughout their careers)

In the dojo, this type of training is best termed as "hazing", and is something the average student doesn't recognize nor criticizes. "You don't like it - Leave!"

And many do.

A certain amount of conditioning and instructor (or peer to peer) physical contact can be justified a physical program involving self-defense. However, what goes on in some dojo is purely and simply, instructor ignorance and/or abuse.

I highly recommend Mark Bishop's book: "Okinawan Karate" Teachers, styles and secret techniques for an interesting and, in my opinion, excellent critique of "hazing" (or whatever you wish to call it) in some Okinawan dojo.

Lots of weird teachers and beliefs out there... Choose your teacher carefully.
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Post by KZMiller »

I've been very fortunate and haven't experienced hazing, though maybe some of my classmates might consider some of our training as hazing from their point of view. I think it's important to clearly define hazing as much as possible so that people don't fall into the trap of 'it's hard, therefore it's unnecessarily cruel and therefore hazing.'

What I did experience links to the concept of Marines having their limits challenged to accomplish what they mentally thought impossible (or highly improbably, anyway). There was an instructor deliberately setting me up for failure because he had an agenda. I don't know where the university found this guy, but he was a TKD instructor who taught a term of judo. In his opinion, stated baldly on the first day of class, only big people succeed in judo (and therefore TKD was far superior). I couldn't suppress a smile and he saw me do it. Oops. From that point on, it was his goal to prove to me that judo wouldn't work for me. It didn't help that his first idea was to put me up against the biggest, heaviest guy in class for what I guessed was supposed to be randori with an audience. I have no idea what his internal excuse was for setting me up on the first day of class in a match like that. What a jerk. I wonder what the rest of the class thought of it too. Anyway, I threw the guy, based on my very limited experience in the judo club at the time. It wasn't a clean throw, but I did it. That pissed the instructor off big time. He was very gleeful when the guy stood up with me hanging off of him, pried me off and tossed me to the ground. There was his proof, I guess, that the little guy (or gal) can't win, but he continued to have it in for me for the remainder of the term. It was good training, though! I had to really buckle down to keep myself from quitting and dropping the class. He never got outright abusive, nor did he try to directly punish me himself, which was nice. From what I could judge at the time he had pretty good skills and could have hurt me if he wanted to. So it turned out to be a somewhat positive experience. Definitely character building. So even the instructor's negative intent didn't sour that pushing beyond limits. Long term practice with him, however, would have been a case of rapidly diminishing returns. I imagine training of Marines also has rapidly diminishing returns. Is that why (to my knowledge) they train brutally hard for relatively short periods at specific courses and then coast for awhile before taking the next course? If so, how long are these training courses? It seems to me the military has this down to a science.

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Post by Frank DiMeo »

Rich--
I don't know whoever coined the phrase of "hazing", however, I am somewhat familiar with receiving an Airborne welcome.
Getting your Jump Wings was a different issue than becoming "part" of the unit.
Military humor is a little different; it's funny to remember some of the stunts those guys pulled.
I don't know if that helped, but it gave me a few chuckles thinking abouit it.
Thanks,
Frank
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

My first karate instructor (non Uechi) engaged in severe training. Among the many things we did...

* Go on jogs in the snow - barefoot. Actually I've had my students do that, although I give them the option not to. There must be pictures out there somewhere of Uechi students doing sanchin barefoot in the snow on Mr. Jefferson's UVa lawn.

* Weekend long camps where we would:

** Have to block flaming sticks being struck down on you.

** Have to kneel in the ocean and punch for 20 minutes - in February

** Crawl on your belly for about a mile on the sand dunes of North Carolina.

** Get beaten by a shinai at the instructor's whim. Lots of purple welts...

** Get awakened at 2 AM for a workout. And it was rarely a pleasant one.

** Get the $hit beaten out of you in 3-on-1 sparring matches (until you figured out how to do it right).

** Etc.

I didn't mind doing this stuff just so I could show the S.O.B. that he couldn't break me. I only questioned when it was clear that this individual was crossing the line between benevolent drillmaster and emotionally flawed cult figure. That line is difficult to define, but you know it when you see it. Sigh...

- Bill
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