"Endogenous" breathing

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Bill Glasheen
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"Endogenous" breathing

Post by Bill Glasheen »

The following question was asked on the 6th page of the Uechi Breathing thread...
pfsjkd wrote:So it seems like Frolov's material is based entirely on the Bohr Effect. If this doesn't take place unless the blood gets alkolotic (forgive me if I misuse a term, I feel like I'm getting a Ph.D. is the pulmonary sciences reading this thread), then wouldn't it tend to invalidate his idea of increasing CO2 in the blood?

However, he cites high altitude atheletes as being proof that using less oxygen is better. I'd like to hear all you really smart people discuss the effects of altitude on training.

Thanks.
Bill wrote:I'm a little confused. Could you possibly point me to the reference on Frolov?

Thanks.

- Bill
pfsjkd wrote:This quote from Scott Sonnon's site was posted earlier in the thread:

"Russian and former Soviet research, by men like Dr. V. Frolov, Dr. K. Buteyko and Prof. R. Strelkov (Frolov, Endogenous Breathing) surmised that deep breathing serves as the root cause of many illnesses. Deep-breathers suffer from O2 starvation and so they “over-breathe” which begins the cycle called the Hyperventilation Feedback Loop."

Frolov's site is www.intellectbreathing.com.

A very basic synopsis of his theory, if I'm not mistaken, is that the tissues absorb O2 with a better efficiency if CO2 is elevated slightly. He cites cultures that live at high alititudes as having less illness and naturally being in better shape, and uses hyperventalation as proof of his theory. He has a lot of science on the site, but it starts to get over my head.

But it seems to me from reading this thread that excess O2 (or deficient CO2??) is only a problem when the blood becomes alkolotic. He seems to postulize that this mechanism is at work all the time. Of course, I could be misunderstanding his theory.
I'm posting my response here. I'm hoping that Dr. Ian, Steve Goss, and Ben chime in with their thoughts.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

OK, I understand now.

I have a few comments before engaging in the "science."
There are only several spots on the globe where people can live long and healthy. All those places are highlands.
Ssscccrrreeeeeetttccchhhh!!!! Stop right there.

Do you know where people live the longest? Japan and Okinawa. Okinawa in particular is a farming and fishing culture that lives at sea level. You don't get much lower than that, do you?

By the way, why do (did) Okinawans live longer? We're now just beginning to understand why. Those who move to the West and live a Western lifestyle die just as early, and of the same illnesses. Diet likely has a lot to do with it. Avoiding animal fats and having fats from raw fish seems to be key. Having a lower calorie diet also seems to be important. You might not grow as tall, but you will live longer.
It's all about the air they breathe. The air in the highlands contains less oxygen than in the lowlands. And the highlanders' way of breathing differs from ours. Can you stay at home and also breathe the same air in the same way? Yes.

Respiratory training device FRTD-01 developed by Dinamika, Ltd. creates the air of highlands right in your lungs.
Ssscccrrreeeeeetttccchhhh!!!!

Can you say Infomercial? Beware of the snake oil salesman.

Also, this guy has some strange spellings of common biochemical terms, if not outright misspellings. Kreatine instead of creatine, and mol instead of mole. One has to wonder...

That being said...

To start with, he describes things that most folks with a basic understanding of biochemistry and respiratory physiology already know. There are three forms of energy production. Two of them (phosphocreatine and glycolysis) are anaerobic, and used for short, intense periods of high energy production - much higher than aerobic respiration can support. Weightlifters and 100 meter sprinters use the phosphocreatine system. Middle distance runners and workers used glycolysis - the type of energy production that creates "the burn" (lactic acid production in the muscles). And finally, long distance runners rely on aerobic respiratory mechanisms for energy production. This is long-distance, lower output production.

When at rest and not taxed, we engage in aerobic respiration and energy production. The phosphocreatine and glycolysis systems are your high power energy reserves.

This guy is talking about training the body to use both aerobic and glycolytic mechanisms at rest. Fine... It's likely done by those who move up to higher altitudes, and by folks with COPD who are chronically under-respirated. But it's worth mentioning that the body fights you along the way. When you cheat your body of oxygen like this, the body will respond by making more red blood cells. Ultimately homeostasis dictates that the body finds a new operating point. That means the blood develops greater oxygen carrying capacity. But that comes at the expense of higher blood viscosity, which means the heart must work harder and/or the peripheral vasculature must relax more.

This gentleman suggests that a certain degree of anaerobic respiration via glycolysis occurs at the same time as normal aerobic respiration. Furthermore, he's suggesting that it's healthier because there's less free radical production.

Hmm... :?

He suggests buying his device (of course) and training via some exercises.

In the end, I conclude the following:

1) His device adds resistance to inhalation and exhalation. The Goju Ryu practitioner learns to do this without a device. I teach this in my dojo, and call it "dragon breathing." You "sniff" your inhale, and "hiss" your exhale. The former is done by pinching the nostrils with nose muscles. The latter is done by restricting the epiglottis. (For some reason, I find a few people have a hard time doing this. Go figure... They end up doing a "sshhh" or "sss" sound with the mouth or tongue. What-ever...)

2) The breathing exercises accomplish a lot of the same things done in Uechi sanchin. Many folks complain in the beginning that they can't get enough air. They end up turning blue. Over time, you learn to breathe more efficiently. I've always wondered why this happens, and thought it had something to do with using turbulent air flow with the quick bursts of respiration (exhale/inhale, then long pauses). This guy is suggesting you're teaching your body to add in a little bit of glycolysis to your normal aerobic respiration. Maybe...

I'm left scratching my head a little bit here.

It's well known that folks who suffer from COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease) have very, very different respiration from those who breathe "normally." They can operate at higher blood PCO2 levels a lower PO2 levels than the healthy folks can. The body has learned to adapt in a number of ways. Certainly higher hematocrit (more red blood cells) are part of it, but a type of mixed aerobic and anaerobic breathing at rest makes sense. I believe the body may also shift the oxygen dissociation curve a bit (when the red blood cells release O2) via more 2,3 DPG production. My knowledge of such is a little rusty, but I believe I'm right here.

Is it healthy? Does it make you live longer? I remain skeptical.

Is it good to develop this w/o disease? Maybe. Many long distance athletes train at high altitude to get the extra reserve capacity before then competing at lower altitudes in a race. But these are the folks who do long distance events.

Can you do these exercises without buying the guys device? Absolutely, using the "dragon breathing" methods I spoke of. Furthermore, you're likely to have a few beneficial effects from doing it actively rather than passively. I discovered that I now sing better after doing dragon breathing exercises. The reasons are many and the benefits are subtle, but it makes sense when you think about it. I learned how to do a good diaphragmatic vibrato. I have better tonal range. Etc., etc.

As for the other biochemical effects, well we were talking about the shorter-term Bohr effect. That has to do with the shift of the oxygen dissociation curve (the release of an attachment of O2 from the red blood cells). Many things affect this - blood pH (acidity vs. alkalinity) and 2,3 DPG (diphosphogluconate) are two ways I can think of off the top of my head.

One more thing... Your body's blood PCO2 levels (carbon dioxide in the blood) affect blood pH. Dissolved carbon dioxide and water has a natural equilibrium conversion to carbonic acid. The higher the blood PC02, the higher the carbonic acid levels. High PCO2 levels purely from respiratory mechanisms (insufficient respiration) results in what is known as respiratory acidosis (as opposed to metabolic acidosis). Over breathing (hyperventilation) shifts the equilibrium the other direction with lower PCO2 levels. Thus over breathing results in respiratory alkalosis. But as you said, this is all short term.

Extended periods of under breathing can result in the kinds of stimuli on the system that produce the effects that those with COPD and those who live at high altitudes achieve.

FWIW...

Anyhow, my commentary has been 90% science, and 10% speculation. Perhaps Ian, Steve Goss, and Ben can comment further.

Save your money on the device, BTW, unless it's inexpensive. It should be; there's not much to it. I've made things like that in the dog lab with spare parts.

And as always, anyone who claims to help increase your lifespan if only you buy their stuff should be treated with extreme skepticism.

- Bill
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Post by benzocaine »

I'll have to be breif as I am at work. I'll elaboreate more when I get a little goof off time here.

1) Low oxygen levels at high altitude isn't directly related to the amount one ventliates.(or how fast one breathes) It is related to the atmospheric pressure at that altitude. At sea level oxygen gives us "normal" amounts of O2. Above sealevel the pressure of oxygen in the lungs drops. Conversely when under the water at a depth of 30 feet or we increase atmospheric pressure 1time, 60 feet 2 times, ect.

Hyperbaric chambers(chambers that increase atmospheric pressure) are used in medacine often to increase the amount of oxygen in the blood to combat anaerobic bacteria.

I'll share more later.... work calls :roll:
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Post by benzocaine »

OK. This is from the website http://www.intellectbreathing.com where they claim it can help with bronchial asthma. I'll put my 2 cents in on each 'benefit' they claim.


Before I go further let me explain in basic terms what asthma is and does. It is an inflamation of the the tubes in your lungs (called bronchi and bronchioles) causing increased mucus. It is refered to as an obstructive airway disease. It's difficult to get the air out of the lungs. Air gets trapped in the lungs making it hard for new air to get in and oxygenate the blood.
Higher negative aspiratory pressure liquidizes bronchial mucus, clears your bronchi and lungs from mucus and sputum and improves airways of accessory bronchi.

:lol: Pressure does not liquidize mucus.

We don't currently do any thing like that for people in an asthma attack. It's hard enough to breath for them as it is without breathing against something. It could exacerbate the persons condition and even kill them.
Higher expiratory pressure has the bronchodilator action. This improves pulmonary ventilation, increases the oxygen share in blood, organs and tissues
No!No!No! Pseudoscience! The asthmatic is already suffering from increased expiratory pressure. Air is trapped in there.
Diaphragmatic flutter maximally involves pulmonary tissue into the act of breathing, increases the breathing surface of your lungs and intensifies the drainage of your thoracic cavity helping remove sputum and mucus
Ok.. this had me wondering because we use a device called a flutter valve. People blow into it and it opens and closes causing the pressure in the lungs to fluctuate. That actually helps 'shake' mucous loose down the bronchial tree. What's described above remotely sounds like this.. but a broken clock is right twice a day.
Controlled hypercapnia and stimulation of centers which blockade the parasympathetic activity and take part in regulation of contraction and relief of smooth bronchial muscles, reduce your bronchi spasm.
Gee if we only knew! All these people who just so happen to live with chronic obstructive disease just needed this device. After all they live with hypercapnia. I wonder what centers he is talking about?

Ok I've given this site way to much of my time. My head hurts now :)
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Post by RACastanet »

quote:
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There are only several spots on the globe where people can live long and healthy. All those places are highlands.
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Bill: Do you get National Geographic reguarly? A few years ago there was an article on people who live at high altitudes, over 10,000 feet. As I recall they were studying villages in the Andes and Himalayan mountains. One observation was that there was a higher incidence of heath problems than experienced in the world'd population in general.

I do not know if a search would turn that study up, but the conclusion was that living in a state of hypoxia is not a good thing.

Rich
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich

I don't have a National Geographic subscription but this makes sense. For the life of me, I don't know why this person made the claim.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Higher expiratory pressure has the bronchodilator action. This improves pulmonary ventilation, increases the oxygen share in blood, organs and tissues
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No!No!No! Pseudoscience! The asthmatic is already suffering from increased expiratory pressure. Air is trapped in there.
Actually he is sort of right, but didn't explain it right.

You are right, Ben, that folks with asthma suffer from an inability to exhale properly. It is indeed caused by inflammation of the small airways. Several methods are used to treat this:

1) In an emergency, one can use a beta sympathetic agonist. This causes dilation of those airways. But it's a quick fix.

2) Over the long run, one wants to use steroids to reduce the inflammation so that the airways open up.

3) Better still, one should learn what triggers cause the inflammation in the first place: dust mites, pollen, whatever...

Meanwhile...during an asthma attack, one can indeed use "pursed lip breathing" during an exhale. Paradoxically this does open up those inflamed airways enough (via increasing the intrabronchial pressure) to let the air out.

But just because someone uses such emergency measures to help bronchial air flow during an asthma attack doesn't mean it's particularly useful for normal people.

BTW, your explanation of the flutter valve was good. That is indeed a good way to dislodge mucous in the small airways. But this really is more of an issue for COPD and asthmatics with a respiratory infection than it is for run-of-the-mill asthma.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Rich

This is the article you speak of.

Three High-Altitude Peoples,
Three Adaptations to Thin Air


The Andeans have adapted (genetically as opposed to short-term adaptations) by having a higher hemoglobin content in the blood. They were a bit nonspecific here. I'm thinking they mean more hemoglobin per red blood cell, as opposed to more red blood cells (the higher hematocrit, which we all can produce as an adaptation). Having more hemoglobin per cell means you don't end up with extremely high viscosity blood as you would with a higher hematocrit (more RBC's per ml of blood).

The Tibetans have adapted by producing more nitric oxide. This causes blood vessels to dilate. (As an aside, Viagra works to make nitric oxide last longer in the penile vasculature). But they also have a greater minute ventilation (equals higher respiratory-rate x tidal-volume). Take a look at your average Sherpa. They have barrel chests.

It is not known (yet) how the Ethiopian highlanders have evolved - if in any way - to make it easier to live at high altitude. It could be that they use the same mechanisms that you and I would, and just do fine with subsistence living.

Nothing in this short version of the article about long term health effects of natives. You and I would suffer; natives have evolved via natural selection (genetics) to do better at that altitude.

- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Thanks!

Post by pfsjkd »

Keep the comments coming. I like Scott Sonnon's stuff a lot, but he seems to have hitched up with Frolov. When I went to Frolov's site I, too was struck by the snake oil sales pitch like tenor of his site. But he used a bunch of fancy words and confused me!

Thanks again for clearing some stuff up.
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Post by benzocaine »

We teach pursed lip breathing to our COPD patients often. It is a good way to help them create a back pressure in their lungs and also forces them to exhale over a longer period of time.. which is important for a person who has difficulty getting air out quickly. http://www.cchs.net/health/health-info/ ... index=9443

I see your point about it being helpful. This article explains it some more.
http://asthma.about.com/library/weekly/aa011998.htm

Maybee part of the reason the website for the breathing excersizer is so hard to interpret at times is that it is based in Russia. Maybee whoever wrote it had a few grammatical errors?

PS. Leukotriene inhibitors work for some folks with asthma too. It helps them avoid using steroids.
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Yes, the leukotriene inhibitors (Singulair) are a relatively new medication (technically it's a leukotriene receptor antagonist). Good stuff. It takes longer to kick in, but has a very long effect. It gets at the allergic response, as opposed to being anti-inflammatory like the inhaled steroids. But I hear that the severe asthmatics have to use both. For example, they might be on Singulair and Advair, which is the whole nine yards (anti-allergic plus anti-inflammatory plus beta agonist).

Good point about stuff being lost in the translation. Sometimes it's hard to know if they are on the money or not when there is bad English.

- Bill
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Post by benzocaine »

Advair is great stuff. Many asthmatics are given a whole new life thanks to this drug.

Unfortunately the patent hasn't run out and it's very expensive. Many people can't afford to have it. :( I look forward to when the generic alternative can be given.
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Post by Sonnon »

Dear friends,

Dr. Frolov and I met a philosophical impasse when he published that athletic exercise, including all sports (such as Clubbell® swinging and martial arts), by his definition decreased health and diminished longevity with each participation. As my institutional credo (Proportio Divina Athleticus) suggests, I disagree.

Dubious science aside, and as Bill stated regarding Uechi style breathing exercise, there are no results with the Frolov device which cannot be reproduced and surpassed through my Performance Breathing™ method.

In good conscience, I cannot support a device when the benefits it purports can be otherwise gained and surpassed without the aid of the device. As a result, my company no longer carries the Frolov device or his book.
Scott Sonnon
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Scott

Good to hear from you. It's good to see that great minds think alike. :lol:

At least the dissection of his work has us all thinking and learning. That's not all bad.

- Bill
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Post by RACastanet »

Bill: The article you found is really interesting as it details how the human body adapts. However, this is not the article I referred to. The one I'm referencing goes back a few years.

Asthma: This is a topic I can relate to. Growing up I had a full blown case of asthma, plus any number of allergies. We lived in a coal town south of Pittsburgh and the air was literally gray much of the year. Winter was particulary bad as cold dry air made matters worse.

Fortunately I pretty much outgrew the asthma and most of the allergies. What I experience now is exercise induced symptoms. There is a threshold under which I have virtually no symptoms at all, and can go for hours at a pretty high level of activity. However, once I exceed my threshold getting air becomes quite a problem. Environmental factors also raise or lower the bar for me.

I keep an albuterol inhaler around, but use it only on rare occasions. Generally, I use the pursed lip method to keep air moving. It is very unpleasant when I just cannot get air. For me, I cannot even begin to conceive what it must be like to be able to run marathons and the like. But, I struggle on. When I run in a group and the asthma surfaces it does cause concern for those around me as I sound like a steam engine chugging away.

On occasion I will encounter the problem indoors under very low exertion. It could be from cleaning agents or disinfectants or whatever is in the air. The presence of cats can do it! In fact, I can usually feel it immediately upon entering a building that has 'something in the air'. It just kills my performance.

Altitude has not been a problem for me. I have been in the mountains and high plains up to about 9,000 feet without experiencing difficulty. Must be the clean air.

Rich
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Iteresting stuff, Rich. We're glad we keep you on your toes! :wink:

I haven't yet found the older NG article yous seek, but this great, multi-part online article with many cool links seems to cover the genetic adaptations to altitude AND cover the damage to humans for being in high altitude.

Living in High Altitudes

- Bill
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