We ARE about high road training

[benzocaine]

The goal here isn't to get you in better cardiorespiratory shape so you can endure an extreme SSR (Survival Stress Response). Rather the goal is to be able to manage the SSR to a level where you perform in an optimal fashion and can access your training.

I understand. This is a good thread.

Bill another PM. THanks.

[gmattson]

going on here:

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?t=13729

[RA Miller]

Here's a thought for you, Bill and what I believe and teach my students is necessary toaccess the higher order skills under stress.

Since justifying our choice of experts came up recently (my fault) I'll name Lonnie Athens and Konrad Lorenz as the inspirations for this one.

Athens pointed out (speaking about the psychology and sociology of criminals) that people rarely change largely because what they have done in the past worked. It hasn't gotten them killed, so on a very low-road level people are pre-disposed to do either what has worked in the past or, if there is no frame of reference, freezing.

He was talking about change and personal growth, but it works in SSR situations, too.

I went through 91A school (combat medical specialist) at Ft. Sam Houston long ago. By the end of the class I could attend, triage and organize the evacuation of a (simulated) 8-casualty helicopter crash with artillery simulators going off and bullets whizzing overhead. I could start an IV in the back of a moving ambulance under black-out conditions.

The first time I actually needed the skills, a young lady had a grand mal seizure while talking to me, fell and split her head open on the stairs.

I completely froze. I had to talk myself through the process, "What do I do? What do I do? Uh.. primary survey. RABC." The minute I started acting, the freeze was over and all the training clicked in.

But no matter how real the Army had made it, my body knew I had only played before. I had to force my body to act so that the "low road" part of my brain could see that it worked. Then it relaxed and let me do my thing.

I may not have written this well.

Rory

[Stryke]

I really dont get this thread .

I understand the High Road vs Low road stuff .

I understand the dump vs no dump .

I understand gross motor vs fine motor .

now where in karate is anything fine motor ?

I find mechanis to be all about gross motor , to employ the most body and bang for your buck ... It is natural movement .

The chemical dump , I beleive trained or not , the majority of us will get it , It can be used or fought , but it will happen .

where is the high road application In MA , is anyone arguing that wristlocks , and pinky strikes etc will really work without the gross motor and low road responses ? .

or are we back to against the average person vs against the 3 percenter ?

I dont relate high road to the cognitive brain , I relate high road to an subconcious response , this kind of response to me is low road , non intellectual and learned instinct .

You dont choose technique , you make your body aware so it can intinctively and natuarally create it`s own technique . The only thing you need is emotional content , the low road again , the subconcious , the primal , the awareness of self .

I see time and time again people mistaking anger and rage and the dump for negatives , this is normal natural and productive , It`s when you dont understand these feelings you fight them , they cripple you , and lead to bad judgement .

the secrets not to control them , but understand them , let them do there job , feel a litle rush , let your body do it`s job , then you might just might , get a little close to that Mushin everyones fond off .

[MikeK]

But no matter how real the Army had made it, my body knew I had only played before. I had to force my body to act so that the "low road" part of my brain could see that it worked. Then it relaxed and let me do my thing.

I think that makes it clear.

You dont choose technique , you make your body aware so it can intinctively and natuarally create it`s own technique . The only thing you need is emotional content , the low road again , the subconcious , the primal , the awareness of self .

If I hear a noise in the house, grab a weapon and go investigate do I want to be led by emotion and the primal, or training and cognitive? There is a time and a place for both.

[Bill Glasheen]

Good stuff coming out here. I'm going to separate posts.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

Rory

Parts of your post really ring a bell with me, and it validates a theory I have about such situations. Maybe if nobody else has come up with the thought, I'll name the phenomenon myself.

Rather than super-analyze it and tell you about my theory, I will post three little pieces and let readers identify the pattern.

I went through 91A school (combat medical specialist) at Ft. Sam Houston long ago. By the end of the class I could attend, triage and organize the evacuation of a (simulated) 8-casualty helicopter crash with artillery simulators going off and bullets whizzing overhead. I could start an IV in the back of a moving ambulance under black-out conditions.

The first time I actually needed the skills, a young lady had a grand mal seizure while talking to me, fell and split her head open on the stairs.

I completely froze. I had to talk myself through the process, "What do I do? What do I do? Uh.. primary survey. RABC." The minute I started acting, the freeze was over and all the training clicked in.

It was late in the evening, and I needed to run quickly in to the U.Va. cardiology research lab to pick up something. So I parked my car in one of the spaces by Wilson Hall, and ran on in to Cobb Hall to pick up my item of interest. It was only going to be a minute...

While inside, I ran into one of the cardiology fellows doing some late-night data analysis on the computer. He had questions about how to run certain statistical procedures in BMDP. A few minutes turned into maybe 20...I don't know. Finally I got my stuff and went out.

When I approached my car again, I noted that someone was in the front seat doing something to my stereo. I immediately recognized what was going on. I notice some students are walking by behind me. I also note that there is a U.Va. emergency "blue phone" right by them. I stop them and say "Would you please watch me while I go do this?" They stop and oblige.

I approach the car. I get right up against the window, and then suddenly yell "WHAT ARE YOU DOING???" It had the desired effect. The person was momentarily startled from his task of taking my stereo out while calmly drinking from a bottle of Old Richard's wine.

After a second, he starts babbling some half-baked story. "Is you Joe? Is you Joe? Joe done me wrong, man. I'm trying to get back at Joe!"

More people approach. Another large gentlemen comes nearby. It was University Watch, and they also had noted the activity. The big gentleman and I immediately click. He already had called the police. I told him to lean on the passenger door, and I would do the same to the driver's door. The perp was sealed in. Or so we thought.

The perp then chooses to roll MY window down so he can escape. Big mistake. I reach in, grab him in a full Nelson, and drag him out the opened window. The other big fellow comes around, and we make a people sandwich with him. The guy can barely breathe. All he can do is curse at this other black gentleman for 'letting a brother down.'

The police come. We turn him over to them. By now this guy finally can move, and he is pi$$ed. He assaults one of the officers. They slam him against the car, and handcuff him. They search him, and find a six inch blade. They then throw him in the back of the Police cruiser, where he proceeds to pi$$ all over the back seat just to spite everyone.

Meanwhile... Within seconds after the other large gentleman and I release the perp, we suddenly BOTH start shaking from head to foot. They are big, uncontrollable shakes. I recognize the feeling (being a cardiology researcher) and don't panic. The other gentleman almost begins to panic. He sees me not worried, and calms down a bit. But we both keep shaking.

- Bill Glasheen

when I was doing research, I found that my dogs with a parasympathetic block (unleashes the sympathetic) had a higher heart-rate and blood pressure at rest than they did when I was running them on the treadmill.

- Bill

[Bill Glasheen]

I really dont get this thread .

I was beginning to wonder if maybe I was wasting bandwidth here. The fact that you don't get this thread, Marcus, makes me believe that I've succeeded in what I set out to accomplish here.

You may now call me schithead at any time, mate!

Perhaps what I posted for Rory might stimulate some more thoughts, Marcus. Meanwhile, I'll comment on a few of your comments just to get the neurons working a bit.

I find mechanis to be all about gross motor , to employ the most body and bang for your buck ... It is natural movement .

I more or less agree. If you tap into your real power, that's coming from the large muscle groups around the core. The arms and legs subsequently deliver the goods like a crack on the end of a whole-body whip.

The only issue here is precision of targeting, since neurohormonal stimulation tends to degrade complex motor coordination. But hit 'em hard enough, and the whole friggin body is a pressure point!

So no disagreement here!

[quote="Stryke""]
The chemical dump , I beleive trained or not , the majority of us will get it , It can be used or fought , but it will happen .

{snip}

The only thing you need is emotional content , the low road again , the subconcious , the primal , the awareness of self .

I see time and time again people mistaking anger and rage and the dump for negatives , this is normal natural and productive , It`s when you dont understand these feelings you fight them , they cripple you , and lead to bad judgement .

the secrets not to control them , but understand them , let them do there job , feel a litle rush , let your body do it`s job[/quote]
Emphasize "a little" and we agree, brother Marcus.

Once again, I will quote brother Darren.

So what is the "combat maximum performance range" when it comes to SSR and heart rate? In his studies, Siddle found that it is between 115-145 bpm. Siddle also found that a fighter’s "maximum reaction time performance range" is also between 115-145 bpm. In other words, the 115-145 bpm range is where fighting skills (gross motor) and reaction time are maximized.

- The Anatomy Of Fear and How It Relates To Survival Skills Training


In this particular neurohormonal state, gross motor is optimized. Complex and fine motor coordination have NOT gone away though. If so, then our LEOs would be in a big heap of trouble. It takes SOME fine motor coordination to aim a gun and pull a trigger.

More importantly, there is a just right amount of neurohormonal stimulation.

In medicine, we see cases all the time where a patient abuses a drug. If amount X will do me good, then amount 2X will be twice as good, right?

No, no, no!!!!!

Same thing here. As I've said many a time, people need to get this binary response thing out of their heads. There is an optimal neurohormonal state that we need for each and every task in our lives. Different situations require different responses. Even in fighting, different threats require different skill sets and different responses. And there's a big, big difference between a surprise attack and one that can be anticipated based on reading the situation well. (a.k.a. awareness) This particularly is where the high road kicks in.

The only issue here is congruence. We need to make sure that the motor skills taught (cortical or "high road" programming) are congruent with what the amygdala ("low road") will initiate (Somatic Reflex Potentiation) if the attack is sudden and unexpected. In other words, by the time the cortex finally gets the message and can evaluate the situation for further action, we want to be halfway done with something we're going to do anyways.

That motion MAY be gross motor leading to fine motor, BTW. It could mean withdraw, then pull out your gun and shoot the bastard. It could mean a step back with a sanchin-posting-like flinch, leading to contact with the forearms, leading to grabbing with the hands and doing your business. By then you are all high road; the flinch is gone. If you've done your homework and trained the right way, you'll probably be done with your business (subconscious as you suggested, but indeed quite possibly high road) before you get to admire your work.

Don't worry about my PMA; I'm also into proper visualization.

- Bill

[Van Canna]

Yes and No, Bill.

Perhaps some more gifted individuals will be more successful in implementing fine motor skills under survival conditions, but in general, even if they could, it would still remain a toss of the coin when suddenly up against the ‘deadly moment’ _

Combat is a deadly ‘affair’ and you want to lean to the ‘higher percentages’ of successful survival performance.

This is the lesson taught and driven home forcefully by Lethal force trainers, such as the world famous combat master and gunfights survivor, John Farnam, whom Maloney and I studied under.

It is ‘experts’ like him, that I find myself gravitating to in these discussions.

Fine Motor Skills vs. Gross Motor Skills

Men who play with guns have long been cognizant of an occurrence that men who play with knives are just beginning to understand; that is, in situations of great danger and stress, the fine motor skills practiced and learned in the safety of the gun range or martial arts dojo are negated by the body’s instinctive reactions to the threat at hand.

Adrenal stress will cause tunnel vision, Tachypsychia syndrome, and other involuntary physiological changes that override and eclipse everything but the grossest of motor skills.

In fact, that is exactly what law enforcement, military, and handgun aficionados have been focusing their training on all these years—gross motor skills.

Time and experience has taught them it is gross motor skills that remain in the fore when the body finds itself in a life-and-death struggle. This is the same lesson learned from the same teachers—time and experience—by the knife-wielders of Southern Europe and the Mediterranean.

I would rather ‘err’ on the side of caution and ‘combat experienced’ instruction in my training, as opposed to mostly speculation, or training that can lead you to lose your life in the kumite of the street.

It takes SOME fine motor coordination to aim a gun and pull a trigger.

LFI teaches that aiming a gun is a fine motor skill_ pulling the trigger is a gross motor skill.

The reason why police are taught going center mass, and not aiming for ‘less lethal’ body parts, such as shooting the arm that holds a knife, as some liberals claim police should do.

And even with this ‘gross motor’ training, police will miss three shots out of five at the closest ranges. Why?

A compelling reason why Lethal force trainers, insist in training you along instinctive body alarm reactions.

And try to remember what Tomoyose and other Okinawans used to say about American sparring competitors: You look like a couple of dogs fighting_ meaning lots of flailing, and no defined karate skills from the kata as we supposedly train and ‘know them’

Why is that?

And looking at some of the Okinawan matches, you see much of the same.


Think back to the first time you attended or participated in a martial arts tournament. Remember how astonished and disturbed you were by the absence of traditional dojo techniques on the tournament floor?

Why?

[Bill Glasheen]

LFI teaches that aiming a gun is a fine motor skill_ pulling the trigger is a gross motor skill.

You argue best when you argue my point, Van.

We can debate whether or not pulling a trigger is a gross vs. fine motor skill. It depends, and I have sources that will argue with you on this one. Pulling a trigger exactly when you mean to pull it IS a fine motor skill. Not having that under control is a reason for many accidental shootings under stress, and the reason for some manufacturers going for higher resistance triggers.

But we can leave that arguement behind for another thread. Indeed aiming a gun IS a fine motor AND a high road skill. The fact that it degrades - BUT DOES NOT ENTIRELY GO AWAY - is a reason to practice, practice, practice and to use targets that are smaller than real life. You program in the degredation in skills through tricks such as training, small targets, and going for center of mass. But you still are employing high road, no matter how hard you try otherwise. And more importantly, you still are relying on SOME fine motor coordination, or the BG shoots you before you shoot him.

The one who keeps his neurohormonal status under control best wins.

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it can't be done, nor does it mean we don't have to confront it anyway.

Hey, I had and still have a bad familial tremor, and it gets worse when I worry about what I'm doing or think someone is watching. But it didn't stop me from being one of the best laboratory open-heart surgeons at U.Va. when I was there. I just learned to anticipate it, understand it, and deal with it.

And try to remember what Tomoyose and other Okinawans used to say about American sparring competitors: You look like a couple of dogs fighting_ meaning lots of flailing, and no defined karate skills from the kata as we supposedly train and ‘know them’

Why is that?

Quite simply because - IMO - they sucked, Van. Period. End of story.

Sorry, I will not condone "bad technique" just because people think they can't have good technique when the SSR kicks in. Yes, FMC and GMC deteriorate. But training and keeping your SSR under control means you have the advantage, and your partner doesn't.

Once I was surprise attacked by someone who got emotionally hyjacked by what I said. They flailed at me, and got three hits in. Next thing I knew, they were sitting on their ass with their hands on their face. And why? Somewhere, somehow, something caused my fist to go STRAGHT IN to their nose. No gross motor flailing in big loops, Van. And I survived - in style - because my CMC and my training kicked in from years and years and years of doing a straight, right-up-the-middle thrust. And it happened before I knew I did it.

And that's the advantage we trained folks have over the flailers, Van. I know what they will do. They will attack in looping strikes, and the door is open right up the bloody middle. By shodan time, we ideally should have done a couple of tens of thousands of straight-up-the-middle thrusts.

I win. The flailer loses. End of game.

We acknowledge physiology, and respond accordingly. But we should be a master of it, and not a slave to it.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

This discussion is leading right into the training I'll be doing at my 'suumer camp' within the MCMAP:

The Instinctive Combat Shooting course is based on Applegate/Fairbairn shooting concepts combined with combative performance factors extracted from four decades of hoplological research conducted around the world. In essence, the ICS Instinctive Combat Shooting course combines point shooting techniques with combative performance movement and adversary training. Instruction includes classroom work in the principles of close combat with the handgun, and firearms training. Firearms training will include some live fire activities, but the majority of time is spent in adversary training. Training can be done indoors and/or outdoors. Dim light shooting will be introduced.

and...

"This is an integrated program that provides a rock solid foundation in combative capabilities for the armed professional, whether in high risk security, law enforcement, or the military. This course includes the core elements taught in the two-day ICS Core Combative Behavior and Performance Course, but expanded to more fully develop combative capabilities. The professional will learn to utilize those behaviors, postures, and movements that are most effective in dealing with a confrontation with adversaries whether at the verbal end of confrontation or in situations of extreme violence. This course is aimed at developing foundations of combative capability with a variety of weapons from empty-hands to firearms, including, the collapsible baton, short stick, handguns, carbine, and shotgun. Training in situational awareness will be emphasized, to develop the individual's ability to recognize levels of potential danger, visual recognition, combative assessment and decision making.

The CTAP course consists of both lecture and physical training. The lecture portions cover the theory and information necessary to develop functional combative capability. The physical training is aimed at developing posture and movement skills that optimize combative capability and are core to combat weapons use. The weapons training includes basic weapons safety and operation, but quickly moves to combative engagement skills. In this stage of the training, the emphasis is on training with one or more adversaries. Adversary training is utilized for all weapons from empty-hand to firearms. The student will learn to deal with adversaries armed with a variety of weapons from empty-hand to firearms."

plus...

"This course is geared towards the use-of-arms professional who realizes the need for the type of conditioning that goes beyond the fitness center and running track. Based on studies of the demands on the body and nervous system in combat, this course is aimed at establishing an understanding of how to address the special conditioning needs of combat, and includes experiencing a typical combat conditioning program."

and if time permits...

"The close combat rifle/carbine instruction again is similar to the shotgun course of instruction. Combative movement performance with the long arm will be covered as well as classroom work in the principles of close combat with the carbine or rifle. Basic tactical applications will be stressed, including dim light work. As with other firearms training, adversary training will be heavily stressed."

Sounds like fun eh?

Rich

[JimHawkins]

Perhaps some more gifted individuals will be more successful in implementing fine motor skills under survival conditions, but in general, even if they could, it would still remain a toss of the coin when suddenly up against the ‘deadly moment’ _

Hard to argue with this.

And I am not even sure which WCK tools is how much high road and how much low road. Hoping to look at that with you Van.

On the other side of the issue is Mindset. Based on what I see in the CMA I have to believe that many who used some of these very elaborate styles were able to stay high road. I don't think there is any other logical answer. These high tech and complex systems lasted for so long during feudal times one must conclude they were used and used with success. The question IMO in many cases then becomes: How did they stay high road?

There is an article in this month's Shaolin Kung Fu written by a German man, sHan Li (Chinese given name I guess) who has been studying under an Abbot Monk in a Shaolin Temple in China since 1998. He talks in his article about getting down to the core of the self, knowing one self, he writes:

Some of these people gave examples of very great strength in the way they spoke and seemed to have a natural superiority over even the strongest martial artists. I came to realize that this could not be a result of simply practicing forms or banging on a sandbag. Still, I had no clue how these people achieved such abilities, let alone how could I achieve them myself.

…They respected me for having stayed for so long, in seclusion from the outside world…

They showed me that the real difference, which they were the living examples of, lay in the way of the heart: cultivation, Buddhism…..

I have witnessed very convincing examples of people who have attained abilities that go far beyond the simple training of movements, far beyond throwing needles through glass, having your body lifted up by spears or breaking a pile of stones with your head.

In addition, no excuse was accepted [from anyone] for not showing up at training: illness, pain, injuries, throwing up, nothing could ever be serious enough to skip a training session.
I remember throwing up while exercising and still it was made clear to simply continue without complaining.

The punishment for being even slightly passive during training was simply to be ignored, and thus simply not receive any training for an unknown period of time.

In short he talks about perfection and knowledge of the self as being paramount and a prerequisite for conventional training. Is hardship and suffering in conjunction with a heavy does of introspection relevant to gaining control over one’s emotions and fears to the point of staying on the high road?

I guess a question is how and what is needed in the way of self perfection and self knowledge, if any, that might allow one to remain in control on the high road?

Is it possible that through this kind of mental training and hard physical training that these men found a way to transcend the limitations of the low road?

My Sifu once said to me with a big smile, “You know you guys training Wing Chun Do!” Knowing just what he meant, I asked, What must we do to train Wing Chun Chuan? He smiled wider and said, “This much harder, much harder training for this.”

[MikeK]

Definition time: Bill, Are you saying high road is cognitive, trained response that includes gross and fine motor skills?

I just want to be clear in my head that what we're discussing isn't gross vs fine motor control.

Sounds like fun eh?

It really does Rich.

[Van Canna]

And you argue best when you argue my point Bill.

Not having that under control is a reason for many accidental shootings under stress, and the reason for some manufacturers going for higher resistance triggers.

The reason why manufacturers are going to heavy triggers e.g., Glock NY trigger, is precisely because it is almost impossible to have the trigger under control under stress, in spite of training.

The fact that it degrades - BUT DOES NOT ENTIRELY GO AWAY - is a reason to practice, practice, practice and to use targets that are smaller than real life.

Sure you can train, but if you take lessons from a world class Lethal force instructor, such as Ayoob or Farnam, he will forbid you to try and take a shot at a felon’s leg or arm or any other small target, and he will prove the insanity of it under realistic scenarios.

You will do as you train, be careful.

Also ask why a good instructor will forbid you to put a 1911 in ‘battery’ by thumbing the slide release. Possible, but why won’t he let you?

Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it can't be done, nor does it mean we don't have to confront it anyway.

Sure, but to what end? You will mostly do, in the end, as the motor skills that remain in the fore when the body finds itself in a life-and-death struggle. And so you should train, to refine that response action.

This is what a good sensei or lethal force trainer will perpetuate in his training.

Quite simply because - IMO - they sucked, Van. Period. End of story.

Yeah.. But you don’t tell us why they sucked. After all they were trained, and ‘programmed ‘ so well in Uechi Ryu by so many good teachers. What went wrong? Did their teacher ****** too? Remember we are talking about pioneer teachers.

Sorry, I will not condone "bad technique" just because people think they can't have good technique when the SSR kicks in.

Not at all. LFI, for example, TEACHES THAT GROSS MOTOR skills are the good technique in survival situations.

A smart teacher will program you with the best ‘percentages’ there are.

But training and keeping your SSR under control means you have the advantage, and your partner doesn't.

Certainly, except for the fact that some of that training will ‘program’ you badly so that you will F@!@# up when you least expect it in the streets.

So why aren’t the lethal force trainers pushing the type of training you advocate?

What don’t they know that you know Bill?

The post by Rich, says it all.

As to your post, Jim, I think it is about definitions. Marcus brought this up when he mentioned that most, if not all Karate techniques appear to be of the ‘gross motor’ persuasion.

But then again, we cannot discount the genetic make up of some of the old masters, that made the ‘finer techniques’ work _ whatever ‘defines’ them, much like fighter pilots can. But not everyone will qualify for the job of a fighter pilot.

And Bill, you are fond of using yourself as an example of what makes things work.

You may well be the exception. Professional combat masters, such as John Farnam, are certainly the exception as well, but they know that even they, under the stress of a gunfight, will likely revert to primal instincts, and so they teach to their students.

It is all about higher percentages.

[Bill Glasheen]

At some point we start talking past each other, Van. It gets to where it appears from my end that you are engaging in strawman tactics. I do not take ownership of your characterizations of my views.

Let's back up a bit.

I'm going to respond to Mike. Then I have a whole host of errands to run. More later.

- Bill