Goju-Ryu Tensho form

[Bill Glasheen]

This is Morio Higaonna's teacher An'Ichi Miyagi, a student of Choju Miyagi doing Tensho:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2p8rmq9iv4

Difference due to ages and approach of the kata.

This is the closest to the way I would do it. My two most noticeable personal preferences (how I would do it differently) would be putting a little more caffeine in the coffee (somewhere in-between this and Chinen's performance) and moving the elbows more (more shoulder movement) in the upper wrist techniques.

The koi no shippo tatte uchi is the part I am the pickiest about. That's me... In my book, your wrists should draw a "+" sign, and not an inverted "T". Tatte means perpendicular. And IMO, the cross happens at the middle. It would take a 5 minute class (at least) for me to show why.

You should know, Jim Prouty, that this part of Tensho is both in our Kanchin kata and in Uechi Kanei's hojo undo. As Milton Berle used to say, "I know a good joke when I steal it."

Jim Hawkins

This may partially address your issues with "the center." One thing that bothers me about Chinen's performance is his lack of addressing the center line in his circles and his corkscrews back to sanchin.

In the end, each of the three masters shown has all the ingredients. But it's like listening to a symphony through a stereo. You've got to balance both the dynamic range and the tonal range. Otherwise it isn't everything that it could be.

It's a martial ART after all.

And I agree with Jim Prouty's assessment of the variations having something to do with age. However...

Tensho is a great example of where you can work on managing the Survival Stress Reflex while in the dojo. In a deadly force encounter you are going to be juiced (neurohormonal stimulation), and to some extent that is good. But you don't want to be so juiced that you lose some of the positive aspects of being relaxed, such as your complex motor coordination, your range of motion, or your ability to think rationally.

You see mild aspects of the "negatives" manifested at dan tests - as I have described above.

Balance is key. Being able to ride the tiger with style is what it's all about.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Bill Wrote:

This may partially address your issues with "the center." One thing that bothers me about Chinen's performance is his lack of addressing the center line in his circles and his corkscrews back to sanchin.

Yes, Senchusen (center line)! Is the key

Here is a performance from my collection of Yoshio Hichiya Sensei, current President of the Okinawan Goju Ryu Kyokai. He was a student of both Miyagi Sensei and Miyazato Sensei and is in his late 70's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MjTZPqVAno

You will note that his face is tense but no "popping blood vessels".

Enjoy!

Then I found this guy doing the kata and a friend added the music:

Chuckle time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCtxpI2TCmY

Here is the late Shogyo Kuniba of Motobu Ha Shito Ryu that does the Mabuni lineage Tensho w/ bunkai (at 1:32):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIkNqKxURs4

I had the great opportunity to train w/ Kuniba for a few years off & on before his death from cancer. Real nice man!

[JimHawkins]

I do not do them to the center.

It's like this... A great master once told me "Kata is kata; application is application." In other words, do your kata in the most general fashion possible so you can go the most number of different ways with it in your application.

Well I just don't know if I can agree..

I follow the idea that the moves in the forms should follow function. And this is consistent with the idea that as one learns and develops application the expression of the form changes a bit. When I do the forms of WCK I am trying to work the movements as I would in application.. Now there is no positional or energy reference in a form since there is no partner or opponent, so the position would be be generic but still very much within the range of realistic application.. In cases where a movement is done way off center, etc, it may have little meaning for me or connection to application.

Jim Hawkins

This may partially address your issues with "the center." One thing that bothers me about Chinen's performance is his lack of addressing the center line in his circles and his corkscrews back to sanchin.

In the end, each of the three masters shown has all the ingredients. But it's like listening to a symphony through a stereo. You've got to balance both the dynamic range and the tonal range. Otherwise it isn't everything that it could be.

It's a martial ART after all.

It's tough for me to watch the way some of it is done.. Since WCK has almost all the same or very similar movements, significant variation from what I think of as structurally sound makes me wince..

I had met a Goju guy a while back and had a chance to work out with him a few times and show him why I thought some of the positioning, etc was off--why structure should be more in front of the body, etc.. In the end he agreed on several points and actually made changes on the spot.

Some of the Uechi folks I have met have also said that several of the moves should be aimed at the center.. I was surprised how adamant they were but I agree whole heartedly.

In the end who is to say what is exactly correct? I have yet to see many folks applying lots of these intricate movements in actual sparring or fighting.. There is significant variation among masters and I have my own personal reference point in application..

Nevertheless, many will continue to follow what, so and so does, because he is so and so.. So be it, it makes for interesting discussions, sometimes....

[Glenn]

Bill,
Teruo Chinen tells us that our tensho descends from a female white crane instructor. Who knows?

The only thing known for certain is that Chokin Miyagi created the Goju Tensho kata. Reportedly it was based on other kata, and I believe he created it after one of his China trips, but the details of its origins seem to be lost in the mists of time.

[Kuma-de]

Bill,
Teruo Chinen tells us that our tensho descends from a female white crane instructor. Who knows?

The only thing known for certain is that Chokin Miyagi created the Goju Tensho kata. Reportedly it was based on other kata, and I believe he created it after one of his China trips, but the details of its origins seem to be lost in the mists of time.

Hi Glenn,

Chojun Miyagi made the kata from Rokugoikkishu kata (aka Rokkishu) as posted above. There are several other kata that are bandied about such as Happoren and Hachuko.

[Bill Glasheen]

I follow the idea that the moves in the forms should follow function.

I don't disagree.

And this is consistent with the idea that as one learns and develops application the expression of the form changes a bit.

Yes.... and no.

Remember, Jim, that a form like Sanchin is much, much more general and much simpler than a form like Sil Lim Tao. I've actually done all three: Uechi Sanchin, Goju Sanchin, and Sil Lim Tao. The latter form is much, much more literal. Meanwhile, Sanchin is the lowest common denominator of many moves.

The problem in Uechi kata with getting overly specific with what a move "means" is that it freezes your brain and you can't see what else it can be.

Karate kata in particular are filled with grappling moves. This is especially true of Uechi - a Ryu that absolutely is not a closed-fisted system. A seiken (proper) fist wasn't even in the original three. Study it long enough, and you see that it is about 50% striking and 50% grappling. Most moves actually have dual (yin/yang) meanings. I see this again, and again, and again..

Go-ju
Pan gai noon
Sometimes this, sometimes that

So yes... the form adapts and adjusts as applications come to mind. But the thoughtful fighter with a breadth of experience learns to make a move as generic as possible so that several applications come off the same move.

Hawk chases sparrow (in Sanseiryu, Seichin) comes to mind. I could spend a day showing you all the things you can do with that. Consequently when I do it, I try very hard to do it in the most general fashion so that I don't eliminate any of the many possibilities from the core movement.

I am not alone in this thinking, Jim. Most Okinawan masters I know of think this way.

Uechi Ryu isn't Wing Chun. Uechi Ryu can be expressed with Wing Chun principles and applications. I do it all the time. I love the stuff. But I wouldn't dare limit myself to that. I love the grappling aspects as well.

In the end who is to say what is exactly correct? I have yet to see many folks applying lots of these intricate movements in actual sparring or fighting..

I can't relate, Jim.

When I spar or fight now, I absolutely am the product of my training. I can't be anything but that.

You or others may not see my Uechi in what I do. But then maybe you're looking through your glasses. I don't limit my vision. (It comes with my ENTP personality.)

Nevertheless, many will continue to follow what, so and so does, because he is so and so..

If you've been following this discussion, you'll see that this absolutely isn't the case.

Jim Prouty has quite a run here showing the many different ways people are doing Tensho because of their ages and their stylistic preferences. And I would say that most of the people you're looking at here are tough hombres.

Mr. Prouty himself is the real deal. Get him to talk about his job some time. No theory there. Just cracking heads on the job.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

And this is consistent with the idea that as one learns and develops application the expression of the form changes a bit.

Remember, Jim, that a form like Sanchin is much, much more general and much simpler than a form like Sil Lim Tao. I've actually done all three: Uechi Sanchin, Goju Sanchin, and Sil Lim Tao. The latter form is much, much more literal. Meanwhile, Sanchin is the lowest common denominator of many moves.

The problem in Uechi kata with getting overly specific with what a move "means" is that it freezes your brain and you can't see what else it can be.

Hey you can certainly call it as you see it.. I may see things a little differently..

For me the tools are the tools.. Jut is jut, tan is tan, etc.. Now yes there can be more than one way to use tan but in the case of the first section of SLT I know what the form is 'saying' about tan in that particular part of the form, so I express the tan in that context.

I can agree that Sanchin is more simple but I wouldn't say all that much so--I mean look at the first section of SLT, pretty darn simple..

To me the nukite makes more sense, as a standard expression going to the center... Some Uechika perform it like that--and I was surprised to learn that.

Among all these different kata I can find just about every move or technique in WCK..

Karate kata in particular are filled with grappling moves. This is especially true of Uechi

Well I have my own opinion on these things too. I agree but it depends on what we mean by grappling.. Some kinds of grappling, other kinds I would say no. But of course you are entitled to your opinion..

A Ryu that absolutely is not a closed-fisted system. A seiken (proper) fist wasn't even in the original three. Study it long enough, and you see that it is about 50% striking and 50% grappling. Most moves actually have dual (yin/yang) meanings. I see this again, and again, and again..

Well it does have some fists right? The Shoken? What about Seisan? The bent over punching?

And the hard and soft to me represents a combining of elements, as we had briefly touched on in another thread, multiple hard and softs as one action..

So yes... the form adapts and adjusts as applications come to mind. But the thoughtful fighter with a breadth of experience learns to make a move as generic as possible so that several applications come off the same move.

I'm very generic in terms of form expression because there is no context for the tools and movements.. SLT is very much like: Here's tool A, and the energy that goes with it; here's tool B and the energy that goes with it, etc...

I am not alone in this thinking, Jim. Most Okinawan masters I know of think this way.

Mmmmm... Well saying the Masters think like you do is--an interesting thought...

Uechi Ryu isn't Wing Chun. Uechi Ryu can be expressed with Wing Chun principles and applications. I do it all the time. I love the stuff. But I wouldn't dare limit myself to that. I love the grappling aspects as well.

Depends on what kind of moves we are talking about.. Just because you can 'find' things that are similar in a form to something else doesn't necessarily mean they are the same--ink blots, etc.. You are known for finding almost anything in your kata Bill.. And I think that's fine but I want to also be free to see what I see, or not..

In the end who is to say what is exactly correct? I have yet to see many folks applying lots of these intricate movements in actual sparring or fighting..

I can't relate, Jim.

When I spar or fight now, I absolutely am the product of my training. I can't be anything but that.

That must be the case.. Still I have very, very rarely seen anyone from any of these styles (including WCK) using much or many of the more intricate moves in sparring..

Feel free to post a vid of anyone doing so...

Nevertheless, many will continue to follow what, so and so does, because he is so and so..

If you've been following this discussion, you'll see that this absolutely isn't the case.

Can't really agree.. Now I am not saying this is true for everyone but many TMA who train these systems do follow a particular line and/or master. They will say, oh, no, master so and so does it this way--in Okinowa they do it that way, master so and so keeps his pinky up--not down, etc., All this despite many using/having no personal reference point for many of these more obscure moves in fighting, just following the so and so says so and this goes for WCK too.

Jim Prouty has quite a run here showing the many different ways people are doing Tensho because of their ages and their stylistic preferences. And I would say that most of the people you're looking at here are tough hombres.

Mr. Prouty himself is the real deal. Get him to talk about his job some time. No theory there. Just cracking heads on the job.

I'm sure Jim is a bad ass..

But, I still say there are dozens of moves in all these systems that you won't see in sparring, that are not trained with inside resistance, or realistically trained at all, and that are almost never seen in actual fighting--and that goes for WCK too.

[Bill Glasheen]

Jim

I and others have had this discussion many times before. It goes on for a while, and quite often ends rather badly. So... Let me cut to the chase.

Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu are not defective Wing Chun. They are three distinct styles that share SOME common principles.

Rather than ask why we don't do things YOUR way, why not relax and enjoy the discussions?

To me the {Sanchin} nukite makes more sense, as a standard expression going to the center...

Fantastic!

Some Uechika perform it like that--and I was surprised to learn that.

I'm not surprised at all.

I as well did my Sanchin nukite to the center. Briefly. Somewhere around 3 decades ago. This was around about the time I taught myself Sil Lim Tao from J Yim Lee's book. Rad Smith, my first Uechi instructor and a very smart man (Harvard Magna Cum Laude), let me "play" with it like that for a while. He understood my desire to explore. Meanwhile, he kept doing Sanchin the way virtually everyone else has done it for a few centuries - with the thrusts going straight forward from the chamber position.

I changed back after about a year. Part of it had to do with exploring other martial systels like Goju, yang style tai chi, kobudo, and aikido. I began to broaden my martial base, and needed a way to tie everything together. Evolving back to a more "vanilla" Sanchin did the trick.

Part of it had to do with being taken under the wing by UVa's strength coach. He had just come off of his world heavyweight championship in power lifting, and subsequently was put in charge of developing the strength programs for all UVa varsity sports. He worked with me for the love of sports.

Coach Gamble wasn't too keen on "sport specific" weight training exercises that were fashionable at the time. His view was that you came to the weight room to get strong, and went to the practice field to play your sport. Since his "back to basics" approach, his views have now pretty much been adopted by all strength coaches. There is no football way of doing a bench press, squat, or power clean vs. a baseball player way or a martial arts way. We all train to be strong, to learn how to use our core effectively, and to develop essential synergy (strength coordination). We specialize on the "practice field."

Here's the thing, Jim. In both Uechi and Goju, attacks to the center line start right from the get-go in Seisan kata. The kata are very similar in the use of a kind of chain palm thrusting. (Uechika use their boshikens, while Gojuka use their palm heels.) So we go there. But Sanchin and Tensho are strictly vanilla. And the reasons become much more apparent in more advanced kata when you see arm extension moves that have absolutely nothing to do with "punching" something.

Among all these different kata I can find just about every move or technique in WCK..

To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. (I didn't make that saying up.) You should see what you see.

Meanwhile, Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu have more than hammers in their tool kits. If not, then we'd all quit and go practice Wing Chun, wouldn't we?

Every style has an identity. Each has a unique approach. None of the approaches are "wrong." They are just different.

Karate kata in particular are filled with grappling moves. This is especially true of Uechi

Well I have my own opinion on these things too. I agree but it depends on what we mean by grappling..

Absolutely.

You won't find the specialized, BJJ-style grappling in Uechi Ryu or Goju Ryu with the intent of spending long periods of time with a single partner inside a sport cage.

Uechi, Goju, old style Japanese jiujitsu, etc., are basically battlefield styles. They are designed to be used in a broad range of scenarios, and not necessarily against a single opponent. With a need for flexibility comes a need to practice in a general way, with an ability to specialize as desired.

A Ryu that absolutely is not a closed-fisted system. A seiken (proper) fist wasn't even in the original three. Study it long enough, and you see that it is about 50% striking and 50% grappling. Most moves actually have dual (yin/yang) meanings. I see this again, and again, and again..

Well it does have some fists right? The Shoken? What about Seisan? The bent over punching?

Excellent point.

• I repeat - there are no "punches" in Kanbun's style. They were introduced to the style by Kanei when the system was transplanted to Okinawa. And we hang American flags up in our dojos.
• The "bent over" motions are done with shoken hands. They are not "punches." The first one is a shoken poke (nuki). The next two have absolutely nothing to do with what is going on IN FRONT of you. But you have to study the kata a bit longer to see that. In that section of the kata, you are facing anywhere between 2 to 5 opponents at the same time. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

For what it's worth, Jim, I've had some pretty extended conversations with Patrick McCarthy about this. You may be familiar with him. He published what is probably the best known English translation of The Bubishi.

Patrick and I see eye to eye on this. And if you take any of Patrick's seminars, he has a wonderful way of teaching people how basically to arrive at the same conclusions that many choreographers of our own kata (of many styles) arrived at. Check him out when/if you get a chance. He is a wealth of martial knowledge, and has a wonderfully open and inquisitive mind.

I still say there are dozens of moves in all these systems that you won't see in sparring, that are not trained with inside resistance, or realistically trained at all, and that are almost never seen in actual fighting--and that goes for WCK too.

I don't train kata to learn how to spar. That is a sport. Been there, done that. I've thrown most of the trophies away.

Sparring is a tool. It is a means to an end. It isn't an end unto itself. It's a fairly narrow application of martial systems in a highly controlled environment.

For the most part, I understand pretty much what every move is in Uechi Ryu. I can't say the same for Goju, but then I didn't study it long enough. The only surprises for me come when I make yet another link in-between something I find useful and something I do in my kata. These are the moments that I live for.

I don't worry so much about what I don't know. That's what gets me out of bed in the morning.

- Bill

[JimHawkins]

I and others have had this discussion many times before. It goes on for a while, and quite often ends rather badly. So... Let me cut to the chase.

Well you sure did get it there quick..

Rather than ask why we don't do things YOUR way, why not relax and enjoy the discussions?

Actually, I asked structural questions relating to the center..

Jim seemed to make some comments that center was important.. Might be an interesting discussion in reality but perhaps not here..

Forgive my participation, I guess it's too threatening, and for my tastes this has become just a bit too pathetic..

L8tr

[jorvik]

Quote
"Chojun Miyagi made the kata from Rokugoikkishu kata (aka Rokkishu) as posted above. There are several other kata that are bandied about such as Happoren and Hachuko."

Where did Rokkishu come from?.is it a Goju form

[Kuma-de]

Quote
"Chojun Miyagi made the kata from Rokugoikkishu kata (aka Rokkishu) as posted above. There are several other kata that are bandied about such as Happoren and Hachuko."

Where did Rokkishu come from?.is it a Goju form

Miyagi's good friend was a Chinese merchant that lived in Okinawa named Gokenki. It is from this master of Fujian White Crane kata that Miyagi, Mabuni and others learned their white crane.

Gokenki traveled with Miyagi on one of his several trips to the Fujian province.

Master Wu Xian Gui (Go Kenki)
Kenwa Mabuni in the background left

[jorvik]

Thanks Jim

[Kuma-de]

Jim Hawkins wrote:

Jim seemed to make some comments that center was important.. Might be an interesting discussion in reality but perhaps not here..

Forgive my participation, I guess it's too threatening, and for my tastes this has become just a bit too pathetic..

Centerline is important to all karate techniques, however as we all know angling is important too. A full understanding of one's own body mechanics come into play.

People of shorter, stockier body size often do not appear to have their technique come to the centerline as opposed to someone of larger frame. This is basically due to the fact that their blocks are performed closer to the body. (Reach is an important fact in many types of pugilism)

Why are you threatening?

[Bill Glasheen]

Mr. Prouty

Are you aware of the Uechi-related orlal history of Mr. Gokenki? Such a small world...



If that's what I'm thinking, I learned that crane form about two decades ago. I believe it's the same one that Kimo Wall was doing at our camp.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Mr. Prouty

Are you aware of the Uechi-related orlal history of Mr. Gokenki? Such a small world...



If that's what I'm thinking, I learned that crane form about two decades ago. I believe it's the same one that Kimo Wall was doing at our camp.

- Bill

Yes Bill, I believe that it is Hakkucho Kata seen and I am aware of the Gokenki & Uechi connection.

Good stuff! Neh?