What keeps women off these forums?

[Stryke]

deleted by choice

look in the mirror

[JimHawkins]

Look at this thread and who is posting on it..

The same folks who always post, not many, a handful of men and a couple of women... And a very similar ratio I have seen men/women in most dojo... Hmmm..

You could eliminate any so called sexist topics and discussion and IMO the same handful of men and couple of women would still be the same old posters..

If any of these phantom women felt strongly about this topic they would post on it--are they?

This topic IMO is a Red Herring...

Most folks don't post.. They read. This will never change regardless of how "sterile" a “forum environment” is created, which would probably result in simply less folks posting and reading the forums...

What keeps women off these forums?

Answer: They do...

[Dana Sheets]

When you encounter the type of negative post you described, why not call the poster on it?

I have no interest in being a filter for these forums. That is the collective role of all the moderators and all already do so in slightly different ways.

As for this topic being a red herring - anecdotes are anecdotes. I just wrote on another thread on my forum about a long held, widely held belief about self-esteem that proved to be completely wrong in a research setting. Sometimes what we think we know doesn't hold up to quantitative study.

So the reasons I listed in my first post may not be the barriers that keep women off these forums. Could be lots of stuff that doesn't make for good discussion like a lack of time, limited access to internet, lack of interest, women who do Uechi just want to train it and don't want to talk about it...etc. There's simply no way to know for sure without knuckling down and doing some kind of study which is not likely to ever happen.

Some of the women over on one of the forums that Mike posted used to post here on a regular basis. That forum is particularly active and I'm glad Mike shared it. I plan to lurk over there and see what the traffic, mood and tone of that forum is compared to ours. Hope to learn a few things as well.

I wish I knew the overall population of Uechika and how they spend their time on the internet, I wish I knew if the number of Uechika who read these forums goes up or down, I wish I knew why lots of things happen.

However, I don't know for certain why few women post here. There did used to be a few more women who would drop by and post on a more regular basis. Maybe I scared them away myself or drove them away with my views or how I posted. Maybe they moved closer to something else in their life which drew them away from here.

**shrug**

However, lacking a critical mass of women to discuss women's issues in training is definitely a limitation to varied dialogue.

[MikeK]

Glad I was of some assistance Dana. I was really surprised by the results of my two searches, that women are rare on most forums. Martial Talk was the exception and I did find the range of topics interesting.

[Valkenar]

that’s a strong word; hatred of women is not really accurate for any thread I’ve ever read on these forums.

I don't think that the men here really hate women in a literal sense. Then again, that's not a requirement for a hateful atmosphere.

Consider these quotes from the Ideal Woman thread.

If you are not familiar with Tom Leykis or Leykis 101 perhaps you want to be (blowmeuptom.com). The guy has a misogynistic radio show that is taking the southwest by storm. Very popular.

Is this suggesting you want to be familiar with a misogynistic radio show because you're opposed to misogyny? That's not how it came across.

Here's a few more:

Always date a woman with low self esteem - one who will do what YOU want when you want.
...
Never say I love you to a woman.
...
women are all gold diggers and attention whores -

Or:

HA HA

American women!!!

Etc.

If these aren't hateful statements, then I've never heard a hateful statement in my life.

your ideals ARE the ideals presented in that thread.

Yes, but I only get involved in a tiny fraction of the posts that I would say are mildly to significantly demeaning to women, as I see it. Now how women feel about it, I don't know in every case, but I'm fairly sure that I'm not totally off-base about what's offensive and what isn't. At least in my social circle.

Van:

Why is it that what you write always puts me to sleep?

In the other thread you said "What you write is good for introspection and must be considered."

Bill:

For the same reason that men's magazines have pictures of women on them, and women's magazines have pictures of... women on them.

And what do you believe is the reason for this? Surely you're not saying that women aren't interested in discussing the ideal man with each other?

Jim:

If any of these phantom women felt strongly about this topic they would post on it--are they?

That's really not true. Just because someone feel strongly doesn't mean they're going to spend the time rebutting an argument in what in a hostile environment. If you're not a person who likes debate for the sake of debate, then there's no incentive to voice a contrary opinion if you don't think it's going to do any good.

[Bill Glasheen]

For the same reason that men's magazines have pictures of women on them, and women's magazines have pictures of... women on them.

And what do you believe is the reason for this? Surely you're not saying that women aren't interested in discussing the ideal man with each other?

And surely you would be right, Justin.

This is like the research showing how men vs. women give and follow directions. Men on average use orientation, while women on average use features. There's compelling supplemental research to bolster this. Both successfully get from Point A to Point B. However, each gets there in a unique way that draws from their respective strengths and avoids their respective weaknesses. As long as we think of an issue from an isolated perspective here, the other side will not "get it."

On the issue of education, my second son was a classic. I was told by a daycare teacher that number 2 son had "issues", and that this daycare teacher had "solved" them by putting her son on Ritalin. That's what's going on now at an alarming rate. Public school teachers get upset that their boys won't sit quietly like the girls, and they make noise. One "expert" leads to another, and the next thing you know you have an epidemic of "ADHD" diagnoses (as if it was a new disease), and an alarming number of male children on stimulants. But wait... Now we know that boys need more recess. They need to find an outlet for all that excessive energy. When they are given such an environment, SURPISE - they excel. Duh!!!!

The difference between me and the next parent is that I am a scientist. I know the difference between "expert opinion" and "evidence based." I resisted the label and the drugs.

Subsequently number 2 son was tested for school, and the psychologist told us he had "below average" IQ and could not come to that school. I wasn't told the truth - that my son refused to take the test, stated crying, and asked to get out. Instructions for the WIPSII III test clearly state that psychologist should bring parent in under those circumstances. She didn't. She assumed noncompliance meant lack of intelligence. She trashed him. When I confronted the administrators, I got the "I know what I'm talking about, and you're an idiot" look.

Meanwhile... Number 2 son now finished first grade. He was tested and found to be in the upper 90th percentile in every achievement category. He subsequently was given a WISK test, and found to have an exceptional IQ. The fact that I am an active parent (I know my son) combined with my questioning conventional wisdom allowed me to work my way through the morass of what the experts were telling me.

This is no different for women. Recognizing differences and allowing boys to be boys and girls to be girls does not equate to misogyny.

Yes, bad behavior happens on these forums. I get called all the time on it - being human as I am. But seeking causality in all of what goes on here can be a murky business at best.

One of the links to a women's forum that Mike sent me to was quite interesting. I felt almost a bit voyeuristic peering in on a conversation of girls having girl talk about showing cleavage. No such conversation could have happened with men butting in. The women in this particular thread could only open up in their own environment. Yes, women talk. Yes, women do stuff. Yes, women think stuff. But they have their own way of doing it. Suggesting that they think, act, and do things the same way as men (what you are implying with your question) is wrong IMO. I’ve provided some literature to back it up.

Should we be upset that women chose to talk privately with Dana in their own personal forum about their own issues? Should we be concerned that they don’t “speak up” in every venue men might? I don’t have a problem with it. They found a way to achieve an end. The outcome speaks for itself.

Understanding differences and how to take advantage of them is very important. For a good discussion on the subject, see Covey's The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People. One anecdote in business... I'm involved in writing about and benchmarking an evidence-based medicine software product. I've had a chance to work with the staff who put it together. They are almost all women. Whenever I go to "quality" conferences in the medical field, I expect to be surrounded by estrogen. It is what it is.

Do we all need a little bit of "schooling" on the subject? Absolutely - especially the experts.

- Bill

[Mary Chant]

Hello, all.

I regularly visit the forums and have my favorites that I like to peruse. About 70% of the threads I read involve topics about which I know very little, such as reality based tactics, advance technique discussions, bio-mechanics, etc., so I have not developed an opinion one way or another.

Fifteen to 20% of the topics I read are what I term value based, those that tackle issues not directly or easily connected to self defense or martial arts. I expect to and often do come across ways of thinking different than my own in these forums. Sometimes I change my mind after reading them; frequently I don't (just being honest). I find many of these threads to be conducted in a respectful manner in articulating their views, and I even find this to be so in those that are diametrically opposed to my own.

And, 5-10% of the threads I see I don't even understand how they fit in a particular forum or on this site. I fully understand Moderator's Choice, and am not arguing the rights of the moderator to include them. Still, I don't understand how some threads relate in any sense to a particular forum's title or label. And it is generally within this group that I find threads that offend me (though, to be clear, that is not to say all offend me, just that they generally come from this segment).

So, having said all of that, I usually do not post for one of the following reasons:

1) I am not well-schooled enough on the specific topic to offer input on the level I deem appropriate, and just providing opinion or anecdotal personal experience does not seem to be the direction of the thread;
2) I am not interested enough in the topic to offer anything, or do not want to engage for the duration of the thread and believe a one-time post would be irresponsible in the discussion; or finally,
3) I do find the thread, or the direction the thread has taken, offensive. Finding a thread offensive is in and of itself, not generally sufficient to keep me from posting. The additional factors would be that in my personal assessment: a) the posts are baiting, b) the posts include demeaning comments made towards persons, whether groups or individuals, that are supported by the majority of other contributors, c) there seems to be no genuine interest in discussion, just in posting a series of monologues, and d) dissenting posters (the individual, not the thought) are maligned or dismissed.

So, FWIW, the above is the opinion of one person.

Mary

[Van Canna]

Justin,

What I am saying is that everytime I see your posts it is like someone just gave me a sleeping pill.

[Dana Sheets]

What about generational and cultural perceptions? In TV land what is considered to be obscene and/or lascivious is based on the nebulous idea of "community standards." Now the community of New York City varies quite a bit from the community of Bern, Indiana - and those community values are quite different.
Our Uechi forum community isn't very homogeneous at all.

Van's mentioned his Italian background as something that he perceives gives him a different perspective of the manner in which it is OK to dialogue about women.

Justin has mentioned his social circle as a group that he perceives has having shared values of the manner in which it is OK to dialogue about women and that Van's manner is incompatible with his manner.

(Oy - English can be annoying when you're trying to make a point)

These two men differ by age and come from places that are thousands of miles apart. It doesn't surprise me at all that they have differing views.

It wouldn't surprise me if some European women and some US women have differing views if they came from different places and were different ages.

What does bother me...

(and now please note that I'm expressing my very own subjective opinion of a sample of one and a single point of data doesn't make a trend)

is the idea that somehow either of these men, or any other men or women on these forums claim to know what is going on in the minds of people they've never met or only met via the internet.

I opened up this thread basically as a follow-up to the thread on bias in the dojo. We bring with us, each of us, quite a bit of baggage about that we think about other people, issues in general, and why certain things are OK and certain things aren't. And that's fine and dandy - it is how we live.

However I get concerned when people hold up their personal opinions as facts, their individual experiences as categorical explanations for anything, and their perspective as superior to someone else's.

And actually Van just used a wonderful word for our collective foum decorum over on his Sonnon thread. He used the word "TACT".

I think we all agree the forums should be tactful - however, because of our diverse backgrounds and experiences - we all seem to be defining "tact" differently.

I'm not offering any answers here - I'm not sure any exist. I think this has been a great discussion so far and I thank everyone that's contributed on and offline.

[Van Canna]

Good post Dana.

To each his own.

[-Metablade-]

With respect to the Dojo, my philosophy has always been rather straightforward:
We are there to learn and engage. We are students, all of us.
That said, there are those men whom with I have trained with over the years that, when faced with training with women, will many times "go easy" on them, or not give 100% during sparing, or even, letting them win.
I have always taught and argued: WHY treat women differently?
You must think of your opponent not as a man or a woman but as simply an opponent.
To give 100% earnest sincere effort to your partner(opponent) is to honor yourself and your opponent.
To do anything less is to show disrespect to everything you are working for. Besides, it has been my experience that woman can, will, and in some cases attack harder and more ferocious than some men. Most women will not "go easy" on their opponents, so why should men?
To me, that is true equality. Everyone equal in the eyes of Sensei.
The same should exist in public, and in business.

[Valkenar]

What does bother me
...
is the idea that somehow either of these men, or any other men or women on these forums claim to know what is going on in the minds of people they've never met or only met via the internet.

I agree that it's important to recognize that our understanding of another poster's thought process is certainly incomplete (and probably seriously deficient), but there's also an extent to which it's not possible to understand and respond to a post without taking into account your conception of what is going on in the mind of the poster. You can always ask for clarification, but it's not much of a discussion if the whole thread is spent asking "what do you mean by that" until the original poster gets tired of it.

In general, I often find difficult to tread the line between framing an argument in a way that acknowledges the limitations of my own viewpoint and wrapping it in so many equivocations and caveats that the point is totally lost. Perhaps as a professional writer you can tell me a better way to handle this dilemma than what I'm currently doing.

[Van Canna]

Dana

It wouldn't surprise me if some European women and some US women have differing views if they came from different places and were different ages.

I was going to keep the following letter on my forum, but since you mention the above, which is, BTW_ right on, I will post it here as well.

Here is a Latin/European woman with different views

Hello I am a Latin/ European woman.
I am a doctor (MD) I speak 3 languages and drive a great car. So don’t think I am a poor _ scheming _ gold digger.

I suggest that you North American men and women equally, stop thinking you’re the best thing that ever happened to this planet (because most of the world don’t even like you, the world thinks you are airheads and have no real culture) and start learning and getting yourselves educated in the ways of the world and in the way of men women relationships.

Europe is filled with beautiful cities rich in culture and history, museums, with educated people, some of the best levels of education in the world, great night life, gorgeous women and men, etc.

As for women, it is true that we are not ashamed of our sexuality and most European and Latin women are very sexy, but as sophisticated men tell it, we know HOW to be sexy with class and style_ when American women want to be sexy they are sluttish, by the way they dress and act.
They don’t know the difference between these two terms.

In Europe sexuality is the essence of man-woman relationships. In North America it’s all behind closed doors, and any reference to it, causes great angst, and put down feelings.

You go to Europe and women are openly affectionate and sexual. They don't hide, or feel threatened by their desires like the women do in North America.

In America, you'll get bombarded with reverse female logic and hypocrisy.

I've been contemplating why American women do this. And I'm thinking it's because... women are helpless. Women are helpless in a man’s world. Men build their houses, build their trains, and build factories to process foods, build supermarkets, you name it and men build it.

What would women do without men? Men build society, and men own society. Men making more money then women in almost the same job function is one example of this.

Women retaliate instinctively. They probably don't even know it. They justify there actions with the likes of:
Men only think about sex
Men don't know romance
Men this men that
Blah blah blah

Now _Why do American men want foreign wives? Most of the personal reports from American men who have married foreign women talk about "traditional values." That is, those American women are not content to be wives and mothers, but seek personal satisfaction through their own careers and interests, while the foreign woman is happy to be the homemaker and asks for nothing more than husband, home, and family.

In America, 50% of all marriages end in divorce.

Basically, there are American men who are good moral, faithful and caring but don’t have the European sports car and the bottomless wallet, so they miss out.

Not anymore. Now there’s some woman in Columbia, as an example, that is drop-dead gorgeous that would jump at the chance to marry an American man. And 99.9% of the time, there’s no divorce and no problems. Big Surprise huh? American women have a false sense of entitlement. That’s their biggest problem.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[JimHawkins]

Hello I am a Latin/ European woman.
I am a doctor (MD) I speak 3 languages and drive a great car. So don’t think I am a poor _ scheming _ gold digger.

I suggest that you North American men and women equally, stop thinking you’re the best thing that ever happened to this planet (because most of the world don’t even like you, the world thinks you are airheads and have no real culture) and start learning and getting yourselves educated in the ways of the world and in the way of men women relationships.

Europe is filled with beautiful cities rich in culture and history, museums, with educated people, some of the best levels of education in the world, great night life, gorgeous women and men, etc.

As for women, it is true that we are not ashamed of our sexuality and most European and Latin women are very sexy, but as sophisticated men tell it, we know HOW to be sexy with class and style_ when American women want to be sexy they are sluttish, by the way they dress and act.
They don’t know the difference between these two terms.

In Europe sexuality is the essence of man-woman relationships. In North America it’s all behind closed doors, and any reference to it, causes great angst, and put down feelings.

You go to Europe and women are openly affectionate and sexual. They don't hide, or feel threatened by their desires like the women do in North America.

In America, you'll get bombarded with reverse female logic and hypocrisy.

I've been contemplating why American women do this. And I'm thinking it's because... women are helpless. Women are helpless in a man’s world. Men build their houses, build their trains, and build factories to process foods, build supermarkets, you name it and men build it.

What would women do without men? Men build society, and men own society. Men making more money then women in almost the same job function is one example of this.

Women retaliate instinctively. They probably don't even know it. They justify there actions with the likes of:
Men only think about sex
Men don't know romance
Men this men that
Blah blah blah

Now _Why do American men want foreign wives? Most of the personal reports from American men who have married foreign women talk about "traditional values." That is, those American women are not content to be wives and mothers, but seek personal satisfaction through their own careers and interests, while the foreign woman is happy to be the homemaker and asks for nothing more than husband, home, and family.

In America, 50% of all marriages end in divorce.

Basically, there are American men who are good moral, faithful and caring but don’t have the European sports car and the bottomless wallet, so they miss out.

Not anymore. Now there’s some woman in Columbia, as an example, that is drop-dead gorgeous that would jump at the chance to marry an American man. And 99.9% of the time, there’s no divorce and no problems. Big Surprise huh? American women have a false sense of entitlement. That’s their biggest problem.

That was fantastic, and an attitude I have found prevalent among many women from abroad...

Gotta love 'em...

And while many American men might seek out such women, I find even some American men are "uncomfortable" with this kind of feminine sensual freedom, true feminism—they’re loss.

[fivedragons]

Justin, let me help out with one of the quotes you brought over from the other thread.

"American women!!!

Yayyyy!!!!!!!!!"

The Garden of Eden was a desert before I found Eve, and she found me.

I could go on and on that manner for twenty pages or so, but really, what more can I say?

I'm not a misogynist, dude. I'm just crazy.