Goju-Ryu Tensho form

[miked]

Bill, Mr. Prouty, Mr. Hawkins, et al.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom, opinions and experience concerning Tensho and breathing. I had pretty much dismissed the "folk tales" about Goju breathing techniques leading to strokes but I wanted to be sure since I am one of those individuals who does take BP medication.

Before I incorporated the practice of the form, I needed to be sure I wasn't putting myself in danger. The performance by Master Chinen appears to be "over the top" but hey, he has been doing this for decades and, apparently, has suffered no ill effects from the practice.

The other clips were instructive as they represented a spectrum of performance to which anyone could easily adapt.

Bill, I do wish to attend this year's summer camp, thus, I will take you up on your offer to work with me on Tensho - Imagine the faces of the kyu ranks when they see the instruction, thinking that they will have to learn it for promotion within Uechi - We'll have to put on an "over-the-top" performance just to make people squirm

Additionally, your explanation on breath, muscular contraction and BP was outstanding and intelligible (unlike those provided by typical Ph. D'.s and MD's).

Mr. Hawkins appropriately raised the issue of center line techniques. In my own experience, Uechi-ryu practitioners do not typically execute Sanchin strikes to the direct center. The target is typically just about where the index finger is targeted in line with the nipple. It appeared to me, that Mr. Chinen's performance demonstrated a punching target at lower than optimal striking height. To my Uechi eyes, the angle seemed "off".

Mr. Prouty, thank you for the delineation of the distinct breathing techniques to be found within the kata. This will be quite helpful to my own practice!

Max, my understanding is that Tensho develops the "hard" aspect of Goju not the soft aspect. I believe that advanced practitioners of the system would agree with this contention. Apparently, the breathing techniques develop an internal hardness as has been explained by Mr. Glasheen and Mr Prouty.

As to the origins of the form, who is to say? Legend is not fact. It is a fact that Goju and Uechi share a common heritage, including the relationship with Go-Ken-Ki. which is no surprise to anyone who is familiar with both arts, Obviously, this relationship influenced the development of both systems along similar paths.

All the best,

Mike DeDonato
mjdcgb@ca.rr.com
www.uechi-la.org
310 710-6334

[cxt]

For what its worth in terms of POV.

As a goju-ka I have seen both---- "centerline" strikes in both Sanchin and Seisan, also done "stright" from the chamber.

Then again I have also seen goju-ka do Sanchin and Seisan with open hands as well.

Different target areas as well.
Some were low enough to nearly be groin strikes---if one assumes that it was launched from a lower sanchin-like posture.

Same people mind you---just different manners of doing it on different days and with presumably different applications.

As a realitve "newbie" I thought that there was only one "right" or "best" way to do things.
20 years later, I am now of the opinion that there are many different, equally effective methods/approachs to get to the same spot...more or less.

I think its important that that people explore other methods----you might find something useful--or you might just find that for you, what you already do, works best.

[Kuma-de]

Mr. Prouty

Are you aware of the Uechi-related orlal history of Mr. Gokenki? Such a small world...



If that's what I'm thinking, I learned that crane form about two decades ago. I believe it's the same one that Kimo Wall was doing at our camp.

- Bill

Gokenki's influence on Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu and Shorin Ryu (Matayoshi Shimpo):

"In 1937, Shinpo Sensei's father also introduced him to the open hand system of Hakaku Kempo, which he learned from Gokenki Sensei. Although Shinpo Sensei would have various instructors throughout his life, his father remained his life-long instructor and mentor." Source:

http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/matayoshi_kobudo.htm

Here is Matayoshi Sensei performing a Kingai Ryu kata:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89_cUe-Sjkk

[Bill Glasheen]

Holy Cow! How come Patrick didn't show me this stuff when he came to visit???

Wow!!! Talk about seing the Uechi origins of Goju Ryu... Notice how Goju-like the form is, and yet everything is open-handed as in Uechi Ryu. Did you get the feeling like this was a cross between your Seiunchin, Seisan, and Suparinpei, but with the old-style Uechi hands? This is definitely drinking from the same fountain of knowledge.

I so have to learn this form... I can get all the gross-motor stuff from the film, but it's difficult to see all the hand detail. Funny... I believe that was the same criticism either Patrick or another friend of mine had about my Fuzhou Suparinpei video...

One last comment... The guy performing that form is REALLY good. God would I love to work with him...

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

Bill typed:

One last comment... The guy performing that form is REALLY good. God would I love to work with him...

Keep praying Bill. Matayoshi Sensei went to the big Dojo in the sky a few years back.

If you can't wait that long or feel that you have other after life destinations forthcoming , I may know a few folks that can teach it to you!!

[jorvik]

Nice form
that could be Uechi's missing fourth kata .certainly looks like it
I've heard of Kingai ryu but never seen it........regarding using the centreline for punching or striking, that is a fundamental of Shao-Lin ( I was told this by a Shaolin/whitecrane/Tai-chi expert....it surprises me when I see karate folks punching from the hip to the centre, the shao lin I have seen brings the fist into the centre first and then punches along the centreline........Wing-Chun shortens this distance.but still uses this principle
and again to echo what Jim said.every move has a purpose and yeah sure you can use a screwdriver to open a tin of paint.but it's not what it was intended for, and if you do that then the folks that know how to use the screwdriver will raise their eyebrows.............and the ones who like you might just take you into a corner and let you know what you are doing wrong
As to White crane I've heard various things about it...........I believe in Taiwan that Crane sometimes passes for Tai-Chi, and vice versa....crane certainly crops up a lot in many styles Hung gar, Tai-chi, wing-chun..the hard breathing ala goju ( I have heard ) is to pack your Qi..but it is a soft technique because it develops Qi.I have seen hard Qi-Kung, which is surprisingly soft..........softer than Goju breathing............but who knows

[Bill Glasheen]

sure you can use a screwdriver to open a tin of paint.but it's not what it was intended for, and if you do that then the folks that know how to use the screwdriver will raise their eyebrows.............and the ones who like you might just take you into a corner and let you know what you are doing wrong

Some people are just lacking imagination, Ray.



- Bill

[jorvik]

Enjoy your scewdriver Bill

[harlan]

If you folks don't my mind asking a belated aside in this thread?

Does ANYone, ANYwhere have an idea of who IS teaching Kingai ryu???

Thank you.

Narda

[Kuma-de]

If you folks don't my mind asking a belated aside in this thread?

Does ANYone, ANYwhere have an idea of who IS teaching Kingai ryu???

Thank you.

Narda

Narda,

Wuz up? Ever hear of Kimo Wall Sensei??

::nudge:: ::nudge::

http://www.kodokanboston.org/karate_history.html

[harlan]

Thanks for the pointer...it hasn't been mentioned in training, or on the websites...and I didn't want to ass-ume.

http://www.kimowall.netfirms.com/

[maxwell ainley]

Miked,

Every one appears to have a different conception of hard and soft ,and as you say the advanced practioners say its a hard developer ,the breathing as pointed out does appear strained ,and makes the muscle work appear harder work than it actually would be under more normal breathing .
You could develop very hard by slowing down much more ,the practioner is moving somewere in between what I would call a slow dynamic tension movement and a medium speed motion ,there is hellava lot of softness present to do that ,no softness no movement .

[Bill Glasheen]

OK... I have a question for the fans of Fuzhou and Naha region martial arts. We all are more or less on the same page.

Watch Matayoshi Sensei do his Kingai Ryu form. Just for information purposes, Kingai Ryu is thought by some to be the antecedent of modern Goju Ryu. (It most definitely looks like it.)

.......... Kingai Ryu

Check out the Sanchin nukite thrusts. Note how they are more like a boxer's jab.

• Miyagi and company changed the Goju Sanchin so that it's done closed-fisted and with dynamic tension.
• Uechi Ryu practitioners have "time on target" when doing their relaxed, fast Sanchin nukite thrusts.

When teaching my Thirty-eight Special form, I emphasize to the students that there are 3 distinct kinds of kicks: whip it, stick it, and swing it. I can say that because <ahem> I was the choreographer. For example it's a conscious choice to do a snapping front kick in one part of the form, and a thrusting front kick (time on target) in another.

So... What's Matayoshi thinking when doing these whip-like Sanchin nukites in the beginning? Fascinating... It does however jive more with the snake-like strikes he's doing later in the form.

I'm asking this also because I've seen some video clips of Rick Wilson's students, and they appear consciously to be doing their Sanchin nukite thrusts in the same manner. (At least the few that I looked at.) These executions are anomalies in the Uechi family.

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

- Bill

[Kuma-de]

OK... I have a question for the fans of Fuzhou and Naha region martial arts. We all are more or less on the same page.

Watch Matayoshi Sensei do his Kingai Ryu form. Just for information purposes, Kingai Ryu is thought by some to be the antecedent of modern Goju Ryu. (It most definitely looks like it.)

.......... Kingai Ryu

Check out the Sanchin nukite thrusts. Note how they are more like a boxer's jab.

• Miyagi and company changed the Goju Sanchin so that it's done closed-fisted and with dynamic tension.
• Uechi Ryu practitioners have "time on target" when doing their relaxed, fast Sanchin nukite thrusts.

When teaching my Thirty-eight Special form, I emphasize to the students that there are 3 distinct kinds of kicks: whip it, stick it, and swing it. I can say that because <ahem> I was the choreographer. For example it's a conscious choice to do a snapping front kick in one part of the form, and a thrusting front kick (time on target) in another.

So... What's Matayoshi thinking when doing these whip-like Sanchin nukites in the beginning? Fascinating... It does however jive more with the snake-like strikes he's doing later in the form.

I'm asking this also because I've seen some video clips of Rick Wilson's students, and they appear consciously to be doing their Sanchin nukite thrusts in the same manner. (At least the few that I looked at.) These executions are anomalies in the Uechi family.

Thanks ahead of time for your thoughts.

- Bill

Hey Bill,

There is some argument that it was actually Higashionna that closed the fists in Sanchin but Miyagi changed the breathing.

You will see the same type of nukite in Goju Ryu's Shisochin kata

and you will see two different Sanchin kata here in Motobu Ryu's version Notice the lighter breathing.

In bunkai our nukite would be focused on soft targets like throat, arm pit, or eyes. This could easily be switched to a palm heal strike to harder targets like jaw, ribs, face, etc.

Gambatte,

[MikeK]

I'm asking this also because I've seen some video clips of Rick Wilson's students, and they appear consciously to be doing their Sanchin nukite thrusts in the same manner. (At least the few that I looked at.) These executions are anomalies in the Uechi family.

I'm not a Uechi guy, or even a karate guy these days, but the eye strike is one of my top three first moves. I'm a whipper with that technique rather than time on target as it's one of those "oh ship", buy a split second to go on the offensive techniques, or an opening "cheap shot" and I've found it's not good to leave it out there in case you miss. (Yes we practice the dreaded what if you miss scenario).