Entering the low stance

candan · Post by **candan** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 1:27 pm

http://cyberdinn.free.fr/sutemi/KOHLER_JUDSON_1_.MPG

Not sure if allowed but copied this link from the Arnis forum. Note how the fighter sets his front foot down when landing an "explosion" into the other fighters head. Very wide stance and wicked timing.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 10, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Sun Mar 10, 2002 3:11 pm

Great example of the concept, Candan.

Worth another shot:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

The feet must move to place the middle body in a superior position to that of the opponent, the middle portion settles the balance and maintains posture for a strong foundation, and the upper body effects the defensive move and counter, timing it precisely with the settling of balance and the motion of the feet to position.

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Van Canna

candan · Post by **candan** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 5:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Watch the manner in which he does the “elbow lunge” __ a total departure from the
standard we are used to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Watched and tried Toyoma method of sinking into low stance ( dropping down by widening stance). Found it very effective in Seisan bunkai as it positions the middle quicker than moving forward into the stance does for me. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The feet must move to place the middle body in a superior position to that of
the opponent<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Therefore, less chance of being nailed while in transition if the attack is faster than I am able to react by telling my muscles to bring me forward and then creating the forward motion intead of "widdening" which seems effective if the attack is upon me anyway. May only be scatching the surface but really pleased with what I am discovering so far, there is GOLD in this concept.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 10, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 10, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:29 pm

Many of the concepts talked about here are not foreign to me, except maybe for some foreign words used to describe them. I believe we may not be that far apart here. As they say, great minds think alike.

For example, I've been teaching a sinking and explosion with the forward elbow thrust that I see very few people do. It's similar to the concept of jumping. The natural way to jump is first to prestretch the muscles. It gives both passive and active energy to the leap (neuromuscular reflexes). You can train to enhance that effect (plyometric training). That's why we have so many more people that can dunk a basketball today than in the past. Many karate people are way behind the curve.

For a while I thought Nobody else seems to be doing this...am I leading my students astray?? But when you can demonstrate the concepts on the heavy bag, that says it all.

Where did I learn similar concepts? Actually I was first exposed to some of it by Hiroshi Hamada, my first martial arts instructor. He had us all drill a backfist, reverse punch combination endlessly. It used rotational force generation concepts similar to what one sees in the "drum technique" of the second karate kid movie (for lack of a better common reference). We had some W&M football linemen in the class that could throw the combination while advancing forward, thus adding both rotational and translational forces to the hand movements.

My second significant exposure came from John Gamble, former UVa strength coach (likely still with the Miami Dolphins now) and former heavyweight powerlifting champion. I have said it before and I will say it again. I cannot imagine people understanding whole-body strength and power concepts without having worked on the simple, freeweight (NOT machine) squat. Follow that up with power cleans or other plyometric drills (to go from strength to power concepts) and you have the whole package. The interesting thing I found when I was getting some of my karate students to do squats in the 1980s was that people could increase weight on the exercise dramatically without necessarily getting bigger in the legs and glutes (althought that would indeed happen). At least 50% of the exercise was technique. One 5 ft 5 in., 130 lb. woman in my class was squatting 250 lbs.

I do have a comment about the nice mpg file. First of all, the dude deserved to get knocked out! What defense??? But then we didn't see what happened up to that one point in time. The guy may have already had the starch taken out of him.

Secondly, I beg to differ with anyone who would state that the front leg had any significant contribution to the power of that technique. Take your mouse and click on the sliding bar of the movie so you can look at it frame by frame. Any baseball pitcher (been there, done that) can appreciate what's going on here. That rear leg - and not the front one - has contributed probably 75% of the power to that motion (with the upper body adding most of the rest). Note the extreme lunge, like a baseball pitcher driving off the pitchers mound. The front leg servers merely to guide the forward momentum (like a gun barrel guides a bullet) as the arm delivers and adds to that explosive lunge.

And now making MY point... That same technique can be done by delivering the punch before that front foot ever lands. If you do that... 1) the punch arrives sooner, and 2) the front foot is never in a position to be swept, as the fist is hitting face before front leg is ever vulnerable. Marty Dow learned that concept from his instructor, Shinjo Seiyu. And I believe he taught it because a certain someone was sweeping his favorite student...

We all have people out there that have our number. But to every good technique (the defensive sweep), there is an answer, and Shinjo Seiyu was teaching it to his students decades ago. But this concept was not new. I was also exposed to it by a Shorin Ryu master in the D.C. area.

Try it some time. You can send the bag flying - with fist deeply buried into it - BEFORE that front foot hits. It works even better when you do a shuffle, and get a little more translational motion. I've broken the chain on a heavy bag before doing that (using a palm strike).

This is part of that variation of intrabody timing I talk about. When you can do that, it gives you some pretty neat timing advantages in an exchange. It also opens many of our kata techniques up to new interpretations.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 11, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 3:51 pm

Van

As for the "old" dan kumite and seisan bunkai exercises, I have one word - Missouri!! I have a great love for yakusoku and bunkai kumite.

Why not at camp?

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:02 pm

More to add to my point of the rear leg involvement...

Check out how the guy "hops" onto the right leg before lunging forward. There is first a compression, followed by the explosive lunge forward. This is exactly what I was talking about above <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I've been teaching a sinking and explosion with the forward elbow thrust that I see very few people do. It's similar to the concept of jumping. The natural way to jump is first to prestretch the muscles. It gives both passive and active energy to the leap (neuromuscular reflexes). You can train to enhance that effect (plyometric training). That's why we have so many more people that can dunk a basketball today than in the past.

Also, take another look at that front leg. Other than pivoting on it just a tad, there isn't much power generation there. In fact, he mostly uses it to push off of so that the falling opponent doesn't hyperextend his front knee.

Also note how the opponent walks right into that technique. Almost like something you see in a white belt match at tournaments. Man that had to hurt!

You can see the cut on the guy's jaw in the final scene. Once again no kyusho there! We in the medical community call that contrecoup (e.g. brain bouncing off the back of the skull).

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 11, 2002).]

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:35 pm

I think the guy who gets the hit in has more going for him than just spring. In general he seems much more relaxed and fluid. He's bouncing around but doesn't appear to be using too much energy, whereas the other guy is not bouncing and his stepping is more measured. The first guy's hands are down and he's not protecting himself much, the other guy's hands are up by his face (not that it does him any good). The first guy appears to be using his stance, to me the second guy appears to be leaning too far forward. Yes the second guy moves into the punch, but it appears to be just as part of his regular movement and not that he was attacking the first guy. To me the first guy is projecting confidence while the second guy is projecting caution and insecurity, and I think the first guy took advantage of that. You'll notice that as the punch is on its way the second guy starts to raise his arm up, either to block the punch or he was trying to land the first punch himself when he realized that the other guy was moving in...but either way he was way too slow. To me these two do not seem to have been evenly matched.

Just my arm-chair quarterbacking of this video at any rate.

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Glenn

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I think the guy who gets the hit in has more going for him than just spring. In general he seems much more relaxed and fluid.

Very important concept in delivering power. It's way beyond strength. It's understanding how to trigger neuromuscular responses, understanding how to take advantage of the summation of joint forces (item one and two = fajing), and understanding how to send energy waves through the body without interfering with the flow of that energy (internal resistance in the lingo of an engineer). Gosh, this energy flow business almost sounds like I'm a chi-ster, doesn't it??

The well-trained athletes make it look easy.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 10:58 pm

Good points on both sides of the issue.

Still how do we explain the Toyama landing mechanics?

And what of this from a sister style master:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The six steps of a good punch:

1. Win before you move.
2. Ibuki Exhalation.
3. Fumikomi Stamping of the ground.
4. Ballistic movement, from contraction to relaxation (ie. release).
5. Continuation, or co-contraction of muscles.
6. Kime all physical movement stops at one time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Van Canna

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Mar 11, 2002 11:39 pm

My take on this is the difference between:

Putting energy/effort into a movement to make that single movement as powerful as possible

vs

Putting energy/effort into a series of movements to make a continuous and unbroken flow of action.

Both are valid - both are very different.

Each may serve a different kind of fighter better.

A big strong fighter - that only needs to get in a couple solid shots to down someone might want to focus on the idea of putting every last ounce of energy into every strike.

A smaller, faster, lighter fighter may want to focus on the speed of delivery of multiple techniques that will wear down the opponent.

It's kind of the like the difference between fighting with a broadswoard and fighting with rapier. Both require relaxation and good body mechanics but each kills you in a different way.

Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 11, 2002).]

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:31 am

Candan, thanks for reposting this. I think Van posted it before as well. We all agree excellent KO. Who said the whole body is a pressure point if you hit it hard enough?

Great thread, interesting analysis on power dynamics etc.

I see things a bit different, but not much, here's my two cents to ponder.

The winner we will call the BG, which stands for the Big Guy. The loser we will call DG, which stands for the dead guy. Because when you lay before your opponents feet, it is but a short journey should he decide to finish the task.

Sensei Van has told us frequently the importance of getting off first. Here is a text book example.

(He who gets of the first with the most usually wins. He who gets off last usually sits on his ass.)

I see the BG transfer weight to rear leg, front leg like cat stance. Rear leg explodes with big power shot. Blow is delivered as front leg hits ground. The big step changes the center, the angles and distance now different.

This timing element is important. Try throwing hook powering 100% commitment off rear foot; do not land front foot. (Strike a heavy bag)
Try again delivering strike as front foot finds the ground. I find the shot has more power and the angle of the shot changes. Landing the foot allows the hip and back to unload as well. If you're going to hit them hit them with all of it.

The DG makes the mistake of being second, in this case last.
He's too slow because he reacts instead of acts.He is back on his heels as the attack starts.

He does try to land his own counter shot. Slow it down and take another look, the DG is trying to hit him coming in, he's just a bit behind the play.

Those who have danced in the ring know that you must some times leave the hole for your opponent to find. Then you can land the big counter as he goes for the bait. In this bout it looked like the bait was taken without the trap being sprung. The DG was caught flat-footed. It was over before he could react. So much for the myth of superior hand speed.

And yet so many fighters are said to be effective with the counter punch. How could this have gone down differently?

What if the DG was balanced on both feet? What if he stepped six inches to his left as he ripped his lead left hand.We might then discuss his superior hand speed. Maybe a different warrior would lie on the floor. I don't think the DG did that badly. He just stayed in the same spot longer than you should. Stand still your a target. Fail to attack, your a target.

Van Sensei: #7,loose, when fail to move.

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited March 12, 2002).]

candan · Post by **candan** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 9:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Kime all physical movement stops at one time.

When a car stops suddenly the sudden lack of the cars movement is felt inside the car..spilled drinks ect... Our bodies are mostly fluid and the hard (bones) are surronded by soft tissue, our sudden stop of movement should generate much the same effect to our body and this energy can be put inside someone else via a strike IF the contact is made when the at the precise time and with a strong platform.
Right now this makes sense to me..after my morning coffee maybe not

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 12, 2002).]

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 4:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I see the BG transfer weight to rear leg, front leg like cat stance. Rear leg explodes with big power shot. Blow is delivered as front leg hits ground. The big step changes the center, the angles and distance now different.

This timing element is important. Try throwing hook powering 100% commitment off rear foot; do not land front foot. (Strike a heavy bag)
Try again delivering strike as front foot finds the ground. I find the shot has more power and the angle of the shot changes. Landing the foot allows the hip and back to unload as well. If you're going to hit them hit them with all of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is it in a nutshell. Watch Kiohide Shinjio sensei's timing in the elbow lunge.

And watch Toyama sensei's as well with his body plunge.

The best boxing knockouts you will see are the ones where the forward foot was firmly planted on the canvass at the instant of the hit.

Fun discussion to say the least.

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Van Canna

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 6:51 pm

I would like to challenge everyone's thinking a bit.

Consider the problem - if you will - of two men jousting. They sit in their saddles while the horses madly gallop towards each other. Each carefully aims his jousting pole, and adjusts the shield. When the two riders pass each other, there is a dramatic point of impact. One rider often is sent flying, while the other ideally remains in his seat. Such encounters can be fatal, even when both are wearing armor.

Battling while on horseback is a concept well understood by generations of warriors. Even today, there's a classic photograph of U.S. special forces troops leading Northern Alliance members in a charge against Al Quaeda forces in Norther Afghanistan. That charge was the turning point in the struggle.

Now consider the quote from the master that Van referenced. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The six steps of a good punch:
1. Win before you move.
2. Ibuki Exhalation.
3. Fumikomi Stamping of the ground.
4. Ballistic movement, from contraction to relaxation (ie. release).
5. Continuation, or co-contraction of muscles.
6. Kime all physical movement stops at one time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Consider also the sanchin kata. And while we are at it, take a close look at the very first stance one enters after bowing.

Can we broaden the concept of "a good punch" to consider the context of the jousting warriors? Will it fit? Can we broaden the concept of sanchin to apply its principles in this situation?

And while thinking about sanchin vs. the riding warrior, you might want to take a look at the classic Hunter Seat Equitation, by George H. Morris.

And if it works there, why not go from galloping horse to galloping human? And who says that the punch must be delivered at any one point in the gallop cycle? Do we always have control of that when two fighters converge, whether in the saddle or on their feet? Should I only attack when I'm stationary??

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

How many fingers do you see?

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:59 pm

By the way, I am in complete agreement that a left hook generally requires a forward foot plant. Been there, done that. Also, I used the example of Joe Frazier earlier in this thread.

This is also a very interesting "relative" issue when you think about it. If you consider one is in the sanchin stance, then it is your front foot that is planted and driving when doing the left hook. However when you consider that this is a lateral technique with the force going from left to right, then relative to the force trajectory, you are actually striking off of a rear foot.

As I said earlier in the thread, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Once the fight sequence is started, the forces deliverd to the floor from the legs will shift from foot to foot as combinations flow. These are certainly issues felt easier than seen.

- Bill