Disturbing law proposed in Afghanastan

[AAAhmed46]

More an economic, infrastructural problem then an ethnic or religious one..

Not religious at all... (sic) It's all the same.

DIfferent issue from wife beating.

Also, different muslim countries, different standards, different ethics.

Arabs take on religion are different from Iranians/persians, Different from south asians, indonesians, Malaysians, africans.

Even arab christians practice Christianity different from your typical American evangelist(with the exception of evangelical arab christians)

Plenty of fake, transexual hijras in the streets of pakistan, and openly gay men.

Afganistan has a very long and old homosexual subculture, that has been revived since the fall of the taliban, and even had some major issues with canadian soldiers...not because they were gay.

The Taliban were against homosexuality and child abuse (sexual) punishing it with, naturally, death. When the Taliban were in power it just went underground, now that friendly ISAF is there we look at each other and say, are they allowed to do that? Mean while they prance around and bugger little boys. The little boys aspect is what rubbed Canadian soldiers the wrong way(rightly so)

Some problems are NOT religiously motivated crime(pedophilia and wife beating)

The gays? Yes, yes it is religiously motivated. But here often culture and religion will clash.

Got this post from a soldier on another forum:

Taking it out of context. In this case it's not a matter of ordering someone around.
Women are property. Men own women. They've been sold in the market.
It's common to beat the living ##### out of them.
We had a medic who had to take a man (who beat his wife unconscious) and explain to him which hole to put it in. He was beating his wife because she wouldn't give him a son, she wouldn't get pregnant. The dumb ##### grew up 'practicing' ##### guys in the ass and couldn't figure out why his wife wasn't getting pregnant.

Now think about that. The husband never even stopped to think about the other hole was for. Honestly think about that. Issues are far deeper then extremism alone, though thats another monster....

[AAAhmed46]

Quote
"Controversial Afghan family law halted: minister
Last Updated: Sunday, April 5, 2009 | 10:40 PM ET Comments350Recommend98CBC News
Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon says he was informed Sunday by his counterpart in Afghanistan that a new family law, which critics say legalizes marital rape, will be revised. (CBC)Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said he was informed Sunday by his counterpart in Afghanistan that a new family law, which critics say legalizes marital rape, has been halted and will be revised. "

Which simply proves that Afganistan is a country still under the thumb of the US and that the US can decide what laws that it wants to impose on the populace.........rather like the farcical killing of Saddam Husain..........now that had nothing to do with the US did it

Of course it is, just as the japanese were for a long time, just as india was for a long time.

India was(and in many ways) still has many cultural practices that would be considered contrary to western standards. But look how its' changing?

Afganistan has had what? Ten years since it was freed from the taliban? and before the it was the ruskies, perhaps if the states had stayed and helped the government after the russians, things could have been different, but i doubt they would have had the resources.

Now, maybe things can be different.

We can't expect 70 years worth of change to happen in ten.

[AAAhmed46]

Basically, beating your wife isn't something viewed as something acceptable, even in muslim countries.

But in Muslim countries, nobody is going to intervene. No matter how many 'institutions' you create. Nobody is going to interfere in the affairs of another household (unless they're gay. Yes, I said the G-word. Try real oppression sometime, victocrats).

People, including here in the west don't exactly advertise their domestic issues. It's even worse in the middle east. Though they have grossly powerful family ties, arabs are also grossly obsessed with their honor.

My dad is aware of the abuse only because he works specifically with abused woman.

Lots of social taboos still need to be overcome.

[Jason Rees]

DIfferent issue from wife beating.

The issues are linked. Anyone 'less' than a heterosexual male is simply not valued, therefore allowing the killing, beating, and even torturing of people who are 'different.'

[AAAhmed46]

DIfferent issue from wife beating.

The issues are linked. Anyone 'less' than a heterosexual male is simply not valued, therefore allowing the killing, beating, and even torturing of people who are 'different.'

Then why is there so much gay sex in south Asian Muslim countries like Afghanistan? Even the Taliban could not stop it.

I have yet to meet a muslim man who boldly boasts of beating the crap out of his wife. Oh it happens alot, but it's still socially unacceptable.

Maybe not in afganistan, but the culture as a whole doesn't accept it.

And afganistan will change, if people stay the course. Do we really expect things to change so much so quickly? Give it time.

[Jason Rees]

Then why is there so much gay sex in south Asian Muslim countries like Afghanistan? Even the Taliban could not stop it.

But they sure tried, didn't they. As you keep on saying, what is 'unacceptable' keeps on happening anyway. Which throws doubt on just how 'unacceptable' beating, raping, and torturing anyone but heterosexual males is, really.

[AAAhmed46]

Then why is there so much gay sex in south Asian Muslim countries like Afghanistan? Even the Taliban could not stop it.

But they sure tried, didn't they. As you keep on saying, what is 'unacceptable' keeps on happening anyway. Which throws doubt on just how 'unacceptable' beating, raping, and torturing anyone but heterosexual males is, really.

..but what about south america? Lots of wife beating goes on there. Doesn't mean your typical latino will say or even believe it's acceptable. Just easier for them to get away with. North america, the same cultural groups suddenly have alot less domestic violence and homophobia.

And....it was open before and after teh taliban. The culture remained constant. So what does that say?

[jorvik]

Quote
"Of course it is, just as the japanese were for a long time, just as india was for a long time.

India was(and in many ways) still has many cultural practices that would be considered contrary to western standards. But look how its' changing?

Afganistan has had what? Ten years since it was freed from the taliban? and before the it was the ruskies, perhaps if the states had stayed and helped the government after the russians, things could have been different, but i doubt they would have had the resources.

Now, maybe things can be different.

We can't expect 70 years worth of change to happen in ten."
Don't you think that it is a bit arrogant to expect them to change everything and adopt a Western attitude?..........it would be a bit like a load of arabs invading Canada and demanding that you follow Sharia law, and only eat Halal meat..in any event forcing stuff on people doesn't work. and you'll just end up creating more trouble................I know in my country there is growing anger and resentment at the way PC stuff is forced down our throats and how we have to accept every fringe group and minority and treat them better than the majority .........and I can see the way other folks in different countries and with different cultures would feel.and it's not a lot different from the way we feel.in the UK there is a move to have Sharia law in some places

[IJ]

I find it hard to believe that wife beating is not tied up with religion, which is inseparable from the overall culture. Are we to believe that cultures with religious justifications for keeping women covered head to toe, restricting them from driving or moving around on their own, not getting an education (who remembers the acid in the face trick??), and even having limited access to medical care (because they obviously can't be seen by men and there aren't women doctors because we don't educate them) has no influence on the rate of abuse? Please, all of that sounds like abuse already. Maybe if they were atheists the culture would still drive some of that, but the issues are intertwined.

AAAhmed, can you post any references about the thriving same sex culture in Afghanistan and Pakistan?? Comes as something of a surprise to me based on what I've heard. And does anyone know what to make of the Taliban same sex pedophile in "The Kite Runner?" I figured that kind of person would be eviscerated, not welcomed, in the Taliban.

As for the comments about the US encouraging terrorists as much as the Taliban, about how reversing a rape law suggests that Afghanistan is under our boot, and how Iraq was probably pressured to execute Saddam because they didn't dislike the genocidal dictator enough on their own: mmhmm.

Cultural relativism has it's place, but when we can't tell the difference between Al Qaeda and the USA, it's gone way too far. That doesn't mean I'm impressed with how our last administration handled detainees, especially after reading the disturbing "The Dark Side." I think we've ruined any chance at prosecuting top AQ operatives because we tortured them, and now we're stuck with them in limbo; others died in our care with broken ribs and I think charges coulda shoulda been brought. All of this was for previous little information and at the cost of using "enhanced" techniques on a bunch of people we knew were innocent and just got rounded up for US cash bounties by the not exactly law and order driven tribal groups in the paki-afghani wastelands.

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/ ... ane_mayer/

[jorvik]

Quote
"As for the comments about the US encouraging terrorists as much as the Taliban, about how reversing a rape law suggests that Afghanistan is under our boot, and how Iraq was probably pressured to execute Saddam because they didn't dislike the genocidal dictator enough on their own: mmhmm."

Let's take the first one, as I remember the US said that the Taliban/Afghanistan was sheltering Osama Bin-Laden who had apparently orchestrated 9/11........the Taliban said if you prove that he did it, and he is here we will give him to you. The US said just give him to us.and before any replies were recieved targeted Terrorist training camps in Afghan and then attacked and invaded Afghanistan..............."Training camps" let's look at that did the Afghan geovernment know of this, did they sponsor it? ....now let's look at the US ,,,,,,,,NORAID .fat,stupid gullible Americans giving US dollars to killers who murder women and children in Northern Ireland ( usually because the Americans think that they are Irish )
Also consider how many Afghans where on the planes in 9/11 ?? ......about as many as there were Eskimos.......

again the same question.......but suppose some folks from the English army turned up at a Noraid meeting and wiped out a few of these scum.how do you think the Americans would react ............
You see always with America it's one rule for us and another for them

As to the
"about how reversing a rape law suggests that Afghanistan is under our boot,"Well the legislation came from them...and how do we know it was designed for that?...We don't........we have folks telling us this, and in my book the same folks who talked about WMD being deployed in 45 minutes...we have never heard the Talibans side of things, never sat down and spoken to them.....do you remember the French? how they said at the UN that even if everybody voted to attack Iraq they would abstain, so you wouldn't get the approval of the UN no matter what!!....they never actually said that .more lies from tony Bliar and Gordon Brown..what they said was ..let us see the report of the Weapons inspectors ( .one of whom mysteriously died )

My take on this in Afghanistan they don't want emasculated women like Hilary Clinton..they don't see a woman's role as being a Schitt like soo many Women politicians.........the legislation is designed to keep the status Quo ( good band )...and although it sounds like it.not designed to victimise women....although as Adam has said you will find just as much victimisation and abuse in latin America and elsewhere

[cxt]

IJ

Kinda off topic.......but not too long ago the Taliban/Al Q issued orders concerning men and young boys...the exact wording/ref escapes me.......but its usually interperated as reflecting their concern about pedophilia.

I'l try and track it down.

I'm not so sure that I would depend on the Taliban for rational behavior..........they rant against greed and vice and yet when the USA invaded they found Taliban leaders with soild gold bathroom fixtures and porn.

Not to long ago in Iran there was major bust of sex trade workers....including the same offical that was in charge (more or less) of public decency.

In conext with your post:

A-Not sure that we "knew" people were innocent from the get-go.....we found that out later....and they were released...pehaps not as fast as you would wish........but they were freed.

A1-A number of those released...for lack of evidence...were in fact members of terrorist organizations and resumed killing people after they were set free.
So at the very least you must admit that its often very difficut to suss out the innocent from the guilty...and being wrong can cause massive loss of innocent lives.

But hey, as usual, other people paid with their very lives for the Left's insistance on treating terrorist/terror as if it were merely a policematter, worrying about "prosocutions", instead of national security.

Amazing to me how many Leftist tears are so very publically shed, such wailing over possible harsh treatment of terrorists and so little concern for their victems.
Charges of harsh treatment of terror suspects? The Left goes into collective spasms---endless venom and bile.
Blow up a bus, burn a women alive, throw acid in a womens face, purposely murder children, cutting off a captives head and the Left utters a collective "yawn."

Shameful.

B. I have very little problem "telling the difference between Al Qaeda and the USA."

But then again I'm actually looking. Something that the Left by and large is unwilling to do.

Again, that oft vaunted Leftist nuance and accuracy of thought seems to only apply when and where you wish.....delibrately ignored when it does not fit the narrative.

[IJ]

Jorvik, you are welcome to your idiosyncratic, unique perspective on the world. However, it's just not even worth responding to.

CXT,

I agree it is difficult to tell the real killers from the innocent. I dispute your claim that the "left" insists on pretending terrorism is not a national security matter. Today, I read pieces on Obama's requests for >80 billion to continue fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and one accusing him of basically assassinating / executing AQ/taliban leaders with drones, often taking out their families and innocents with them. Just who are the "other people" who paid with their very lives for the left's idiocy? The 9/11 victims? To lay that on the "left," why not just show me the reversal / gearing up the Bush admin undertook when they took over the White House? Show me how they switched tactics and starting playing hardball. How they freaked out when they got that memo about AQ determined to attack in the US? How they took it to AQ and simply didn't have enough time to thwart the attack? C'mon. There were failures and opportunities for both administrations and these are particularly visible with the luxury of hindsight.

As for the stuff about narrative and about how the left didn't care about terrorist victims and only cares about the terrorists treatment, oh dear. Show me ONE American who didn't care about 9/11, on either side, or one liberal who yawns when an abductee is decapitated, or a woman tortured with acid. That's an insane charge, and unsupported by any link or data I've ever seen on this forum. Please, substantiate it.

Now, those "leftists" ARE concerned about how the counter terrorism campaign was run because:

1) We DID torture innocent people, and the convoluted logic spun by John Yoo, Addington, Cheney etc to justify warrantless wiretaps, CIA kidnappings, rendition to countries who torture people, disappearing people without trial or recourse for many years at a time of psychological and physical torture... that has huge implications for not just THEIR civil rights but OURS.

2) We DID torture, period, and that has cost us in the court of opinion especially w.r.t. AQ recruitment, our ability to attract allies in our battles, and in the resistance in Iraq.

Read the book. I learned a lot. I don't believe torture is productive, nor is it worth the costs. I'm opposed to it and to kidnapping people indefinitely whether they're mistreated or merely vanished. That's not a precedent I want us to tolerate--did you know the Bush admin argued they should be able to do this with US citizens?? Scary stuff.

[Valkenar]

Charges of harsh treatment of terror suspects? The Left goes into collective spasms---endless venom and bile.
Blow up a bus, burn a women alive, throw acid in a womens face, purposely murder children, cutting off a captives head and the Left utters a collective "yawn."

You don't seem to get it. Ranting and raving about how terrible it is to burn people alive is like a massive campaign to educate people on the dangers of drinking cyanide. Duh. Everybody knows that. Similarly we all know terrorists are out there doing absolutely horrible things. Duh. Everybody knows that.

On the other hand, there are two good reasons to, as you say, go into a collective spasm over torture of US prisoners.

One, is that unlike the bus destroying and acid throwing, the torture of prisoners is being done in our name with our money, ordered by people we elected. It's ultimately our fault that it happened and as a people we control whether it happens again or not. The terrorists' actions are undeniably worse, but we don't control what they do, we can only respond.

The second is that the terrorists are neither listening to people like me, nor are they going to simply listen to reason and change their ways. On the other hand, our fellow US citizens are hopefully open to reason, and at least in some cases are clearly listening.

[Jason Rees]

1) We DID torture innocent people, and the convoluted logic spun by John Yoo, Addington, Cheney etc to justify warrantless wiretaps, CIA kidnappings, rendition to countries who torture people, disappearing people without trial or recourse for many years at a time of psychological and physical torture... that has huge implications for not just THEIR civil rights but OURS.

What do you mean did?

We still do all that stuff!

[AAAhmed46]

[quote[I find it hard to believe that wife beating is not tied up with religion, which is inseparable from the overall culture. Are we to believe that cultures with religious justifications for keeping women covered head to toe, restricting them from driving or moving around on their own, not getting an education (who remembers the acid in the face trick??), and even having limited access to medical care (because they obviously can't be seen by men and there aren't women doctors because we don't educate them) has no influence on the rate of abuse? Please, all of that sounds like abuse already. Maybe if they were atheists the culture would still drive some of that, but the issues are intertwined.
[/quote]
Woman in afganistan draped themselves long before the taliban, hell even before Islam came to them. The Taliban simply took tribal law and enforced it. Hell i know people from northern pakistan, they'll tell you that most religious knowledge comes from village elders and no real literacy, and every village has a different idea of religion.
Just look at how different religion is expressed in Malaysia and turkey and yes, even indonesia. Different societies with different religious roots.

AAAhmed, can you post any references about the thriving same sex culture in Afghanistan and Pakistan?? Comes as something of a surprise to me based on what I've heard. And does anyone know what to make of the Taliban same sex pedophile in "The Kite Runner?" I figured that kind of person would be eviscerated, not welcomed, in the Taliban.

Don't base your knowledge on the news. Reza Aslan was once approched my an iranian man, who asked him if he was an american, when he said yes, the iranian asked him how it was like to live in a theocracy. Thy watch fox, and guess what they think?

THe taliban tried to quash it, but it existed far too long in their culture. The taliban also outlawed dog fights, thats also returned in Afghanistan. I do have references, for pakistan and India, but i have limited internet time, but ill post it up next time i get the modem. I also mostly base this on personal experience and word of mouth from my parents and people who vistited. Remember, researchers from scholarly journels usually do the best research from a grass roots(talking to people, interviewing, observing) atleast in the book i read, it was my anthropology text book.

I will send you the soarce as well as the professor who made the study. It was one in india and Pakistan. Afganistan absorbed the Hijrah/transgendered culture from it's neighbors(yes i know hijras have a long long history, and are a complex subject, so i will use the term loosely.


The transgendered culture as well had existed for a while. While it certainly isn't nearly as free as north america( such as the fact taht i doubt any of them could marry) and they ARE viewed with disdain, but many are open about their sexuality. THey are exploited though, make no mistake.

As for the comments about the US encouraging terrorists as much as the Taliban, about how reversing a rape law suggests that Afghanistan is under our boot, and how Iraq was probably pressured to execute Saddam because they didn't dislike the genocidal dictator enough on their own: mmhmm.

Cultural relativism has it's place, but when we can't tell the difference between Al Qaeda and the USA, it's gone way too far. That doesn't mean I'm impressed with how our last administration handled detainees, especially after reading the disturbing "The Dark Side." I think we've ruined any chance at prosecuting top AQ operatives because we tortured them, and now we're stuck with them in limbo; others died in our care with broken ribs and I think charges coulda shoulda been brought. All of this was for previous little information and at the cost of using "enhanced" techniques on a bunch of people we knew were innocent and just got rounded up for US cash bounties by the not exactly law and order driven tribal groups in the paki-afghani wastelands.

http://www.salon.com/books/review/2008/ ... ane_mayer/

No one loved saddam, certainly not the shia. Look who his judges were?