A state of depletion

[jorvik]

Thanks Rick
I tend to do what I like and then look for reasons why I shouldn't......but it's not like mainlining heroin..........all exercise is good in my book
but i would like to be scientific in my approach.....just seems that a lot of the scientists disagree..Engineers now ..tend to be more practical scientists

[Bill Glasheen]

Ian

All your points of correlations between aerobic exercise and health benefit are noted. But what isn't proven is that each and every one of those items can be achieved ONLY by aerobic exercise. Many of the things you related are associated with "Syndrome X", which clearly is the constellation of things that happen when you are obese. And aerobics haven't (to me) been proven to be the silver bullet for weight loss. In fact the biggest problem with obesity outside diet is the reduction in BMR. And there is a direct correlation between BMR and muscle mass, which is known to decline by 10% per decade after your twenties. And aerobics is an absolutely crappy way to increase muscle mass. If anything, it can be part of the problem for some people.

This is the problem with some lines of research. They walk in with a preconceived notion of something being the greatest thing since sliced bread, and go about showing how it is associated with all these good things. But that doesn't show what the BEST way is to achieve all those good things.

We're on the same page with having some aerobic training in with the anaerobic. But like I said, I can do that by structuring the technique exercises in class in a way where peoples' heart-rates stay within the aerobic range. I don't need a separate aerobic session. That's the way I used to run the first 40 minutes of my 2-hour U.Va. classes, and the students seemed to like that. They drilled technique while doing aerobic training. Then we settled down to some real learning. Furthermore, interval training is a way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. What Tony does for boxing where he hits for 3 minutes and rests for an in-between-round interval is another way to achieve that. And... We don't have to be developing all this slow-twitch ability that can be counterproductive to a martial artist.

I'd be singing a different tune if this was a marathon or a bicycling or a recreational swimmer's forum. But it isn't. I've seen way too many students of the school of aerobics in my class do beautiful, lifeless, slow kata and fighting. We need speed and power in our back pocket along with the good mechanics. That can be achieved while seredipitously getting some aerobic training if you put on your running shoes or swim trunks or get on your machine of choice and do interval training. That is my recommendation.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

I'm a licensed engineer. What I do is pay attention to what Bill G says as his advice is very good. However, I also need to be able to keep up with my workout buddies in the Marine MA program. They are always working to stretch the anerobic phase into minutes and maintain a strong core. They are also adding more flexibility work into the process.

The result for me is even at 52 I can take a great deal of punishment. I think a lot of it is just putting up with discomfort. However, I cannot keep up more than a day at a time. I truly need 48 hours between really hard workouts. Fortunately, as an 'SME' in the program I can drop in and out as I please.

Todays workout was a 3.5 mile run with some 30 to 60 second intervals of sprinting, 5 easy miles on the bike, and 20 minutes in the weight room working on my back and shoulders. And lots of stretching of my upper and lower body.

I am pooped!

Rich

[Bill Glasheen]

We have to remember though that the Marines need to have a strong aerobic base. They need to cart a bunch of stuff for long stretches.

You cannot maximize for everything. You begin with the end in mind. If a Marine needs to be blazing fast, he can pull his rifle out and let modern ballistics do its thing.

- Bill

[RACastanet]

You cannot maximize for everything. You begin with the end in mind. If a Marine needs to be blazing fast, he can pull his rifle out and let modern ballistics do its thing.

Absolutely. God bless the 'force continuum'.

Marines come in all sizes. There are a few that are blazing fast and a lot that have huge arms and thighs. But the bottom line is that they all must perform the same function of long hours of aerobic activity under a combat load, and then be able to switch to their anerobic state under short notice.

Rich

[MikeK]

Aerobic exercise has not just been shown to raise your good cholesterol

My BP and heart rate are great, I'm also not over weight. On the down side my HDL really ***** and that's why I was trying to do over 3 hours of cardio a week. What are some good ways to get my HDL up?


BTW Bill and Rich, I'm cleaning out my closet and I have 6 Tony Blauer videos that the school can have if you want them.

[AAAhmed46]

nope. Gotta run. I cannot stand it anymore. It hurts my hips and knees (because my form is bad), but I have to push my endurance up to another level to get to my goals. I get up a 5am on Monday and Friday, and 4:30 on Wednesday and run 2 miles (on Wednesday, I do a heavy bag/speed bag workout because I have to train in the middle of the week and I can't get to the gym after work). I also do a run and garage workout today (sunday) preceeded by the same 2 mile run (or plod as the case my be). It's helping alot but progress is slow, but there is no way my endurance will get better without doing the run. Now jump rope might be good, but I have trouble doing more then a few rounds with the rope. It seems to work a bunch of different muscles as well as get my lungs burning. Plus it helps get you light your feet! Something every Uechi Ryu Herman Munster can use in their training!

I know you can never have too much cardio, but what would be a good minimum for a fighter?

[Bill Glasheen]

I know you can never have too much cardio

Actually that isn't true. I was hoping we got that across in this thread.

what would be a good minimum for a fighter?

In my opinion, a good minimum for a fighter would be the serendipitous aerobic work you get from good, hard, anaerobic training. If you don't wait too long inbetween hard anaerobic "sets" (whether it be kata, sprints, weights, or time on the exercise bike), then you can keep your heart-rate up and get the aerobic benefit.

FWIW... I spent an hour and a half yesterday evening pushing my lawnmower. Everyone can benefit from doing good basic work outside. This is what the Okinawans did back in their farming and fishing days. They were always fit and trim for it.

Never ignore an opportunity (like using stairs instead of an elevator) to use your body in a healthful way.

- Bill

[IJ]

Funny, Bill... when I do ten flights at work it sure feels anaerobic to me

Again I don't think we disagree about much. However, while you are correct that I don't have proof that aerobic exercise is the only or best way to achieve the benefits I noted, there is more health evidence for aerobics than for anaerobics at present. You say anaerobics haven't been a cure-all for obesity; I say you haven't shown that anaerobics are. You say the death camp aerobicists do lifeless kata; I agree, and remind you that some of the muscle bound anaerobicists can barely get in sanchin or do a thrust that doesn't look like a bench press at slow speed.

The way we tend to do things in medicine (perhaps i should say should) is that we use the proven stuff until something proven better comes along. Diuretics are still part of nearly every multidrug antihypertensive regimen. Expensive, newer calcium channel blockers rose in popularity because they had advertising bucks and there's still no reason to use em first. I will still use something established until the new stuff is shown better in case it turns out to be an atkins fad or the next rofecoxib. Hence, diuretics in most antihypertensive regimens, aerobics as a dedicated element in a recommended fitness program. Maximizing your uechi-tude is a separate matter and recs in those areas ought to be individualized.

The most important check against obesity is not stuffing your face. Only extreme exercise ("an" or no "an") can protect you from the American diet.

[Bill Glasheen]

I agree we are arguing just to argue, Ian. It's what makes us tick.

I agree about not stuffing the face, and staying away from fads. But let's also remember that we are getting away from many of the "right" things we were doing for tens of thousands of years. We didn't used to drive everywhere. We didn't used to do aerobics, and yet we weren't fat. We just did hard work around the house and walked to where we needed to get. You don't see fat Germans because they walk everywhere. That's not aerobics, and you are correct that walking up the stairs isn't either; that's just burning more than you consume. THAT used to be the standard.

Sitting on your ass all day and then going to an aerobics class and listening to mind-numbing disco is new, Ian. Using a stairmaster or eliptical trainer for half an hour is new. Convenience food is new.

Mowing your own lawn and walking to the store on real sidewalks is not. Eating meals together made from real, fresh food is not. Using stairs instead of an elevator is not. Cleaning your own house with good-old-fashioned elbow grease is not. Tending to the farm is not. Riding a horse instead of a car is not.

Obesity in the U.S. is a NEW phenomenon. From a public health perspective, I don't see the results, Ian.

As for new things... Remember when the standard of care for ulcers was reducing stress and stopping or neutralizing acid secretions? Remember the crap they gave a certain U.Va. researcher for claiming he could CURE certain cases of gastritis and ulcers with antibiotics? (And boy did that screw up a drug company cash cow...)

- Bill

[IJ]

Yes, I believe we are, Bill

Walking actually is aerobics. I'm not advocating neon paint and dance music and machines and then sitting on your ass (where did those language filters go??). I'm advocating "aerobic exercise." Walking comes as the first and most obvious choice for the vast majority of people docs advise to exercise! And this one totally perplexed me:

"Obesity in the U.S. is a NEW phenomenon. From a public health perspective, I don't see the results, Ian"

Are you seriously saying that because a recommendation for aerobic exercise (generally ignored by most americans, basically made as a last ditch effort to retain some activity in their lives other than the exercise of their jaw muscles) failed to reverse the momentum of the worst eating and inactivity ever, in a totally uncontrolled environment, that this indicts aerobics?? You think fat people in aerobics classes indicts aerobics, when they went there because they were fat?? You think most americans would have been more compliant with wind sprints and lifting when they failed walking?

I only care about what happens to the people who followed the recommendation. Those people see a benefit. Most karateka probably get a good dose of aerobics doing their art and other activities.

PS: standard of care for ulcers still remains acid blockage. Do it everyday, almost. SOME people have H Pylori; ALL get acid blockage. In this case, your example isn't that of new science providing a replacement, but a sometimes supplement to a tried and true standard of care which remains the foundation. *I* for one think that's a VERY appropriate example to be appllied to the present debate.

[Bill Glasheen]

I certainly hope you do the h pilori tests where appropriate. I happen to know a well-known Uechika of young age who got ulcers (in her 20s) and turned out to have h pilori. That was the cause of the ulcers, and not the proton pump. Curing the h pilori infection made acid blockage (H2 antagonists or proton pump inhibitors) totally irrelevant and unnecessary. Before, such patients were a cash cow for the drug companies who had these people on their meds for the rest of their lives. It wasn't a cure; it was treating the symptoms.

That's my point, Ian.

One should not keep those patients with h pilori infections on their acid meds after they are cured unless they have other issues. It's a waste of money - kind of like keeping someone on a decongestant after a sinus infection goes away or is cured. Trust me - I see the mega dollars in the healthcare data.

And frankly I think a lot of people who take antacids could do much better with a little bit of simethicone (anti gas). But that's a totally different issue...

Are you seriously saying that because a recommendation for aerobic exercise (generally ignored by most americans, basically made as a last ditch effort to retain some activity in their lives other than the exercise of their jaw muscles) failed to reverse the momentum of the worst eating and inactivity ever, in a totally uncontrolled environment, that this indicts aerobics??

Not exactly. I am saying that "aerobics" is the new kid on the block, and not the other way around.

I think we have a little bit of a problem with the definition of aerobics here. To some, it is heart-rate related. I doubt many people get their heart-rate in an "aerobic" range by walking. But walking certainly works.

What I am saying is that "aerobics" as classically defined in the gyms and by trainers isn't a good substitute for the loss of daily activity (largely either sub-aerobic or anaerobic) and the NEW inclusion of convenient, high calorie density, low fiber food. It's like telling a smoker to eat sushi because it'll help him live longer. It's better to get at the cause (smoking) rather than add something in to make up for crappy behavior.

I am also saying that we have lost a lot of anaerobic activity, and that partially is the problem. Ever worked on a farm? We used to be largely an agricultural or hunter/gatherer species. And these guys never had the prevalence of "Syndrome X" like we see today.

Furthermore... I am doing my karateka a disservice by telling them they need to spend X days a week doing half an hour on the treadmill or stairmaster or eliptical trainer, or an hour in an "aerobics" or "tae bo" class. What ends up happening is a loss in the percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers. These people will run a great mile, but they'll losing some of their explosiveness and speed. That's not good. Why not have them do something that will retain and maybe even enhance their speed and explosiveness, and burn just as many calories (if not more)? And can you possibly indict this kind of activity with the little bit of research on aerobics conducted in a controlled setting? I don't see the aerobics revolution when I go to the amusement parks. As a friend of mine used to say in my industry, "Great dog food, but the canines won't eat the stuff!"

By the way, have you ever watched a tae bo or karate aerobics class? Do you fear those techniques? Do you realize how much you would need to undo (reverse program) if any of these people actually came to you asking to learn how to fight?

- Bill

[RACastanet]

I don't see the aerobics revolution when I go to the amusement parks.

This is the time of year I like to go to the beach. Small crowds, lower prices, water warm, sun less brutal...

However, some of the sights are unpleasant. There are the usual unsightly females but this year I was truly taken aback by some of the men... a cross between a speedo and g string. About 2'" of A-crack displayed. Fat, ugly and exposed. Listening to them speak I have to believe they are our French Canadain friends on vacation. Must be a jet set fashion trend.

Bill, if I ever display my body like that in public you have my permission to shoot me. Ugh.

By the way, I am not yet scheduled for anything this Friday. Want to go to the Montpelier range? I still have a box of your favorite ammo.

Rich
Rich

[Asteer]

About 2'" of A-crack displayed. Fat, ugly and exposed. Listening to them speak I have to believe they are our French Canadain friends on vacation.

From your description, sounds more like the French than French Canadian.

[RACastanet]

Oh no, a French Canadian!

Could have been some visitors from France but there were cars with Quebec plates in the lot. "La Belle' province or something like that.

Wherever they are from there must be a different definition of style.

When I spotted the first one comimg out of the surf I thought the current just pulled and rolled the suit down. I was going to mention it to him but then saw others with the same suit so I just went the other way.

This effect was visible on two separate visite two week apart so it must be the season...

Rich