Sorry, another no-touch video
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
I can remember back in my dog lab days (cardiology research) when a dog would poop while on the table. Dogs (and people) will poop under anesthesia. "It" happens... 
I still remember the reaction of perfectly grown men with children. It's obvious that most of these men had never changed a diaper in their lives, or ever worked on a farm. Jeezz! 
Of course Laird was kidding. He's about as close to a "nature boy" as you can get. I assume he's gutted an animal or two in his life.
Meanwhile... Them city boys must assume they harvest those prairie oysters in farm ponds.
Somebody's having a bad day.
- Bill
I still remember the reaction of perfectly grown men with children. It's obvious that most of these men had never changed a diaper in their lives, or ever worked on a farm. Jeezz! Of course Laird was kidding. He's about as close to a "nature boy" as you can get. I assume he's gutted an animal or two in his life.
Meanwhile... Them city boys must assume they harvest those prairie oysters in farm ponds.
Somebody's having a bad day.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
jorvik wrote:
ok you have tough arms, and tough shins.but I am going to hit you in the head ...and I have not seen Uechi folks using their hard arms, they tend to do Wa-ukes, so why harden the arms what is the point...
Ray
Uechi Ryu isn't about programming synaptic patterns de novo into your brain. It is not something new which we need to learn. As long as you think that, you will never "get" this martial art.
A good martial art never, ever works in opposition to common low brain (amygdale) responses. Instead, a good martial art takes what you normally do when surprise attacked, and refines those motions to ones that works to your best advantage.
Once a very long time ago, a young anthropology grad student by the name of Carlos Castaneda went to learn the ways of the Yaqui Indian tribe. It was clear to this medicinal/spiritual leader that this young man didn't see what was right in front of him. He used "other means" to open the young man's eyes.
If you can't see any "Uechi" in the above photo, then I suggest you go see Don Juan.
- Bill
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jorvik
Ok Bill
I'll tell you my dilema
..take as an example the noble art of boxing, if I want to be good at boxing then I do certain activities to accomplish that goal 
...I punch bags, pads etc.all with an end result in that I can "Box"...now, I wouldn't do Tae kwon do training to get good at boxing ( I'm not knocking TKD here just making a point)...because it's all about kicking.....and if I went to a TKD club where they were all kicking away and asked them what they where doing........and one of them said "I'm learning to box" 
.Well!! I'd be a bit surprised....nearly as surprised as when I see Uechi folks pounding their arms when they use "their hands" to block and punch....................I've seen the arms used in Hung-Gar as weapons, fact is the guys look like windmills when they do that sort of stuff...but maybe the Uechi is a bit different on this side of the pond 
....i have never seen them use arms to block or as a striking method.I therefore have to ask why do they pound their arms? what is the point of this?
is it an afterthought?
Y'know, maybe we'll just do this as well ( why not carry a Glock and a big ole knife )
I'll tell you my dilema
..take as an example the noble art of boxing, if I want to be good at boxing then I do certain activities to accomplish that goal ...I punch bags, pads etc.all with an end result in that I can "Box"...now, I wouldn't do Tae kwon do training to get good at boxing ( I'm not knocking TKD here just making a point)...because it's all about kicking.....and if I went to a TKD club where they were all kicking away and asked them what they where doing........and one of them said "I'm learning to box" .Well!! I'd be a bit surprised....nearly as surprised as when I see Uechi folks pounding their arms when they use "their hands" to block and punch....................I've seen the arms used in Hung-Gar as weapons, fact is the guys look like windmills when they do that sort of stuff...but maybe the Uechi is a bit different on this side of the pond ....i have never seen them use arms to block or as a striking method.I therefore have to ask why do they pound their arms? what is the point of this? is it an afterthought?
Y'know, maybe we'll just do this as well ( why not carry a Glock and a big ole knife
)-
Willy
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Going along with the same sentiments... If you want to shoot and/or cut, then make sure you carry.
If you want to do unarmed combat, or be prepared to use this part of the force continuum, then Uechi Ryu is an option.
You don't "get" this, Ray, either because you're intentionally being obstinate or you just don't have the experience. I've trained classes as large as 50 at a time with men and women in them.
If I don't do ukemi before people are at risk for falling on the floor, then I see a higher rate of broken wrists and separated shoulders. Good ukemi training prevents injuries.
Eventually we need to graduate the kata queens to the partner work. Whether by prearranged or in freeform... If I (personally) neglect the kotekitae and the ashikitae, then I see a dramatic increase in injuries. Not only do I see more black-and-blue forearms and shins, but... I see more out-of-control partners because they have no idea how they can hurt themselves until it's too late. Then once they've hurt themselves, they've learned to "flinch" when they come in contact with a partner. Oh boy... Now I have one more inappropriate response I need to de-program.
If they've "tasted the hot sauce" by banging some forearms and shins, they learn not to do something like blindly kick or punch without regard to what is in front. And when the contact does happen - and it WILL happen if you practice this art - they are less likely to get hurt for myriad reasons. They learn to stay focused on the task at hand while the s*** is flying around them.
We do kotekitae and ashikitae because we get better outcomes when we do it. If you don't then don't do it. God won't strike you down with lightning if you choose a different path.
- Bill
If you want to do unarmed combat, or be prepared to use this part of the force continuum, then Uechi Ryu is an option.
You don't "get" this, Ray, either because you're intentionally being obstinate or you just don't have the experience. I've trained classes as large as 50 at a time with men and women in them.
If I don't do ukemi before people are at risk for falling on the floor, then I see a higher rate of broken wrists and separated shoulders. Good ukemi training prevents injuries.
Eventually we need to graduate the kata queens to the partner work. Whether by prearranged or in freeform... If I (personally) neglect the kotekitae and the ashikitae, then I see a dramatic increase in injuries. Not only do I see more black-and-blue forearms and shins, but... I see more out-of-control partners because they have no idea how they can hurt themselves until it's too late. Then once they've hurt themselves, they've learned to "flinch" when they come in contact with a partner. Oh boy... Now I have one more inappropriate response I need to de-program.
If they've "tasted the hot sauce" by banging some forearms and shins, they learn not to do something like blindly kick or punch without regard to what is in front. And when the contact does happen - and it WILL happen if you practice this art - they are less likely to get hurt for myriad reasons. They learn to stay focused on the task at hand while the s*** is flying around them.
We do kotekitae and ashikitae because we get better outcomes when we do it. If you don't then don't do it. God won't strike you down with lightning if you choose a different path.
- Bill
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jorvik
Quote
"You don't "get" this, Ray, either because you're intentionally being obstinate or you just don't have the experience. I've trained classes as large as 50 at a time with men and women in them."
No I do get it, what I don't get is why it is such a big deal..a Mecca that we all must head for. It's much more important to lift weights and do cardio stuff than do that ./ok it may add a little, but what does arm conditioning do for you? I mean how often do you use the arms for blocking or striking?.so why the big deal?.everyone goes on about Kanbum bringing this back from China..having a good hard punch and kick is far more important
I think Bruce's Juko Ryu stuff was much more impressive..if Kanbun had brought that back from China you'd be telling me how great that was
"You don't "get" this, Ray, either because you're intentionally being obstinate or you just don't have the experience. I've trained classes as large as 50 at a time with men and women in them."
No I do get it, what I don't get is why it is such a big deal..a Mecca that we all must head for. It's much more important to lift weights and do cardio stuff than do that
./ok it may add a little, but what does arm conditioning do for you? I mean how often do you use the arms for blocking or striking?.so why the big deal?.everyone goes on about Kanbum bringing this back from China..having a good hard punch and kick is far more importantI think Bruce's Juko Ryu stuff was much more impressive..if Kanbun had brought that back from China you'd be telling me how great that was
Bill,
Good post.
Mike,
Forearms are formidable ‘entry weapons’ among other uses. Wes Tasker [Pekiti Tirsia] showed us some fantastic use of forearms work and conditioning that goes to ‘structure’ _
I dislike the punch as it will get you in trouble most of the time in the streets. Yet you see it used in Uechi 90% of the times in the drills and bunkai_ something Uechi was not designed to do.
Ever seen the clip of Shinjio sensei breaking a bat held by his brother in his hands with a forearm blow?
About 90% of all my ‘work’ and my teaching [impact] involve forearms. Extreme close quarters combat is what defense is all about and forearms in many variations are king, in str9king _ redirecting and spearing, with the ‘final blow’ _
In my soccer days _ in this photo_
I learned quickly the value of forearms and elbows to ‘navigate’ and survive ‘field chaos’ _ not any different than ‘street chaos’ _
Body Conditioning is a must in all aspects of contact.
Good post.
Mike,
Forearms are formidable ‘entry weapons’ among other uses. Wes Tasker [Pekiti Tirsia] showed us some fantastic use of forearms work and conditioning that goes to ‘structure’ _
I dislike the punch as it will get you in trouble most of the time in the streets. Yet you see it used in Uechi 90% of the times in the drills and bunkai_ something Uechi was not designed to do.
Ever seen the clip of Shinjio sensei breaking a bat held by his brother in his hands with a forearm blow?
About 90% of all my ‘work’ and my teaching [impact] involve forearms. Extreme close quarters combat is what defense is all about and forearms in many variations are king, in str9king _ redirecting and spearing, with the ‘final blow’ _
In my soccer days _ in this photo_
I learned quickly the value of forearms and elbows to ‘navigate’ and survive ‘field chaos’ _ not any different than ‘street chaos’ _
Body Conditioning is a must in all aspects of contact.
Van
I find that not many teachers know the proper use of forearms in combat.
The areas which are used for blocking include: the inside of the forearm, outside of the forearm, and the back of the forearm.
These areas are also used for striking and controlling.
Striking with the inside of the forearm is similar to throwing a roundhouse punch and striking with the outside of the forearm is a similar motion to the back fist.
When striking with either side, it’s imperative that you keep your arm bent to prevent injury to your elbow joint.
And this one is deadly as taught by Art Rabesa _ Whip your right arm around behind his head and snap the inside of your forearm into the back of his skull.
Also snap your forearm up between the opponent’s legs once you find the opening.
Then there is this which is my favorite _ Hacksaw forearm
“Hacksaw” _ the hacksaw motion neither chops like an axe nor cuts like a saber. “...it saws through the target using a combination of lateral and forward motion.
Just don’t be at the receiving end of this one, in my dojo.
The areas which are used for blocking include: the inside of the forearm, outside of the forearm, and the back of the forearm.
These areas are also used for striking and controlling.
Striking with the inside of the forearm is similar to throwing a roundhouse punch and striking with the outside of the forearm is a similar motion to the back fist.
When striking with either side, it’s imperative that you keep your arm bent to prevent injury to your elbow joint.
And this one is deadly as taught by Art Rabesa _ Whip your right arm around behind his head and snap the inside of your forearm into the back of his skull.
Also snap your forearm up between the opponent’s legs once you find the opening.
Then there is this which is my favorite _ Hacksaw forearm
“Hacksaw” _ the hacksaw motion neither chops like an axe nor cuts like a saber. “...it saws through the target using a combination of lateral and forward motion.
Just don’t be at the receiving end of this one, in my dojo.
Van
It's interesting how, for whatever reasons (including trying to hide the good stuff from foreigners), "standard" bunkai is often facile.
One example of this is jodan uke of Shorin-Ryu, similar to (jodan) hajiki uke in Uechi except closer in. Also, in Shorin-Ryu the palm faces the opponent at the end because the blocking/striking surface is the sharp edge of the ulna. In a standard bunkai this is almost always used to block a punch. It can be used that way while dropping down and moving in against an attacker who is punching to the head, but there are several clues in kata that this is not the most interesting and useful interpretation. One is the end if Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan), which in two directions ends a sequence with the technique. Also, in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan), there is a sequence of three in a row in one direction, again ending the sequence with the technique. I've seen this done with the "attacker" throwing a punch and stepping backwards 3 times in a row. (:lol:)
I think it's designed to be an inside technique, a controlling technique with the forearm pressed to the neck or, when it can be delivered more quickly, a strike, either to the neck or under the chin to force the head up in order to create an opening, but I never see that demonstrated as bunkai of the kata in which the technique appears.
One example of this is jodan uke of Shorin-Ryu, similar to (jodan) hajiki uke in Uechi except closer in. Also, in Shorin-Ryu the palm faces the opponent at the end because the blocking/striking surface is the sharp edge of the ulna. In a standard bunkai this is almost always used to block a punch. It can be used that way while dropping down and moving in against an attacker who is punching to the head, but there are several clues in kata that this is not the most interesting and useful interpretation. One is the end if Pinan Shodan (Heian Nidan), which in two directions ends a sequence with the technique. Also, in Pinan Nidan (Heian Shodan), there is a sequence of three in a row in one direction, again ending the sequence with the technique. I've seen this done with the "attacker" throwing a punch and stepping backwards 3 times in a row. (:lol:)
I think it's designed to be an inside technique, a controlling technique with the forearm pressed to the neck or, when it can be delivered more quickly, a strike, either to the neck or under the chin to force the head up in order to create an opening, but I never see that demonstrated as bunkai of the kata in which the technique appears.
Mike
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Ray
Van and Mike got the ball rolling in terms of answering your questions.
I've always found it interesting when you seem constantly and predictably to fall back on boxing (and some boxing champion) as the gold standard of self-defense. Boxing is a great sport - equipment and all. But boxing "as is" used as self-defense?
Van brings up some wonderful uses of the forearm as an attacking weapon in Uechi Ryu. Now we know there is still controversy as to whether or not my Fuzhou Suparinpei is at all connected to Kanbun's style and the Suparinpei that he saw while studying with Shushiwa. That being said, my Fuzhou Suparinpei had repeated forearm attacks in it.
Even in the sport areana... I remember watching the first ever full contact karate championships on TV. Joe Lewis (someone who taught at our camp a few years ago, BTW) won the heavyweight championship. (Superfoot Wallace won the weight division below him.) Before the match, the announcers were making a big deal about the fact that Joe was undefeated and won almost all his matches in the first round. Furthermore, a forearm to the head was Joe's favorite technique. They showed clips of many of Joe's forearm KO hits. Well... For the world heavyweight championship match he won it in the second round - with a forearm attack to the head.
One of Gary Khoury's instructors is Nakahodo - a very famous and well-respected Uechi practioner. When I first met him on Thompson Island in the mid-eighties, two things jumped out at me. First, the man moved like a quartz clock. Every motion was precise beyond description. And second... Oh my god, those forearms were MASSIVE. Nakahodo had the nickname of Popeye. Not sure if you saw American cartoons as a kid, but Popeye the Sailor is famous for his massive forearms. Anyhow Gary told me that on Okinawa that the masters would do karate demonstrations for the tourists EVERY DAY. Part of those demonstrations was breaking. And what did Nakahodo use to break things on a day-in and day-out basis? You guessed it - his forearms.
I don't know if you've gotten to Seisan kata yet, Ray. Probably not. You might have a different view of the style if you had. In any case, there's an interesting move just before "the jump" that 99% of the Uechi world does with no understanding and no intent. Well... Check this out.
So back to Seisan... Rory Miller - Sosuishitsu Ryu practitioner and trainer of prison guards - did a demo of the three things he can use to enter a bad guy with total disregard to what the BG is doing to him. These are his 98% solutions.
Well, check this out. I took a picture of him demo-ing the technique with someone, and explaining the use of the shearing forearm. This is the prequel.
This is the execution - being done by student to Rory.
Note Rory's right cross (behind black guy) being totally neutralized, and the black guy's entry with right radial bone shearing the right side of Rory's neck. Once inside having "gotten their attention" and established a point of contact, there are all kinds of things a well-trained fighter can do.
Bruce Witherall and I were standing by each other during Rory's seiminar. And every time Rory showed us "things I do which work...", our jaws would drop and we'd look at each other incredulously.
Like I said before, it's there if you look for it, Ray. Go pay a visit to Don Juan some time. He might help you see things from a different perspective.
- Bill
Van and Mike got the ball rolling in terms of answering your questions.
I've always found it interesting when you seem constantly and predictably to fall back on boxing (and some boxing champion) as the gold standard of self-defense. Boxing is a great sport - equipment and all. But boxing "as is" used as self-defense?
Amen. The MCMAP doesn't teach punching to the head. And the Marines train to kill. LEO instructors shun punching to the head for many reasons which have been discussed repeatedly on this and Van's forum. A punch to the head gets you points (and maybe a KO) in boxing the way a kick to the head gets you extra points in a TKD match. But sport is sport, and street is another thing altogether. No equipment, (potentially) no warm-up, and no rules change things considerably.Van wrote:
I dislike the punch as it will get you in trouble most of the time in the streets.
Part of that is the influence of Okinawan sport karate on Uechi training. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Part of it is "going with the flow" as Okinawans like their makiwara and humans instinctively like to punch. And part of the "problem" - if one exists at all - is thinking that punching to the body is equivalent to punching to the head. It most certainly is not.Van wrote:
you see it used in Uechi 90% of the times in the drills and bunkai_ something Uechi was not designed to do.
Van brings up some wonderful uses of the forearm as an attacking weapon in Uechi Ryu. Now we know there is still controversy as to whether or not my Fuzhou Suparinpei is at all connected to Kanbun's style and the Suparinpei that he saw while studying with Shushiwa. That being said, my Fuzhou Suparinpei had repeated forearm attacks in it.
Even in the sport areana... I remember watching the first ever full contact karate championships on TV. Joe Lewis (someone who taught at our camp a few years ago, BTW) won the heavyweight championship. (Superfoot Wallace won the weight division below him.) Before the match, the announcers were making a big deal about the fact that Joe was undefeated and won almost all his matches in the first round. Furthermore, a forearm to the head was Joe's favorite technique. They showed clips of many of Joe's forearm KO hits. Well... For the world heavyweight championship match he won it in the second round - with a forearm attack to the head.
One of Gary Khoury's instructors is Nakahodo - a very famous and well-respected Uechi practioner. When I first met him on Thompson Island in the mid-eighties, two things jumped out at me. First, the man moved like a quartz clock. Every motion was precise beyond description. And second... Oh my god, those forearms were MASSIVE. Nakahodo had the nickname of Popeye. Not sure if you saw American cartoons as a kid, but Popeye the Sailor is famous for his massive forearms. Anyhow Gary told me that on Okinawa that the masters would do karate demonstrations for the tourists EVERY DAY. Part of those demonstrations was breaking. And what did Nakahodo use to break things on a day-in and day-out basis? You guessed it - his forearms.
I don't know if you've gotten to Seisan kata yet, Ray. Probably not. You might have a different view of the style if you had. In any case, there's an interesting move just before "the jump" that 99% of the Uechi world does with no understanding and no intent. Well... Check this out.
There are many ways to do "Hacksaw foream." I have another name for it - a shearing forearm. Same thing; different background. I'm an engineer, you know...Van wrote:
Then there is this which is my favorite _ Hacksaw forearm
“Hacksaw” _ the hacksaw motion neither chops like an axe nor cuts like a saber. “...it saws through the target using a combination of lateral and forward motion.
Just don’t be at the receiving end of this one, in my dojo.
So back to Seisan... Rory Miller - Sosuishitsu Ryu practitioner and trainer of prison guards - did a demo of the three things he can use to enter a bad guy with total disregard to what the BG is doing to him. These are his 98% solutions.
Well, check this out. I took a picture of him demo-ing the technique with someone, and explaining the use of the shearing forearm. This is the prequel.
This is the execution - being done by student to Rory.
Note Rory's right cross (behind black guy) being totally neutralized, and the black guy's entry with right radial bone shearing the right side of Rory's neck. Once inside having "gotten their attention" and established a point of contact, there are all kinds of things a well-trained fighter can do.
Bruce Witherall and I were standing by each other during Rory's seiminar. And every time Rory showed us "things I do which work...", our jaws would drop and we'd look at each other incredulously.
Like I said before, it's there if you look for it, Ray. Go pay a visit to Don Juan some time. He might help you see things from a different perspective.
- Bill
