There has been much discussion about the value of pre-arranged drills. Maybe it's in the way the they are practiced. Of course for kyu's it is a drill designed to teach technique, timing, etc. But maybe for all, it can be used as a drill to teach/train for more than that.
GEM Sensei recently sent me 3 clips (fused to one) showing the dynamic potential of Uechi drills such as Kyu kumite, when practiced in a realistic manner.
Multimedia Link below - go to the Training and Techniques section.
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Scott Danziger
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Rick Wilson
"Maybe it's in the way the they are practiced.”
I would disagree. I have trained them all ways, including the ones shown.
I have had sessions at my camp on how to up the intensity when training these drills. Much like the video only take it farther.
I have tried hard to find the principles that might be best trained by them. See my web site:
http://www.wilsonkarate.com/
and check out under “Principles” the post on "The Principles learned from KYU KUMITE." Even that doesn’t make them work for me.
I have issues with too much prearranged work for specific attacks.
I have issues with the specific moves.
I will also try to find some time to go into Dan Kumite in some detail and post some of my personal issues with this particular Kumite.
Perhaps someone could post here the principles of Dan Kumite along a similar format to how I wrote them up for Kyu Kumite?
I would disagree. I have trained them all ways, including the ones shown.
I have had sessions at my camp on how to up the intensity when training these drills. Much like the video only take it farther.
I have tried hard to find the principles that might be best trained by them. See my web site:
http://www.wilsonkarate.com/
and check out under “Principles” the post on "The Principles learned from KYU KUMITE." Even that doesn’t make them work for me.
I have issues with too much prearranged work for specific attacks.
I have issues with the specific moves.
I will also try to find some time to go into Dan Kumite in some detail and post some of my personal issues with this particular Kumite.
Perhaps someone could post here the principles of Dan Kumite along a similar format to how I wrote them up for Kyu Kumite?
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Rick Wilson
I am still hoping that someone is taking the time to write up the principles they teach in Dan Kumite.
One of the constants in explaining prearranged Kumites as a good tool is the instruction of principles.
Yet, I have presented this request before without receiving a response.
Just kidding around, I really would like to see what others feel is taught by this Kumite.
One of the constants in explaining prearranged Kumites as a good tool is the instruction of principles.
Yet, I have presented this request before without receiving a response.
Just kidding around, I really would like to see what others feel is taught by this Kumite.
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Mark Brelsford
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- Location: Providence, Rhode Island USA
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Kumite Training
Rick and All,
Been reading both this thread and the one above on the prearranged kumites and just wanted to add some comments. In the various "Uechi" styles there are a number of different kumites. Many dojos do indeed perform there own, as we had in the Naha dojo with Nakahodo sensei. All of the yakusuku kumites are designed to practice various principles in an effective manner. My personal opinion is, if a dojo is not teaching the students these various principles then it is not the kumites fault but rather the lack of understanding on the teachers part. It seems like many are quick to blame the kumite, by saying it is out dated or not realistic. I say it is the teachers fault for not presenting the kumites in the context they were designed for, to teach concepts and principle.
With that said, here are some of the concepts that should be learned and explored in kumite practice:
Timing, distance, angle, force, proper stance
Transition of movement
Principles of redirection and control
Natural body movement
Proper zoning
Powerful offensive and defensive ability
The logic of movement
Transition of movement between each move
Proper mental awareness, mindset
Spirit
The absence of independant movement
The move beyond the simple move shown
Targeting and follow up
Respect
Again there is more to the list but I feel this is a good start.
Also, for what it is worth, after reading the other posting on Dan kumite...
Kanei Uechi explained to me that in the advanced understanding of the kumite there are no "side stepping" of the defender against the attacks. The kumite is attempting to introduce the defender to the principles of todome or powerful striking and defensive abilities. Sorry to say I have never seen this applied here in the states.
Mark J Brelsford
Been reading both this thread and the one above on the prearranged kumites and just wanted to add some comments. In the various "Uechi" styles there are a number of different kumites. Many dojos do indeed perform there own, as we had in the Naha dojo with Nakahodo sensei. All of the yakusuku kumites are designed to practice various principles in an effective manner. My personal opinion is, if a dojo is not teaching the students these various principles then it is not the kumites fault but rather the lack of understanding on the teachers part. It seems like many are quick to blame the kumite, by saying it is out dated or not realistic. I say it is the teachers fault for not presenting the kumites in the context they were designed for, to teach concepts and principle.
With that said, here are some of the concepts that should be learned and explored in kumite practice:
Timing, distance, angle, force, proper stance
Transition of movement
Principles of redirection and control
Natural body movement
Proper zoning
Powerful offensive and defensive ability
The logic of movement
Transition of movement between each move
Proper mental awareness, mindset
Spirit
The absence of independant movement
The move beyond the simple move shown
Targeting and follow up
Respect
Again there is more to the list but I feel this is a good start.
Also, for what it is worth, after reading the other posting on Dan kumite...
Kanei Uechi explained to me that in the advanced understanding of the kumite there are no "side stepping" of the defender against the attacks. The kumite is attempting to introduce the defender to the principles of todome or powerful striking and defensive abilities. Sorry to say I have never seen this applied here in the states.
Mark J Brelsford
"Language was invented to ask questions. Answers may be given by grunts and gestures, but questions must be spoken. People came of age when man asked the first question. Learning stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of questions."
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Dana Sheets
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Bill Glasheen
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Mark Brelsford
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Dana and Bill,
Dana as per my e-mail, that is correct there is no movement. No step. In the advanced state, if you will, you absorb, redirect and attack. Much easier said then done however, much like the posting on "standing" ones defensive ground (Wakayama...etc), literally.
Bill, Mark S, Dr. Mark!! Is indeed alive and kicking...busy as all get go but doing well. I will pass on your comments, I am sure he will be glad to hear them. He always speaks of you.... but its all good stuff!! 
Mark
Dana as per my e-mail, that is correct there is no movement. No step. In the advanced state, if you will, you absorb, redirect and attack. Much easier said then done however, much like the posting on "standing" ones defensive ground (Wakayama...etc), literally.
Bill, Mark S, Dr. Mark!! Is indeed alive and kicking...busy as all get go but doing well. I will pass on your comments, I am sure he will be glad to hear them. He always speaks of you....
but its all good stuff!! Mark
"Language was invented to ask questions. Answers may be given by grunts and gestures, but questions must be spoken. People came of age when man asked the first question. Learning stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of questions."
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Mark Brelsford
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NM,
Thank You. A Marine Officer I know once said a comment to me to this affect. I kinda added a twist, simplified it a bit. I am not sure really who said it or where it comes from. I am sure someone, somewhere said it, I would think. I just think its an interesting though that, I hope, invites folks to not just sit here or there but to ask questions and learn.
Mark
Thank You. A Marine Officer I know once said a comment to me to this affect. I kinda added a twist, simplified it a bit. I am not sure really who said it or where it comes from. I am sure someone, somewhere said it, I would think. I just think its an interesting though that, I hope, invites folks to not just sit here or there but to ask questions and learn.
Mark
"Language was invented to ask questions. Answers may be given by grunts and gestures, but questions must be spoken. People came of age when man asked the first question. Learning stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of questions."
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Rick Wilson
Hi Mark:
An excellent list of what any good Yakusoto Kumite should teach. I also like that many schools devise the Kumites that express their schools.
Yakusoto Kumites can play a part in training as per my post on another thread. I dislike when they become the focus of training as I believe there are better drills to take you farther.
“todome”? I am with Dana and would love a more details.
One of my training partners has always looked at Dan Kumite as a “conditioning” Kumite which I think lends itself towards your description of powerful striking.
I had always been a stand and pound type of guy for some time and therefore chose to work a great deal on improving my movement. Lately I have been also working on moving without moving, which may or may not be similar to what you are talking about.
Anyway glad to hear from you and looking forward to more.
An excellent list of what any good Yakusoto Kumite should teach. I also like that many schools devise the Kumites that express their schools.
Yakusoto Kumites can play a part in training as per my post on another thread. I dislike when they become the focus of training as I believe there are better drills to take you farther.
“todome”? I am with Dana and would love a more details.
One of my training partners has always looked at Dan Kumite as a “conditioning” Kumite which I think lends itself towards your description of powerful striking.
I had always been a stand and pound type of guy for some time and therefore chose to work a great deal on improving my movement. Lately I have been also working on moving without moving, which may or may not be similar to what you are talking about.
Anyway glad to hear from you and looking forward to more.
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Mark Brelsford
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- Joined: Mon May 20, 2002 6:01 am
- Location: Providence, Rhode Island USA
- Contact:
Rick,
Got to diaagree abit with you. To quote a friend of mine... "Smarter men the I created these concepts and drills". As with Sanchin, there is no need to look else where. All is presented in this style if teacher/students are willing or have sense enough to look. I feel there is no need for "extras" if one has a proper understanding of the basics and the style. I know you and I have talked about this in the past. I fell this is a complete style when understood.
As for the concept of todome, first let me say that the concept means to generate natural, explosive power. This can be used on both sides of the coin. The power is developed from sanchin and the kumites are a "tool" through which on learns to apply such power. It also developes the concept of 'iron will". This basically means proper mental condition or attitude.
Per the "dan kumite", as explained to me by Kanei. the defender makes no movement (read: grand stepping, jumping, tenshin..what ever movement to get out of the way. He should apply the concept of "efficency of motion") this does not mean he is not able to move. However though, he should hold his defensive posture. Then as I said, one should then apply the follow on movements, a bit hard to fully describe here, but I hope you understanding...please private email if you have any question.
Mark
Got to diaagree abit with you. To quote a friend of mine... "Smarter men the I created these concepts and drills". As with Sanchin, there is no need to look else where. All is presented in this style if teacher/students are willing or have sense enough to look. I feel there is no need for "extras" if one has a proper understanding of the basics and the style. I know you and I have talked about this in the past. I fell this is a complete style when understood.
As for the concept of todome, first let me say that the concept means to generate natural, explosive power. This can be used on both sides of the coin. The power is developed from sanchin and the kumites are a "tool" through which on learns to apply such power. It also developes the concept of 'iron will". This basically means proper mental condition or attitude.
Per the "dan kumite", as explained to me by Kanei. the defender makes no movement (read: grand stepping, jumping, tenshin..what ever movement to get out of the way. He should apply the concept of "efficency of motion") this does not mean he is not able to move. However though, he should hold his defensive posture. Then as I said, one should then apply the follow on movements, a bit hard to fully describe here, but I hope you understanding...please private email if you have any question.
Mark
"Language was invented to ask questions. Answers may be given by grunts and gestures, but questions must be spoken. People came of age when man asked the first question. Learning stagnation results not from a lack of answers but from the absence of questions."
concept
In addition to the excellent list from Mark sensei, I feel that working the concept "to see without looking at" is very important. I like to make sure my eyes don't follow an incoming attack or I don't look at where I'm striking, but be able to see all.
Alan
