I'd like first to go on the record as deploring the inhumane treatment of POWs in Iraq. Fortunately our country (rather than our enemies) is taking the lead on dealing with this issue. I suppose that's the one kernel of hope you can glean from this terrible screw-up.
That being said, I want to make an open observation. Before this controversy, Iraqi insurgents and members of al-Sadr's militia seemed to be controlling the bandwidth in the news media. They were winning psychological battles. The press would have you believe that the horror was too much for a civilized nation. Indeed Bin Ladin has preached that the U.S. is soft and cannot stand up to the kind of brutality (suicide bombings, atrocities committed on civilians) that they could muster in the name of Allah.
And then we have the Abu Ghraib prison abuse making, no, flooding the headlines.
Suddenly the battle to deal with the Fallujah insurgents is getting no press.
Now the U.S. troops are bombing al-Sadr's office, and invading Najaf with tanks. Al-Sadr is holed up in another of his offices. There are no television pictures of maniacal militiamen dancing in the streets and daring the U.S. to invade their holy sites.
Interesting... The art of war is one thing; the psyops and propaganda campaign is another altogether.
- Bill
A radical thought...
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
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Drew Doolin
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Good Observation
Bill,
you make a great point. It's been interesting watching what "makes news" and what does not. There are many good things being done in Iraq and many Iraqis are happy that we are there,... but you don't see much of that coverage.
Recently there was an open letter printed in the base newspaper here at the Pentagon from a Marine in Iraq. He wanted those of us back here to know of the good works that they are doing, and that they (our troops) are proud of their efforts and think the mission is worthy.
As they say "dog bites man" is not news... "man bites dog" is front page.
Respectfully,
Drew
you make a great point. It's been interesting watching what "makes news" and what does not. There are many good things being done in Iraq and many Iraqis are happy that we are there,... but you don't see much of that coverage.
Recently there was an open letter printed in the base newspaper here at the Pentagon from a Marine in Iraq. He wanted those of us back here to know of the good works that they are doing, and that they (our troops) are proud of their efforts and think the mission is worthy.
As they say "dog bites man" is not news... "man bites dog" is front page.
Respectfully,
Drew
d2
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Ted Dinwiddie
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Another perspective might be that the real tragedy of these photos is their very existance. What the heck kind of security is being maintained over there? Obviously, the behaviors of those in the photos are distasteful, but intelligence interogation wouldn't be pleasant anywhere. The command structure and the intelligence organizations should be villified for the security breach as much as anything.
The videos of the enemy's atrocities give vivid evidence of the mentality we are dealing with. What interrogation techniques should be used to ferret out the sons of satan in that latest video?
The videos of the enemy's atrocities give vivid evidence of the mentality we are dealing with. What interrogation techniques should be used to ferret out the sons of satan in that latest video?
ted
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
"There's only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - P.J. O'Rourke
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Bill Glasheen
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One would think an enemy willing to commit suicide by blowing himself up among civilians to be so cold-blooded as to be impossible to defeat either physically or psychologically. But wouldn't you know that these are just boys. The horrified reaction to a woman laughing at the size of a man's genitals is frankly funny. Anyone that wears emotions on the sleeve is in danger of them being used against him.
Let the Americans deal with their own problems of prisoner abuse/mismanagement and security breach. We screwed up; we'll fix it. Meanwhile, I've lost interest in the actions and reactions from the vocal, radical minority. We don't need hypocrites telling us how to be moral.
And I have not lost faith in the mission - to give Iraqis the representational government, productive environment, and place in the world community that they deserve.
- Bill
Let the Americans deal with their own problems of prisoner abuse/mismanagement and security breach. We screwed up; we'll fix it. Meanwhile, I've lost interest in the actions and reactions from the vocal, radical minority. We don't need hypocrites telling us how to be moral.
And I have not lost faith in the mission - to give Iraqis the representational government, productive environment, and place in the world community that they deserve.
- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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Opinion from someone who thinks there is little worse besides the phrase "President Bush" besides "President Cheney." Take it or leave it, it's as fixed as our negative press in Iraq 
I don't believe in moral relativism, which is the idea that everyone's little own group's ideas are as right as someone else's. However it is interesting to see these two groups each viewing each other as the great satan, each horrified at the other's atrocities. Ours was sexual humiliation, theirs, bloodshed, simple physical cruelty and brutality.
Each culture drapes itself in its own values. We have america, known to the fundamentalists as a country full of drugs and sex and loose morals. The terror we inflicted was sexual. Then we have fundamentalists who get high on grief, death, and blood as if they were drugs. Have you seen the enormous, outraged mobs either carrying their dead or displaying body parts of their foes, or lashing themselves until they are splattered with their own blood? Bloody death is the terror they inflict and the porn that THEY flaunt at us. And its as much a part of their culture, to us, as sexual immorality is a part of ours, to them. Neither group has more than an inkling what makes the other tick.
Like I said I'm not a moral relativist. The inhumanity of people who can saw off a man's head and display the images to all with a computer as further torture to his family is infinite. These are not people worth trying to reason with. They're caged in their stone age religious fervor, terrified of the changing world. The best way to have beat them was to have kept them at bay while the world changed despite them and western civilization and it's concepts of democracy, equality, freedom, etc proved themselves, as they wore down the inferior communist ideologies of the USSR and it's eastern block. It's a great system, with a great nation as it's proponent, until we broke our own rules.
Now as far as every living middle easterner is concerned, that culture has been exposed as rotten to the core, just as violent (in a different way, but just as violent to them), AND sexually immoral AND obviously hypocritical. Here's the world's self appointed democratizer and police officer, systematically flaunting the Geneva convention.
Sure, we're making something of a show of trying to clean this up. But I remember Chris Rock ranting about the difference between black people and "N***ers," saying the latter say things like "Well, *I* take care of my children," as if its a major feat. "N***er, you're supposed to do that!" he'd say. To take credit you have to go farther.
A couple of court martials is about the LEAST we could have possibly done about this mess. I can't imagine even the most insincere administration could have publicly done less. Meanwhile Bush going on TV and NOT APOLOGIZING was just giving every Arab the finger. How many morons in his administration signed off on that?? "Yeah, be strong, don't apologize. Way to go." What on EARTH? Then he has to bow to the predictable uproar and make an obviously unfelt repeat appearance to apologize later. HE was unaware of this problem for many months; his most trusted advisers seemed apparently unconcerned and did little to nothing until the news was public and they absolutely had to. These incidents were not aberations that occured under the radar... this was our interogation system, the responsibility goes way up, and while the right thing might be complete transparency, redress and cleaning house, even that won't change ten million opinions that will last as long as every living middleeastener and the memories of their children.
Our administration has set back the case for western civilization 50+ years, and extended the war as long. I don't care if our sexual humiliation is far less severe than the violence the fundamentalists have dealt out; that's not true FOR THEM and the occurence of this problem--and the whole postwar mess--was predictable. Disagreeing with the psychos buys us nothing. In handing the nutcases this enormous victory Bush & Co have essentially recruited a thousand more psychos willing to saw off someone's head and done us an unforgivable disservice, humiliating US as much as prisoners with panties on their heads, and extended the dangers faced by our troops and for the last 2+ years, the general public as well.
I don't believe in moral relativism, which is the idea that everyone's little own group's ideas are as right as someone else's. However it is interesting to see these two groups each viewing each other as the great satan, each horrified at the other's atrocities. Ours was sexual humiliation, theirs, bloodshed, simple physical cruelty and brutality.
Each culture drapes itself in its own values. We have america, known to the fundamentalists as a country full of drugs and sex and loose morals. The terror we inflicted was sexual. Then we have fundamentalists who get high on grief, death, and blood as if they were drugs. Have you seen the enormous, outraged mobs either carrying their dead or displaying body parts of their foes, or lashing themselves until they are splattered with their own blood? Bloody death is the terror they inflict and the porn that THEY flaunt at us. And its as much a part of their culture, to us, as sexual immorality is a part of ours, to them. Neither group has more than an inkling what makes the other tick.
Like I said I'm not a moral relativist. The inhumanity of people who can saw off a man's head and display the images to all with a computer as further torture to his family is infinite. These are not people worth trying to reason with. They're caged in their stone age religious fervor, terrified of the changing world. The best way to have beat them was to have kept them at bay while the world changed despite them and western civilization and it's concepts of democracy, equality, freedom, etc proved themselves, as they wore down the inferior communist ideologies of the USSR and it's eastern block. It's a great system, with a great nation as it's proponent, until we broke our own rules.
Now as far as every living middle easterner is concerned, that culture has been exposed as rotten to the core, just as violent (in a different way, but just as violent to them), AND sexually immoral AND obviously hypocritical. Here's the world's self appointed democratizer and police officer, systematically flaunting the Geneva convention.
Sure, we're making something of a show of trying to clean this up. But I remember Chris Rock ranting about the difference between black people and "N***ers," saying the latter say things like "Well, *I* take care of my children," as if its a major feat. "N***er, you're supposed to do that!" he'd say. To take credit you have to go farther.
A couple of court martials is about the LEAST we could have possibly done about this mess. I can't imagine even the most insincere administration could have publicly done less. Meanwhile Bush going on TV and NOT APOLOGIZING was just giving every Arab the finger. How many morons in his administration signed off on that?? "Yeah, be strong, don't apologize. Way to go." What on EARTH? Then he has to bow to the predictable uproar and make an obviously unfelt repeat appearance to apologize later. HE was unaware of this problem for many months; his most trusted advisers seemed apparently unconcerned and did little to nothing until the news was public and they absolutely had to. These incidents were not aberations that occured under the radar... this was our interogation system, the responsibility goes way up, and while the right thing might be complete transparency, redress and cleaning house, even that won't change ten million opinions that will last as long as every living middleeastener and the memories of their children.
Our administration has set back the case for western civilization 50+ years, and extended the war as long. I don't care if our sexual humiliation is far less severe than the violence the fundamentalists have dealt out; that's not true FOR THEM and the occurence of this problem--and the whole postwar mess--was predictable. Disagreeing with the psychos buys us nothing. In handing the nutcases this enormous victory Bush & Co have essentially recruited a thousand more psychos willing to saw off someone's head and done us an unforgivable disservice, humiliating US as much as prisoners with panties on their heads, and extended the dangers faced by our troops and for the last 2+ years, the general public as well.
--Ian
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Bill Glasheen
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Ian
I agree with most of what you say.
I will say though that the jury is still out on the long term effects. Funny thing... A few years ago a beheading of a civilian on the Internet like that for a Muslim cause would have caused quite the severe reaction here. Our country ran from these atrocities for several decades. Now it seems that our country and culture is somewhat immunized to the violence. The loss of a single American life in combat was a big deal 10 years ago. Now it's...unfortunate. It's the way it was when I grew up in the Vietnam era. And it was even more so during WWI and WWII.
On the flip side, the Muslim community has set ITSELF back in the eyes of Westerners with their recent violence. All most Americans can see is MUSLIM when these beheadings occur. And we as a nation note the deafening silence from the world Muslim community. Joe Sixpack thinks they all belong in caves, and no Arab organization is doing anything to change the stereotype. The Islamofascists have seized center stage.
GW showed a total lack of cultural awareness, but he did finally come around. The trial is playing itself out. The world is still watching. And frankly, networks like Aljezeera are going to present a relatively anti-western point of view no matter what we do right now. The Arab press is just as biased as ours ever could be.
I don't know, Ian. When Clinton was banging every girl with a dress and two legs and the Republicans were roasting him on Capital Hill because he lied about getting blow jobs, much of Europe was saying "Huh?" The French were absolutely laughing their butts off. Who knows what the average Arab on the street thinks? Not all are devout Muslims. They have sattelite dishes and Internet too, Ian. And don't tell me your average Arab male never visits a porn site. My guess is they do so as much - if not more. They just have these other standards and issues the other 22 hours of the day...
Cultural confusion for sure, but the world is getting smaller in the information age. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
- Bill
I agree with most of what you say.
I will say though that the jury is still out on the long term effects. Funny thing... A few years ago a beheading of a civilian on the Internet like that for a Muslim cause would have caused quite the severe reaction here. Our country ran from these atrocities for several decades. Now it seems that our country and culture is somewhat immunized to the violence. The loss of a single American life in combat was a big deal 10 years ago. Now it's...unfortunate. It's the way it was when I grew up in the Vietnam era. And it was even more so during WWI and WWII.
On the flip side, the Muslim community has set ITSELF back in the eyes of Westerners with their recent violence. All most Americans can see is MUSLIM when these beheadings occur. And we as a nation note the deafening silence from the world Muslim community. Joe Sixpack thinks they all belong in caves, and no Arab organization is doing anything to change the stereotype. The Islamofascists have seized center stage.
GW showed a total lack of cultural awareness, but he did finally come around. The trial is playing itself out. The world is still watching. And frankly, networks like Aljezeera are going to present a relatively anti-western point of view no matter what we do right now. The Arab press is just as biased as ours ever could be.
I don't know, Ian. When Clinton was banging every girl with a dress and two legs and the Republicans were roasting him on Capital Hill because he lied about getting blow jobs, much of Europe was saying "Huh?" The French were absolutely laughing their butts off. Who knows what the average Arab on the street thinks? Not all are devout Muslims. They have sattelite dishes and Internet too, Ian. And don't tell me your average Arab male never visits a porn site. My guess is they do so as much - if not more. They just have these other standards and issues the other 22 hours of the day...
Cultural confusion for sure, but the world is getting smaller in the information age. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
- Bill
I feel better now... hadn't had a Bush rant in days
One thing that's for sure is we haven't had someone in the white house who's given the office its due respect in at least a decade, which is rather concerning. While a few mistakes have also colored the western perception of the average arab, this isn't a boon to us. Neither does it matter WHY Arabs don't like us, in that sense; if they hate us, their hating us for what we think is a silly reason doesn't accomplish anything. It simply reflects a widening of the gap between the two worlds, and in my mind, will result in a lengthening of the overall conflict.
The Ugly American was first published in 1958. To me, this latest fiasco is just more evidence that Bush hasn't read it. Must have lost it under some newspapers.
One thing that's for sure is we haven't had someone in the white house who's given the office its due respect in at least a decade, which is rather concerning. While a few mistakes have also colored the western perception of the average arab, this isn't a boon to us. Neither does it matter WHY Arabs don't like us, in that sense; if they hate us, their hating us for what we think is a silly reason doesn't accomplish anything. It simply reflects a widening of the gap between the two worlds, and in my mind, will result in a lengthening of the overall conflict.
The Ugly American was first published in 1958. To me, this latest fiasco is just more evidence that Bush hasn't read it. Must have lost it under some newspapers.
--Ian
