Big Dog Syndrome?

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Bill Glasheen
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Big Dog Syndrome?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

On another forum, we have some entertaining discussions (related to reality-based self defense) about striking first.

Meanwhile...

Unless you don't listen to the news, you probably already know about the NBA fiasco Friday night at Detroit between the Pacers and the Pistons.

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For most of us who don't have jobs as LEOs, prison guards, or soldiers, we need to behave lest we have society ding us for some pretty useless crap. Sigh... Always some boss and/or f-ing lawyer trying to take all the fun out of life. :lol:

It all started when Ben Wallace of the Piston shoved Ron Artest of the Pacers. That's pretty common when you have a game where some degree of banging is involved, and you have world class athletes competing against each other. Sometimes a shove turns into a swing. And sometimes a swing turns into a fight. And sometimes...

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OK, so now we have some big boys in a brawl. Fine... Good thing basketball players can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag... :lol: And good thing they don't play with hockey sticks... 8O

What made this situation unique though was the fan involvement.

It starts with the fact that the fans are considered the "sixth man" on the floor for the home team. Verbally abusing the away team is part of the game. Fine... But sometimes rabid fans and alcohol don't mix very well. Next thing you know...

In this case, a (stupid) fan pelted Ron Artest with a plastic cup. Want to throw something at a pissed-off seven footer? Be my guest...

Players are supposed to "take it", and security is supposed to deal with the offenders. But that doesn't always happen. By Ron Artest's account, this was the third time someone had thrown something at him in a game, and nothing was done about it. The result? Ron Artest violated an unspoken rule. He actually went into the stands in pursuit of his attacker.

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Understand that this is no choir boy. Ron allegedly has a split personality. Those that know him off the court speak of his gentle demeanor. But on the court? He's already been slapped with multiple suspensions, and forced to take ... ahem ..."anger management classes." Hmm... Maybe he should get his money back on the therapy. :lol:

By the end of it all, we saw beer, cups, popcorn, and other debris being thrown everywhere from the stands. We saw fans on the floor attempting to take on opposing players. Once again, good thing basketball players don't know how to punch. You've got to believe that a seven footer could pack a nasty whallop if he knew what he was doing. 8O

And this all brings me to an observation. It seems to me that there's a bit of a syndrome that happens in life. I like to call it the "Big Dog Syndrome." When I had my medium-sized dog, nobody seemed to bother her much. But when I started owning and walking Great Danes, I noticed that they would attract these small to medium-sized yappy dogs that liked to raise a fuss and challenge my beast. It seemed very stupid but... Generally they got away with it because it was difficult to explain to Mrs. Smith why Brandon ate her Fifi.

I once had a 325 pound student who seemed like such a gentle giant. He actually was one of the more dangerous people I ever trained. It was such a joy learning to work with him and learning how not to get crushed... This guy was the most coordinated sumo of a man I've had the pleasure to work with.

Tony spoke to me of a problem he had when going out. Somehow there was often some dick in the crowd who wanted to take him on. Tony generally was affable, and usually was able to blow the person off. But sometimes... This was one reason Tony wanted to train. He wanted efficient ways to control people without actually having to squash them. Go figure...a problem most folks don't have.

Back to the NBA...

Commisioner Stern came down really hard on 4 of the players involved in the brawl. Oddly enough, the start of it all (from Detroit) didn't get much of a punishment. C'est la guerre; it always seems that way. Meanwhile, we have these rabid, drunk fans that seem to feel they have a license to throw crap at NBA players, and find some f-ing lawyer to sue them out of their millions when they fight back.

The way I figure it, if you're going to hit one of these A-holes, you'd better get your money's worth. Meanwhile, it seems the big boys just need to learn to take the abuse.

- Bill
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Post by Guest »

Meanwhile, it seems the big boys just need to learn to take the abuse.
Why should they? Just because they have agreed to play a sport for millions of bucks does not mean they have agreed to be spat upon or smeared with half consumed food products. These athletes still have the right to be treated like human beings. Yes taunt them , try to give your team and edge, but do not assault them.

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Oh ya I forgot, peace!

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Love your enemy! :roll:

I agree Bill it’s too bad those guys aren’t good hitters, those fans deserved a schit kicking!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JimHawkins
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Post by JimHawkins »

I agree about the 'big dog syndrome.'

Intimidating looking people do seem to have to ability to uncork the genie of 'threat response' in some people warranted or not. Possibly some genetic fight or flight influenced thing here.

And BTW:

Great Dane is my favorite breed. They are huge but usually are as sweet as dogs come. One we had years ago would at best 'attack' most strangers by standing up, putting her paws on their shoulders and licking them in the face to death until called off. (though I'm sure they can be trained to kill faster :o)

Just wished they lived longer :(

Jim
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Post by MikeK »

Take a thug hand him a couple mill, dress him in shorts and a tank top, let him do what he's always dreamed of doing and you still end up with a thug.

The fans involved were like the people that get involved in a bar brawl that have no dog in the original fight.

The fans were stupid but the players involved were equally so.
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Post by f.Channell »

Good thing it wasn't the sixties with Kareem fresh from a sparring class with Bruce Lee.
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Post by 2Green »

A couple of comments:
Fans can holler anything they want, but there should be no tolerance for actually hurling physical objects (including liquids)...how do you know someone's not throwing a cup of battery acid?

One player was on TV saying that if a fan touches you, you have the right to knock him senseless, or something like that. That's just idiotic.

There's a classic split second where a player squares off then throws a haymaker right punch. To me that's a classic MA real-world defense model moment and should be studied, scrutinized and analyzed because it's a real, classic situation. There WAS time for the person attacked to react / prepare / defend.
The attacker DID signal very clearly, hesitate, then swing.
Of course the defender had no plan or recognition.

Some time ago there was a very similar clip where a basketball player decked a referee.
Again there was a clear signal, a hesitation, then the blow; a wicked right cross which dropped the ref.
Another MA moment worth analyzing.

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Post by benzocaine »

Take a thug hand him a couple mill, dress him in shorts and a tank top, let him do what he's always dreamed of doing and you still end up with a thug.
Amen!

These azzholes are paid millions to be role models to our kids and what do they do? They go out into the stands and beat up the very people who paid to see them. From what I've seen the Thug.. er Basketball player didn't even attack the right person.(it was another fan that threw the cup)It should have been left up to security to take the disruptive fans out of the bleachers.
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Post by benzocaine »

I have to wonder what I'd do if I was attacked by such large professional athlete who train hard for a living.

Nukite to the eye maybe :?

Ninja death touch :? :wink:
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Post by JimHawkins »

benzocaine wrote:I have to wonder what I'd do if I was attacked by such large professional athlete who train hard for a living.
I can tell you what I'd do:

It's called egress. 8O

Jim
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Post by Van Canna »

>Nukite to the eye maybe ..

Sure..why not..Uechi is such a complete style.. :P

Sure but against whom and what?

_Deafening silence_
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Post by Valkenar »

You're all being facetious when you say it's good they don't know how to throw a punch, right? Like any collection of people some know how to fight and some don't, but there certainly are some who grew up getting in fights, or are otherwise experienced. In fact, now that I've seen the clip, I see that Jermaine O'Neil ran up and dropped a guy with a punch, even though he was slipping as he threw it.

These guys are almost all tall and most are very muscular as well. Ron Artest is 6'7", 244, and I don't see much fat on him. If I had a choice to take a shot to the face from Ron Artest or a randomly chosen black belt of my own size, I'd probably choose the black belt. Proper mechanics can do a lot for you, but so can raw power.

I either read or saw a piece about a fight that took place involving one NBA player throwing a blindside punch at another. The player punched said that his first thought was that the scoreboard had fallen on him. A doctor reported that his facial structure had been smashed badly.

As for a guess about possible tactics, I'd say that attacking the legs may be your best bet. Many players have knee and ankle problems, and even if they don't, it's a large target, at a good height that can somewhat reliably incapacitate on a good hit.
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Post by Guest »

ImageSome of these guys playing bball are kind of big, I think I'd throw the guy in the next seat at them and run. 8O
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Post by JimHawkins »

uglyelk wrote:ImageSome of these guys playing bball are kind of big, I think I'd throw the guy in the next seat at them and run. 8O
That's funny :lol:

A great scene for a movie ala Jackie Chan flavor.

As the bball player comes you stand up quickly turn to the guy next to you – call him a name – he takes a swing at you – you intercept and throw the guy into the bball player and make your escape down the aisle.

You should’ve been a movie fight choreographer Laird.
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Post by MikeK »

As for a guess about possible tactics, I'd say that attacking the legs may be your best bet. Many players have knee and ankle problems, and even if they don't, it's a large target, at a good height that can somewhat reliably incapacitate on a good hit.
But that would be dirty! 8O :lol:

I wonder if those involved were following an unspoken rule that hitting below the belt isn't manly. Were there any low shots in the video?
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Laird wrote: I think I'd throw the guy in the next seat at them and run.
Actually Laird's applying a little seisan kata wisdom, Jim. And yes, it would work.

Couple of comments...
Justin wrote:You're all being facetious when you say it's good they don't know how to throw a punch, right?
Actually no, Justin.
Justin wrote:These guys are almost all tall and most are very muscular as well. Ron Artest is 6'7", 244, and I don't see much fat on him.
I'm a big college basketball fan, and knew a few players that went on to be famous NBA players and even one NBA coach. Basketball players are amongst the most highly trained athletes in the world. But the vast majority of them don't know how to fight, and look pretty damn silly every time they try. I've seen many attempts at fights. Pretty embarassing....like the kind of stuff most of us did in junior high. And I always say it's a good thing because if they DID know how to fight, they could do a hell of a lot of damage.

In my 14 years of teaching martial arts at U.Va., I had some of the most gifted athletes spend a few classes here and there with me. The lesson I learned was that size and physical conditioning don't mean squat when it comes to fighting ability. That is a VERY important lesson to learn. It is a reason why - unlike most - I will walk amongst a group of these types of athletes with no fear and no intimidation. They pick up on that too, Justin.

And the thing you need to do is learn to read the other people in the world who walk around that way... 8O They aren't always whom you think.

Ever met David Moy? If you never knew Jimmy Malone, would you be able to look at a picture of him standing next to an average guy, and know he's one of the scariest guys you'd ever want to meet in a dark alley?
Justin wrote:I either read or saw a piece about a fight that took place involving one NBA player throwing a blindside punch at another. The player punched said that his first thought was that the scoreboard had fallen on him. A doctor reported that his facial structure had been smashed badly.
You are of course referring to Kermit Washington's sucker punch of Rudy Tomjanovich. See The Punch: One Night, Two Lives, and the Fight That Changed Basketball Forever. That's the exception with basketball players, Justin, and not the rule. This shows the potential, but it isn't the norm. And of course it was a sucker punch after all - another key and interesting factor to consider.

I constantly talk about how LUCKY we are that your average basketball player can't fight. Imagine...

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Look at that photo very carefully. It says it all - both the potential and the reality.

To Laird's point...

In reviewing tapes of the Artest tantrum this morning, one final detail is worth bringing out here. Artest was not the first to throw a blow, and he certainly wasn't the one that started the player-fan fricass. After Wallace's shove, players and coaches mostly had the thing under control. Some coaches had Ron Artest off on the side lieing down on a table while attending to him. He either was getting an injury looked at, or they were talking to him to calm him down and keep the anger under control. THEN this A-hole fan throws a cup of beer down at his face from above. Cup, beer and all. THAT'S when Artest lost it and charged into the stands.

This was NOT unprovoked. But Artest got the year's suspension, will lose 4 million in salary, and there will be 10 hypochondriacs in court with their A-hole trial lawyers claiming bodily injury and wanting to shake him down for whatever remaining assets he has (because they smell the money).

That's life... I remind my son of that all the time. It isn't fair when the first guy throws the punch and you get whistled for retaliating, but it happens all the bloody time. So if you are going to retaliate and you know you are going to get caught, you'd better get your money's worth.

- Bill
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