Shu Shi no Kun

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:25 am

This is possibly the most widely practiced bo kata. It's the kata taught on Mikio Nishiuchi's Mastering the Bo video Vol 1. Produced by Panther Productions and distributed by Century Martial Arts. It seems to be taught in many dojo as the first bo kata because of its use of basic strikes and a variety of fundamental blocking techniques.

What is the source or origin of the kata? Was it named after a well-known bushi? I am intrigued by Shu Shi and Shushiwa, the later being Uechi Kanbun's teacher.

Sakugawa no Kun is a no brainer. What about Cho un no Kun? Who is Cho? Gushi Sensei teaches these two bo kata but not Shu Shi no Kun.

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:02 am

http://www.cfts-karate.co.uk/kata_movies.php

fairly common names In China probably , but it`s fun to consider

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:56 pm

There are reportedly different versions of Shushi no Kon. Nishiuchi teaches the Matayoshi version (Nishiuchi also trained in an offshoot of Uechi Ryu under Takashi Kinjo).

One of Shinko Matayoshi's bo instructors on Okinawa was named Ryuko Shushi (I believe that info comes from Mark Bishop's books), so I am assuming he was the one who taught Shushi no Kon to Matayoshi.

I have never seen any indicated connection between Shushi no Kon and Shushiwa. Keep in mind that "Shushi" is the romanized spelling for certain Japanese (or maybe Okinawan) pronounciations. My understanding is that the characters for "Shushi" in Shushi no Kon and "Shushi" in Shushiwa are different.

I am not sure of the origin of Shushi no Kon into other kobudo styles. There are apparently differences in the kata between the various kobudo styles, and I have seen (on Cyberdojo I believe) debates about which is the "oldest" "truest" "most accurate" version...for what those types of debates are worth. I personally have only seen the Matayoshi version so I cannot comment on the differences.

As I work through learning the 5 Matayoshi bo kata, Shushi no Kon is still my favorite. It is the only one I work with using a variety of bo lengths, wood-types, and weights.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:18 pm

Stryke wrote:http://www.cfts-karate.co.uk/kata_movies.php

Thanks Stryke, now I have seen a different version. There are a couple of sequences that are the similar between this version and the Matayoshi version, but in essence they seem to be two completely different kata. I do not know offhand of any online video of the Matayoshi Shushi no Kon unfortunately.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:22 pm

Well stated, gentlemen.

This form has morphed into so many different varieties that it's difficult to know where it came from and what the original was. I've learned 4 very different versions of it (all looking like the same general pattern). Furthermore, you talk to some Yamani Ryu folks - who hold the bo VERY differently - and they'll tell you that everyone's weapons are bastardizations off their original ways...

It's all good to me.

Speaking of Yamani Ryu... When you get to camp in August, spend some time working with John Hassel on the Yamani Ryu Shushi (Shugi) no Kun. Instead of holding the bo in thirds, they hold it more like a club. The body mechanics necessarily need to be very different, and in my view are much more helpful for tapping into Western ways (our baseball bat mentality) and ways we could be using our bodies in empty-hand forms. Even if you know Shuji no Kun, walk into John's class assuming you will learn a completely new form, because...you will!

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:36 pm

From an article on Taira Shinken:
http://www.okinawakobudo.com/content/me ... taira.html

Taira first wrote about Ryukyu Kobudo in 1938 when he contributed a chapter to Nakasone Genwa’s Karatedo Taikan (Encyclopedia of Karate-do) [21]. In his chapter, Taira demonstrates Shushi / Kongo no kon and lists the following bo kata: Shushi no kon, Sakugawa no kon, Yonegawa no kon, Shirotaru no kon, Tsuken bo, Sunakake no kon, Teruya no kon, Choun no kon, Shichiyanaka no kon and Sesoko no kon. Ever the diligent researcher, Taira points out that many variations of each kata exist on Okinawa.

The bolded emphasis is mine. So there was apparently quite a bit of variability even 70 years ago. But variation is the norm in the martial arts, even moreso then than now I would say. Given the need for each martial artist to personalize what they learn so it actually works for him/her, you would expect quite a bit of variability in forms/techniques with the same name. It is the cookie-cutter practitioners of today that are likely outside the reasonable norm for martial arts.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:54 pm

Indeed.

I have a variation of Tsukenshitahaku no Sai I do that I wouldn't trade for ANY other version I've seen in print. It was taught to me by an Okinawan Uechika years ago, and has an extremely advanced way of doing many of the movements.

Thoughtful interpretations and expressions of HOW things are done are the most helpful in this variability.

- Bill

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:26 pm

One of the most instructive ways to train in bo for me is to break out of always doing it with the standard tapered rokushaku bo. I've found that you really have to get a feel for what you're doing and why you're doing it when you have to modify it for different 'sticks'. I've used a thin 4ft dowel rod, thin 5ft tapered bo, standard 6ft tapered bo, thick 6ft straight bo, hoe (about 4 1/2ft), rake (about 5ft), bamboo poles of various thicknesses (all roughly 6ft), and a thin solid metal pole (about 5 1/2ft). Anything with any length, and I have probably done Matayoshi Shushi no Kon with it, even a katana once. All of these have different weights, feels, and characteristics, and you have to adapt what you do accordingly.

This has a practical value too in that if you ever do get in a situation where you are armed with a stick in a confrontation, odds are you will not have that favorite bo you always work out with. You never know what kind of stick you might have to fight with.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:40 pm

John Giacoletti wrote: What about Cho un no Kun? Who is Cho?

I've always heard that Choun no Kon was a descriptive name relating to clouds, not a person's name.

According to http://www.aoinagi.org/glossary/agloss_view_all.cfm it means "butterfly cloud".

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:55 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote: Speaking of Yamani Ryu... When you get to camp in August, spend some time working with John Hassel on the Yamani Ryu Shushi (Shugi) no Kun.- Bill

Shinko Matayoshi also had ties to Yamani Ryu. One of his bo instructors was Sanda Chinen (also called Usumei Yamani) who was a relative of the founder of Yamani Ryu. According to a couple of sources, including the glossary I linked above and http://www.kobudokwai.sk/History_1.htm Chinen Sanda was who created Shushi no Kon.

Also according to this last link, the one bo instructor was named Ryuko Shiishi, not Ryuko Shushi...which if true means he was probably who taught Shiishi no Kon to Matayoshi.

So we could say, albeit not with full certainty, that Sanda Chinen created Shushi no Kon (among other kata), Ryuko Shiishi created Shiishi no Kon, and the creator of Choun no Kon has been lost to the sands of time.

Being left-handed, I am intrigued by the description of Chinen's Yonegawa no Kon as left-handed.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:28 pm

I knew if I searched long enough I'd find an online video of the Matayoshi version of Shushi no Kon:
http://www.wyka.co.uk/SSNKv1.WMV

and then here is the one from above again so you can compare the two:
http://www.cfts-karate.co.uk/kata_movies.php

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:34 pm

Take a look at this old video clip showing the founder of Isshin Ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku, performing a version of Shushi no Kon:
http://www.americanisshinryukarate.com/ ... i_Kata.m1v

f.Channell · Post by **f.Channell** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:05 pm

I train this Kata from an old instructor who learned it from Robert Trias.
He wrote a book on Kobudo and I'm sure the history is in there.
But I'm sure there is probably more than one history as there are so many versions.
In the Trias system this is the second bo kata after Sakugawa no kun.
Then Shushi no kun. Then Sakugawa no kun Dai. Then Shushi no kun Dai. etc..... There are 1-2 more bo kata.
My tape is old and faded but after corresponding with Trias daughter found she had the same old worn tape. I like the kata, they have a nice feel to them.

F.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:09 am

The Kata - Shi Shi No Kon Dai of Isshinryu is a different kata than Shu Shi no Kun.

Joe Swift has pointed out that the Shishi no Kon no Dai of Shimabuku Tatsuo is based upon the Soeishi no Kon Dai of Taira. It does vary of course and there is on documentation whether Shimabuku Sensei changed it, or whether it was Tara Sensei (who had different variations on his kata too.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:58 am

Quite right, my fault. There are so many bo kata with names similar to this and I wasn't paying close enough attention to this one being spelled Shishi rather than Shushi.

Shu Shi no Kun

Shu Shi no Kun

Re: Shu Shi no Kun