Another thing I wanted to ask about for a long time...
I'm not a mystic or any kind, not even a little bit, so the whole mystical chi thing is like "blah...blah...blah" to me (no disrespect intended to anyone - I have a science background and that takes a lot of fun out of magic), but I have noticed a couple of cool things that happen to me occassionally when I'm really in the zone and wanted to see if anyone knew any science behind it or how to get more of it.
So sometimes when I'm really grooving in my katas and being exceptionally focused and primal, I get 3 things happening:
1. my peripheral vision expands and I'm aware of more of the room and whats going on in it.
2. everyone's actions around me seem to slow down as if they're doing all their moves slower (making it easier to for example block one of their punches or trap a kick)
3. the palms of my hands heat up (??) That really puzzles me.
I've heard this happens to other people too, lots of people for the peripheral vision thing, but I personally know 2 other people that get "slow mo" and "hot hands".
So, what's going on here in a "western science" point of view? And I kind of like it and I can't get there with a lot of consistency...Anyone know how to get to this state more often and deeper?
getting in the zone, expanded peripherial vision, etc
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Rob Kolenc
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If you go into fight mode, you're probably not focusing on any one thing, so you're more aware of your peripheral vision. I.E., most people gaze through the opponent's solar plexus. That makes everything seem in slow motion because you already see all the body parts. You don't have to take the time to take your focus off his eyes and refocus on the jab that's coming at you. In addition, your mind is probably clearer since you're not distracted by the details of his face, etc. Less distracting thoughts means you react faster.
It sounds like that's what you're talking about? even though you're doing kata.
It sounds like that's what you're talking about? even though you're doing kata.
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Rob Kolenc
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Ironic that I'd get back to the forum today, read the question, and I had gotten an explanation for that today. The answer I got was all brain based.
Central vision is mostly handled by the frontal lobe. So, peripheral vision comes towards the forefront of perception. You'd be shutting down your frontal lobe so as to function quicker. Basically, if you're consciously trying to punch, you punch much slower. The same goes for blocking and responding. The now faster actions are done with pathways that have been more highly myelinated due to repitition. These actions also have alot more to do with cerebellar activation instead of frontal lobe activation... Kind of a round about way of saying the frontal lobe is shutting down so you can act quicker, acting on "instinct" and learned muscle patterns. This has a side effect of decreasing perception of the central field of vision. The warmer hands are also a side effect from the decreased frontal lobe activity as frontal lobe function helps decrease sympathetic tone. So decreased frontal lobe activity will increase sympathetic tone. Slightly increased sympathetic tone will cause increased blood going to the extremities such as the hands. Greatly increased sympathetic tone will decrease blood flow to the hands. But the after effect of greatly increased sympathetic tone, if temporary of course, is temporary vasodilation in the hand, which will probably feel like warmer hands.
Now the reverse... if you completely focus on your opponent's hands... See how easy it is for him to hit you versus if you weren't focusing on any part or parts of him in particular.
Adam
PS Nice to be back on the boards after my graduate college hiatus.
Central vision is mostly handled by the frontal lobe. So, peripheral vision comes towards the forefront of perception. You'd be shutting down your frontal lobe so as to function quicker. Basically, if you're consciously trying to punch, you punch much slower. The same goes for blocking and responding. The now faster actions are done with pathways that have been more highly myelinated due to repitition. These actions also have alot more to do with cerebellar activation instead of frontal lobe activation... Kind of a round about way of saying the frontal lobe is shutting down so you can act quicker, acting on "instinct" and learned muscle patterns. This has a side effect of decreasing perception of the central field of vision. The warmer hands are also a side effect from the decreased frontal lobe activity as frontal lobe function helps decrease sympathetic tone. So decreased frontal lobe activity will increase sympathetic tone. Slightly increased sympathetic tone will cause increased blood going to the extremities such as the hands. Greatly increased sympathetic tone will decrease blood flow to the hands. But the after effect of greatly increased sympathetic tone, if temporary of course, is temporary vasodilation in the hand, which will probably feel like warmer hands.
Now the reverse... if you completely focus on your opponent's hands... See how easy it is for him to hit you versus if you weren't focusing on any part or parts of him in particular.
Adam
PS Nice to be back on the boards after my graduate college hiatus.
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Bill Glasheen
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The "slow mo" you are experiencing is a desireable thing. The proper term is tachypsychia.
Other perceptual distortions can occur under extreme stress. Once during a gun fight, someone wondered why he saw beer cans slowly rotating towards him with the word "Register" clearly printed on the bottom of them. It turns out that these were the shells coming out of his firearm.
A perception of a fatal threat can kick your body into a serious altered state, often referred to as the survival stress response. Most martial artists only dream about getting into such states in the dojo, and learning how to make the most of it. It generally takes some extra work to set such a situation in motion.
Warm palms is a sign that you are relaxing. That's a good thing. When the poop hits the rotating propeller, you want to be capable of managing the survival stress response. Meditation, training techniques in repeptition, and breathing exercises can get you there.
- Bill
- WikipediaTachypsychia is a neurological condition that distorts the perception of time, usually induced by physical exertion, drug use, or a traumatic event. It is sometimes referred to by martial arts instructors and self defense experts as the Tachy Psyche effect. For someone affected by tachypsychia, time preceived by the individual either lengthens, making events appear to slow down, or contracts, objects appearing as moving in a speeding blur. It is believed that tachypsychia is induced by a combination of high levels of dopamine and norepinephrine, usually during periods of great physical stress and/or in violent confrontation.
Other perceptual distortions can occur under extreme stress. Once during a gun fight, someone wondered why he saw beer cans slowly rotating towards him with the word "Register" clearly printed on the bottom of them. It turns out that these were the shells coming out of his firearm.
A perception of a fatal threat can kick your body into a serious altered state, often referred to as the survival stress response. Most martial artists only dream about getting into such states in the dojo, and learning how to make the most of it. It generally takes some extra work to set such a situation in motion.
Warm palms is a sign that you are relaxing. That's a good thing. When the poop hits the rotating propeller, you want to be capable of managing the survival stress response. Meditation, training techniques in repeptition, and breathing exercises can get you there.
- Bill
Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Mon May 08, 2006 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Rob Kolenc
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
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Bill Glasheen
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- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
If you're a science guy, Rob, then you should know a thing or two about analogue to digital conversion.
We make a lot of assumptions about time. We assume time is a constant when - from a relativity point of view - it is not. We assume our perception of time is the same when - from a neurological point of view - it is not.
Most TV cameras sample at 30 frames per second. That works for most real-world purposes. But once I was a subject of a TV ad where they sampled me doing a spinning hook kick at 100 frames per second to my partner. They then played it back at 30 fps, giving the impression of tachypsychia.
Your own brain does an analogue to digitial conversion process. Real world analogue signals are converted to frequency modulated pulses, which is a digital expression of the analogue world. Your brain can "sample" at different frequencies, depending upon the need.
For the most part, life is booring. Why would we want to make a conversation with a dull person interminably long?
And why wouldn't we want to bring in as much information as possible when our life is on the line?
- Bill
We make a lot of assumptions about time. We assume time is a constant when - from a relativity point of view - it is not. We assume our perception of time is the same when - from a neurological point of view - it is not.
Most TV cameras sample at 30 frames per second. That works for most real-world purposes. But once I was a subject of a TV ad where they sampled me doing a spinning hook kick at 100 frames per second to my partner. They then played it back at 30 fps, giving the impression of tachypsychia.
Your own brain does an analogue to digitial conversion process. Real world analogue signals are converted to frequency modulated pulses, which is a digital expression of the analogue world. Your brain can "sample" at different frequencies, depending upon the need.
For the most part, life is booring. Why would we want to make a conversation with a dull person interminably long?
And why wouldn't we want to bring in as much information as possible when our life is on the line?- Bill
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Rob Kolenc
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- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Hi Bill, thanks. Ya, I had to catch the train just as I saw your post come up...
I usually get to that state when I'm thinking really violent thoughts as i'm doing my katas.. ie I'm imagining an attacker in front of me. He wants to kill me and I want to kill him. I'm visualizing that I'm looking at their neck (not their face), I'm not thinking about the moves, the only thought in my mind is "kill the guy".(see my recent thread on post traumatic stress
)..and depending upon how deep I get into that visualization, the peripheral vision, "slow mo" and hot hands thing lights up.
So that tachypsychia comment makes sense - I'm lighting that up with my imagined violent confrontation. And I'm not thinking about the moves (frontal lobes), just going back into "flight or fight response" (limbic system? its been 20 yrs since University...). Didn't know that the brain can change its sampling speed depending on the situation. Sure would also be nice to "speed up time" when at a boring social function.
I usually get to that state when I'm thinking really violent thoughts as i'm doing my katas.. ie I'm imagining an attacker in front of me. He wants to kill me and I want to kill him. I'm visualizing that I'm looking at their neck (not their face), I'm not thinking about the moves, the only thought in my mind is "kill the guy".(see my recent thread on post traumatic stress
)..and depending upon how deep I get into that visualization, the peripheral vision, "slow mo" and hot hands thing lights up.So that tachypsychia comment makes sense - I'm lighting that up with my imagined violent confrontation. And I'm not thinking about the moves (frontal lobes), just going back into "flight or fight response" (limbic system? its been 20 yrs since University...). Didn't know that the brain can change its sampling speed depending on the situation. Sure would also be nice to "speed up time" when at a boring social function.
I thought tachypsychia only happens during extreme stress? Can you actually cause it just by doing katas?
When I do the things I described, I get the slo-mo effect, but it's definitely not tachypsychia I'm completely relaxed, not at all stressed. That is, unless you can call up tachypsychia at will?
When I do the things I described, I get the slo-mo effect, but it's definitely not tachypsychia I'm completely relaxed, not at all stressed. That is, unless you can call up tachypsychia at will?
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Bill Glasheen
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I think it's a rare gift to be able to alter our perceptions in a perceptable manner.
Contemplate that thought for a second...
It is however possible. The questions are:
1) Who is capable of doing this?
2) Under what conditions?
3) To what degree?
I find I can induce a touch of tachypsychia just by doing lots of time in the highest-speed batting cage, or by driving ridiculously fast. In other words, challenge your senses and you will know how to reach down inside and find another level of ability. This would be high-road control of said abilities. Meanwhile the amygdala can induce it when the lower brain detects an imminent survival situation.
Some major leauge baseball clubs work with pitching machines that throw numbered tennis balls at 150 mph. The goal is not only to be able to put the bat on the ball, but also to read the number on the ball. Believe it or not, it can be done by elite athletes who train long enough. These batters then are the kind who can read the spin on a baseball, and know exactly where a breaking ball is going to end up.
I cannot speak for Rob, and what he is experiencing. I am just taking his thoughts at face value.
- Bill
Contemplate that thought for a second...
It is however possible. The questions are:
1) Who is capable of doing this?
2) Under what conditions?
3) To what degree?
I find I can induce a touch of tachypsychia just by doing lots of time in the highest-speed batting cage, or by driving ridiculously fast. In other words, challenge your senses and you will know how to reach down inside and find another level of ability. This would be high-road control of said abilities. Meanwhile the amygdala can induce it when the lower brain detects an imminent survival situation.
Some major leauge baseball clubs work with pitching machines that throw numbered tennis balls at 150 mph. The goal is not only to be able to put the bat on the ball, but also to read the number on the ball. Believe it or not, it can be done by elite athletes who train long enough. These batters then are the kind who can read the spin on a baseball, and know exactly where a breaking ball is going to end up.
I cannot speak for Rob, and what he is experiencing. I am just taking his thoughts at face value.
- Bill
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Rob Kolenc
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- Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:10 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Well guys if you think I'm some kind of martial arts expert/matrix guy - you can just forget about it. !! !! !! I'm sure many (most?)of you can blow me right out of the water with your technique and skill. And I'm not a street fighter at all.
Bill, re:
The questions are:
1) Who is capable of doing this?
2) Under what conditions?
3) To what degree?
In no particular order:
As for the degree of slowing things down...the BEST I've had in a workout was a slow down to maybe 1/2 of regular speed and that's been extremely rare - maybe 2-3 times in my life in really focused and extreme workouts and only held for a couple of seconds. 2/3rds normal speed is more attainable but still quite rare and fleeting - I need to be really amped up and focused but still peacefully hostile (if that makes any sense to you). I usually can't hold it through a complete kumite. Definitely noticable and helpful but not "reading the writing on a baseball" kind of stuff. Not even close. That's why I was curious about how to get more. I've experienced it enough to know that it's there, but more would be good!
As far as describing the conditions more/better...The first/easiest thing to experience for me is the increased awareness/peripheral vision (pretty easy), then come warm hands (harder to get to but not hard - and I perceive no value to this anyway), then slo mo (tough) in that order as I get deeper into a peaceful "kill or be killed" state of mind. I'm definitely not thinking (as in strategy) but trying to get to a state where I feel threatened by someone who wants to kill me and its very desireable to hurt/kill them. Then I just let the kata or kumite moves go with full visualization of impact.
There is another time I experienced the "slo mo", it was a lot more pronounced and it was in a non-karate situation.Once when I was a young kid, I was playing on an icy road, and I fell just as a car was barrelling towards me. The car was coming towards me, horn going off, snow flying...and everything slowed wwaaaayyyy down (in this one case much much slower than half normal speed) and my mind became really peaceful...like "I think I'm going to die now and that's okay"
Fortunately the car missed me...because dying is definitely not okay! Cripes, if my parents would have known, I would have got it good!
So, it sounds like I can pull up a more vivid imagination than most ...and this helps trick my body into feeling like I'm in a real fight...and that perhaps triggers the tachypsychia??
So who can do it? Personally, I think almost anyone would be able to do this if you wanted to. (Just stand in front of an on-coming car). I know two other people who get this effect in karate, and one of them gets it far more pronouced than I do. I don't think it's a "gift", but I don't know how to get there without some really nasty visualizations. That's my next goal I guess.
So, if it is tachypsychia, it would be nice to turn it on, and turn it on consistently without all these unpleasant thoughts! Turn up the "good" turn down the "******" as my kids like to say.
!! !! !! I'm sure many (most?)of you can blow me right out of the water with your technique and skill. And I'm not a street fighter at all.Bill, re:
The questions are:
1) Who is capable of doing this?
2) Under what conditions?
3) To what degree?
In no particular order:
As for the degree of slowing things down...the BEST I've had in a workout was a slow down to maybe 1/2 of regular speed and that's been extremely rare - maybe 2-3 times in my life in really focused and extreme workouts and only held for a couple of seconds. 2/3rds normal speed is more attainable but still quite rare and fleeting - I need to be really amped up and focused but still peacefully hostile (if that makes any sense to you). I usually can't hold it through a complete kumite. Definitely noticable and helpful but not "reading the writing on a baseball" kind of stuff. Not even close. That's why I was curious about how to get more. I've experienced it enough to know that it's there, but more would be good!
As far as describing the conditions more/better...The first/easiest thing to experience for me is the increased awareness/peripheral vision (pretty easy), then come warm hands (harder to get to but not hard - and I perceive no value to this anyway), then slo mo (tough) in that order as I get deeper into a peaceful "kill or be killed" state of mind. I'm definitely not thinking (as in strategy) but trying to get to a state where I feel threatened by someone who wants to kill me and its very desireable to hurt/kill them. Then I just let the kata or kumite moves go with full visualization of impact.
There is another time I experienced the "slo mo", it was a lot more pronounced and it was in a non-karate situation.Once when I was a young kid, I was playing on an icy road, and I fell just as a car was barrelling towards me. The car was coming towards me, horn going off, snow flying...and everything slowed wwaaaayyyy down (in this one case much much slower than half normal speed) and my mind became really peaceful...like "I think I'm going to die now and that's okay"
Fortunately the car missed me...because dying is definitely not okay!
Cripes, if my parents would have known, I would have got it good! So, it sounds like I can pull up a more vivid imagination than most ...and this helps trick my body into feeling like I'm in a real fight...and that perhaps triggers the tachypsychia??
So who can do it? Personally, I think almost anyone would be able to do this if you wanted to. (Just stand in front of an on-coming car). I know two other people who get this effect in karate, and one of them gets it far more pronouced than I do. I don't think it's a "gift", but I don't know how to get there without some really nasty visualizations. That's my next goal I guess.
So, if it is tachypsychia, it would be nice to turn it on, and turn it on consistently without all these unpleasant thoughts! Turn up the "good" turn down the "******" as my kids like to say.
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Rob Kolenc
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I don't think its tunnel vision but vision is definitely different...more like I see the outsides better than the middle. Compared to normal vision, my eyes would tend to be somewhat out of focus.
Motor skills - in one sense as an observer you might say I seem more effective than earlier in the class because my speed improved. You would probably think I'm doing a better job getting off a hit or block. On the other hand, now that you mention it, I think I do lose some fine motor skills because I'm managing a bit of an adreneline dump.
I haven't been aware enough to hear my hearbeat or listen for it.
Motor skills - in one sense as an observer you might say I seem more effective than earlier in the class because my speed improved. You would probably think I'm doing a better job getting off a hit or block. On the other hand, now that you mention it, I think I do lose some fine motor skills because I'm managing a bit of an adreneline dump.
I haven't been aware enough to hear my hearbeat or listen for it.
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Bill Glasheen
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You guys are commenting on the right issues.
Notice, TSDGuy, that he's talking warm palms. Warm palms is NOT associated with the survival stress response. So if we believe Rob is experiencing what he says he is (we'll assume it...) then it may or may not be associated with tunnel vision. Already he's telling us that it's not with his increased visual field. That too is indicative of a state of calm awareness, and not a stress response.
Make sense?
I'm willing to accept that a world class batter (a David Ortiz, Coco Crisp, Albert Pujols, Derek Jeeter, etc.) might be able to achieve a unique, controlled state where tachypsychia is pro-active rather than re-active, and they are relatively relaxed. What these elite athletes must do is respond to a hyper-fast event (a speeding baseball) with a precise motion (hitting it straight with a bat). So they must have a touch of tachypsychia while maintaining some fine and complex motor coordination.
I first achieved this kind of state at Bogie's Sports Park one day when the batting machine broke. I put in one token, and the machine gave me unlimited 80 mph fastballs. So I had a long, long time to settle down in front of the machine and swing at literally hundreds of pitches - right and left handed. Ever since then, I've found it easier and easier to just relax in that cage and see the balls like I've never seen them before. The balls get slower, they appear bigger, and I am totally zoned in a happy place.
FWIW, my most dramatic moment ever of tachypsychia was during a motorcycle accident (1977). It was a most amazing experience. A car pulled out in front of me when I was going faster than I want to admit. What took probably seconds seemed to happen over a period of minutes. And thanks partially to this Darwinian-given temporary ability, I walked away from what eventually transpired.
I wish I could reproduce those abilities to that level at will...
- Bill
Notice, TSDGuy, that he's talking warm palms. Warm palms is NOT associated with the survival stress response. So if we believe Rob is experiencing what he says he is (we'll assume it...) then it may or may not be associated with tunnel vision. Already he's telling us that it's not with his increased visual field. That too is indicative of a state of calm awareness, and not a stress response.
Make sense?
I'm willing to accept that a world class batter (a David Ortiz, Coco Crisp, Albert Pujols, Derek Jeeter, etc.) might be able to achieve a unique, controlled state where tachypsychia is pro-active rather than re-active, and they are relatively relaxed. What these elite athletes must do is respond to a hyper-fast event (a speeding baseball) with a precise motion (hitting it straight with a bat). So they must have a touch of tachypsychia while maintaining some fine and complex motor coordination.
I first achieved this kind of state at Bogie's Sports Park one day when the batting machine broke. I put in one token, and the machine gave me unlimited 80 mph fastballs. So I had a long, long time to settle down in front of the machine and swing at literally hundreds of pitches - right and left handed. Ever since then, I've found it easier and easier to just relax in that cage and see the balls like I've never seen them before. The balls get slower, they appear bigger, and I am totally zoned in a happy place.
FWIW, my most dramatic moment ever of tachypsychia was during a motorcycle accident (1977). It was a most amazing experience. A car pulled out in front of me when I was going faster than I want to admit. What took probably seconds seemed to happen over a period of minutes. And thanks partially to this Darwinian-given temporary ability, I walked away from what eventually transpired.
I wish I could reproduce those abilities to that level at will...
- Bill
