Tests reveal 'hit and miss' brain

[Bill Glasheen]

My points are made, and I thought pretty self-explanatory.

If there's something you think I'm missing, I'll step aside on this one.

- Bill

[Stryke]

sure , no harm no foul eh !!

I learnt much martial arts from Rugby , and sidesteps are valid in context , as long as there not backwards .

[Bill Glasheen]

[Willy]

Hey I learned how to slap by watching them throw in rounders mate.

I bet if Bill learned it all in BB he swings a mean sword that's damn near impossible to jump over.

[fivedragons]

One of these days, (when I finally get to the point where I really don't give a sh#t ), I hope I get attacked by five heinous thugs in a convenience store and get filmed breaking them all into screaming blobs of feces and tears. When I do, I'll make a special point of backing up all over the place, just so I can come on here and point at the video and say that in reality there is always a place for adaptation, improvisation, and variability.

Perfection is what we are, underneath the mountain of crap that we seem to like to collect and wallow in. the "discipline" is just a tool to help us find, appreciate and understand what we were born with.

How do I defend myself, if I don't even know what I am defending?

[fivedragons]

Here's a tssst.

[Willy]

sorry to side track things folks interesting conversation

[Willy]

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Odd how people can get fairly functional in Muay Thai, combatives or BJJ but karate "takes a life time" to get the basics.
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I don't buy it, Mike.

First, Muay Thai and BJJ are both sports. Good luck trying to equate that to self-defense. Last time I checked, there are no gloves or mats on the street.

Check this out Bill

http://download.yousendit.com/94E511BC42D97A72

It would appear the US army does not agree with you. What do they know you don't?

[Stryke]

[Bill Glasheen]

Laird

When I click on your hyperlink, I don't get a video clip. Fix it and I'll gladly look at your reference.

I'm familiar with how the US Army and the MCMAP draw from myriad sources. On the flip side, neither of them worship at the altar of the latest martial fashion.

I know what Muay Thai is. A person (Mack Fischer) who studied and taught Uechi beside me back in the 1970s practiced it and Burmese kickboxing (See Bando and USA Bando). He also was voted UVa's most valuable intramural boxer two years in a row. He was the real deal. He introduced yours truly to boxing, and many of the concepts that quite frankly are buried right in the Uechi style.

The big difference though is that Uechi Ryu centers around martial practices at the time of the Boxer Rebellion where equipment was a means to an end, and not vice versa. Boxing and Muay Thai are all about what goes on in the ring; that is the focus of their practice. It doesn't mean they can't fight. Quite the contrary. But it does mean that you have to step back and separate useful from outright silly practices when trying to transfer that knowledge either to self-defense or to hand-to-hand combat.

I'm also familiar enough with BJJ. If you came to Uechi Ryu camp at Buzzard's Bay, you would have seen my son and I on the mats with Joey Pomfret, and you would have seen me in one-on-one matches both with Joe and one of his top grappling students. I lasted a few minutes... More to the point, I understand the value of the practice.

I don't feel compelled to bash my core because I found effective training elsewhere. Quite the contrary, I just keep absorbing, and re-evaluating the essence of the core that I still understand and value.

The military programs do the same, Laird. They have seminar with top MMA fighters, do pugil stick training, practice ad nauseum on the firing ranges to <ahem> perfect their shooting skills (measured via accuracy at hitting the target), etc., etc. If you come on down some time, you should get Rich to take you out to the range. His shooting skills will blow you away, as well as his knowledge of how to apply them in self-defense and combat.

I agree with many of the ideas being brought up by Mike. But I repeat - there's still no excuse for sloppiness and ambivalence. Do what you mean, and mean what you do. Whatever you do, do it well. And that includes being flexible (in the figurative sense), creative, adaptable, and sensitive to your surroundings.

- Bill

[Stryke]

Bill your continue to bring up sloppiness and bashing , no ones done either

all were discussing is efficeincy . Pad work , testing and variation , do not equate to either of these things .

you claim to get it , and then you claim it`s a dis ..... your an oxymoron Bill

[mhosea]

When I click on your hyperlink, I don't get a video clip. Fix it and I'll gladly look at your reference.

You just have to click on the "download now" button, but you've probably seen it before. I had. Basic idea is that they start with ground grappling because it is easier to teach and to learn. TMA/striking is not expected to improve fighting skills in the short term.

It concurs with the view that long study and practice is required to develop effective striking technique, but I guess Laird posted it because of the grappling part.

[Bill Glasheen]

Bill your continue to bring up sloppiness and bashing , no ones done either

I believe I found this in the very first post, Marcus.

do certain kinds of traditional karate training and ideals make us slower and less effective by trying to get us to be consistent? What do all those "sloppy" but effective karate masters know that the picture perfect ones don't?

That covers the "sloppy" part.

Here are a few case of "bashing"

Odd how people can get fairly functional in Muay Thai, combatives or BJJ but karate "takes a life time" to get the basics. What do they know that we don't?

That's not bashing karate vis-a-vis these other activities?

Since when do people get "fairly functional" faster in Muay Thai, combatives, and BJJ than they do in karate?

How to train effectively and realisitcally . Punching the air faster isnt for punching power , sparring isnt coreographed to death , variation and expirementation is the norm and not the exception ..... did I miss anything

Let's see now... BJJ, Muay Thai, and combatives instructors know this, but karate people don't. That's not bashing karate?

All this makiwara and heavy bag equipment... Did the aerobics women bring them in the dojo? Maybe I missed something...

I`ll be amazed if you can talk about process without getting any more of topic and resorting to your usual tactics .

That's not personal bashing?

What are the "usual tactics?"

And then it briefly degenerates into "tssst" comments. I think that's a dis, although I'm not sure. It's an inside joke I guess.

No biggie on that one. I believe Laird was just having a bit of fun at our expense.

you claim to get it , and then you claim it`s a dis ..... your an oxymoron Bill

I've been called worse.

See my first post.

At the risk of repeating myself... My belief is that variation is completely natural (even obvious and perhaps at times desirable), but not an excuse for sloppiness. You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. That's what we do here.

- Bill

[MikeK]

Bill your continue to bring up sloppiness and bashing , no ones done either

I believe I found this in the very first post, Marcus.

do certain kinds of traditional karate training and ideals make us slower and less effective by trying to get us to be consistent? What do all those "sloppy" but effective karate masters know that the picture perfect ones don't?

That covers the "sloppy" part.

Here are a few case of "bashing"

Odd how people can get fairly functional in Muay Thai, combatives or BJJ but karate "takes a life time" to get the basics. What do they know that we don't?

That's not bashing karate vis-a-vis these other activities?

Since when do people get "fairly functional" faster in Muay Thai, combatives, and BJJ than they do in karate?

How to train effectively and realisitcally . Punching the air faster isnt for punching power , sparring isnt coreographed to death , variation and expirementation is the norm and not the exception ..... did I miss anything

Let's see now... BJJ, Muay Thai, and combatives instructors know this, but karate people don't. That's not bashing karate?

All this makiwara and heavy bag equipment... Did the aerobics women bring them in the dojo? Maybe I missed something...

I've been called worse.

See my first post.

At the risk of repeating myself... My belief is that variation is completely natural (even obvious and perhaps at times desirable), but not an excuse for sloppiness. You are perfectly welcome to disagree with me. That's what we do here.

- Bill

First of all Bill if I was interested in bashing karate I would have posted those links to the videos that I found on YouTube, remember them? They were so bad that I didn't even mention them on the forum. So I take offense at being tagged as bashing karate.

I am questioning some of the training methods of karate that have people perfecting things that don't seem to do much of anything except take up time better spent elsewhere. And yes Bill, in my experience many karate people do not seem to get as functional as fast as people in BJJ, Muay Thai, MMA and any form of training that is more hands on. And doing 1 thousand Hangetsu kata won't change that.

On being sloppy. Please notice that the word sloppy in my post is in quotes. I've noticed that some of the best people at making things work will have imperfections in their techniques.

I don't buy it, Mike.

First, Muay Thai and BJJ are both sports. Good luck trying to equate that to self-defense. Last time I checked, there are no gloves or mats on the street.

So the street looks like a dojo with people running around barefoot in white canvas pjs who bow before fighting? C'mon Bill.
Why is it that Muay Thai and BJJ are taken more seriously as useful arts in self defense? Let's face it, no matter how much we love various styles of karate those arts are being pushed to the periphery of serious martial arts by these "sports", why is that?
Could it be that while we're looking for techniques hidden in the kata, those guys are working and developing high percentage techniques on the mats?

Goodnight Gracie.

[Stryke]

USE THAT BRAIN MAN !!!!

Read again Bill i`m not bashing the style but training practices

hitting thigs versus hitting air

testing things on a non compliant parther in variation vs coreographed drills

You say you`ve been there done that , and in the next breath say I dont get it ?

if you really have then you know why and how this stuff works and that karate can be practiced this way , without being sloppy .

Sloppy boxers and BJJ guys dont last to long either .

Now if you disagree my generalisations arent in some ways accurate, then I seriously must question your judgement , and your experience in these other venues you claim to have done .

if we cant discuss training approaches without it being style bashing then theres not much point talking MA at all is there ?

For the record , I do karate and promote it , I dont make excuses for it , it doesnt need it .

Since when do people get "fairly functional" faster in Muay Thai, combatives, and BJJ than they do in karate?

It depends on the training styles , and the culture of training styles is generally preferable in the BJJ and Muay thai/boxing gyms Ive seen

NB training styles not technical styles .