The State of the Martial Arts

[TSDguy]

I was thinking about how Bill sometimes refers to MMA being the latest "fad" of MAs, like ninjitsu or kung fu or judo have been (which I disagree with-- I think Stryke said "MMA is an evolution, not a fad.") So mostly to entertain myself and maybe you, I went through some of the possible fads that are up and coming or have been around and what I think will happen with each. I also listed a highest level, as Pride has a lot to do with MMA being huge. This is the part of the trend that everyone focuses on and imitates.


Specializing in the individual components of MMA - TKD is the most popular style in the world. Boxing has been around for eons. BJJ gained huge popularity a few decades ago. My thoughts are that these are always going to be popular amongst the casual MAist who may simply not have enough time to train the complete game.

Highest level: Boxers and NAGA etc. This is where it lost out to MMA for good in my opinion. Why watch some who is at the top of the game at kicking OR boxing OR grappling when you can watch George St. Pierre who is at the highest levels of kicking AND boxing AND grappling.


Martial Arts for health and healing – As in Tai Chi, Qigong, etc. While the population gets fatter and lazier, these low impact health programs could hold some appeal. On the other hand, there are basically two kinds of people; those that want to stick to an exercise program and those that won’t have the self discipline to. The ones that are dedicated to exercise will soon realize that 30 minutes of MMA (or some other high energy exercise like tennis or aerobic kick boxing) is going to get you into better physical condition than 30 minutes of breathing exercises. The others will quit any exercise program no matter how low impact it is. I think this is doomed to senior citizens.

Highest level: David Carradine’s PBS specials.


Military Martial Arts - These programs have been around for a while, and seen varying degrees of success, from Krav Maga to the suspiciously scam looking civilian boot camps. Let’s toss out the frauds and concentrate on the legit. These are never going to be in the limelight for two big reasons.

a) Appropriateness. At the simplest level, militaries are for killing people. Sometimes soldiers need to shoot first and ask questions later, while civilians should ALWAYS ask questions first and shoot later (even if you move through the process very quickly.) Basically, it may not be appropriate to call in an air strike on the drunken guy harassing your wife. Strip away what makes military martial arts useful for the military and you’re left with MMA (and RBSD).

b) Training requirements. In the military, running 10 miles in combat boots in the mud as a warm up or training near real speed with real bayonets on live targets is required, because, well, you’re going to need to do that on the battlefield. A civilian MA school that trains with bayonets is never going to be popular, and you’d have to seriously question the credentials of the instructors before you agreed to do something like that.

Highest level: The military, which isn’t always compatible with office life.


Extremely athletic or artistic Martial Arts – Things like capoeria, Wushu, and ‘California style’ TKD. I see this as a cousin to MMA. They’ve been popular for several decades, and have progressed to the point where they are completely ingrained into society without competing with MMA. They also translate very poorly into competitions, so we won’t see these take over the UFC timeslots.

Highest level: Video games, movies, and some regional/world trick tournaments. These fancy moves are the fantasy version of MAs that are just plain fun. Movies may take a swing towards more realistic fighting, but they always swing back, particularly in Hong Kong.


Traditional Martial Arts – Without checking numbers, it seems obvious there are far more people in kung fu and karate schools than in MMA schools. They’re always going to be around, and there is no reason to eliminate them completely. However no individual style, no matter how fantastic, will ever have the spotlight again.

Highest level: Students who want to expand their game and test what they know. A judo guy thinks what he knows is great, but does it work on a karate guy? In this sense, MMA is the solution to traditional martial arts. MMA doesn’t care what you call your style; it only cares if it will work on a resisting opponent with as few rules as can safely be used.


Reality Based Self Defense – Another up and coming trend. This has several drawbacks. The current cost of the equipment and training is high, but so is a good BJJ school. The sexiness factor is definitely not here. MMA reeks of dominance and sexiness, but talking your way out of a fight, or learning how to protect your head when you’re on the ground being beaten to death by 5 guys with bats is not sexy. I think the biggest drawback is people just don’t want to think about this stuff.

Highest level: Self defense courses like SPEAR, police training. These are sort of along the lines of the military MA programs in that they don’t appeal to the average citizen.


Weapons – This could get interesting. This is the one way to make Mixed Martial Arts MORE mixed. To an old school Tai Chi-ster, it’s too dangerous to allow head stomps and forearms with no padding, but MMA does that. Is it too outrageous to allow stick fighting? Staff fighting? Nunchucks? I don’t know. So far the Dog Brothers haven’t exactly caught on, but this is my pick for a future popular trend, especially since it seems to be very slowly gaining acceptance.

Highest level: Kendo schools? Kali demonstrations? I’m not sure. If this ever gets a TV tournament it could take off.


Any other ideas?

[gmattson]

I completely agree with everything you said.

The TMA will always be around, but will never regain the popularity or following it had in the 70s and 80s.

[AAAhmed46]

My only arguement is that MMA may stagnate.

Oh it will always be full contact with as relaxed rules as possible.

But not enough people will try to innovate, because do succeed they may not have time to experiment, they can only stick to what they know for sure.


Like people look at Chuck's punches and are amazed.

But I can see CLEAR TMA body mechanic. While all styles diliver mass, there is something chinese about his striking(probably from his Kempo background)

Thing is, will this catch on and spread? WIll we see more of this stuff?

Or will we see MMA now settling into where it is now?



GSP comes from a karate background though, so thats a plus for TMA.

[f.Channell]

Here's looking through MMA from the eyes of a martial arts businessman.

In the lucrative male market between ages 18 - 34, Tito vs. Shamrock outdrew its sporting competition in that time slot. What event did MMA out draw? It was none other than the opening game of Major League Baseball's American League Playoff Series. MMA drew 10% more viewers. Folks, that is unprecedented. Considering the first UFC in 1993 pulled in 80,000 PPV buys, which was impressive at the time, MMA is now off the charts.

This from a recent business e-mail I received.

So what you may see is TMA schools dropping forms, belts and gi's and trying to cash in on this.
Some of the largest Karate schools in the USA already have.
Perhaps this might benefit the serious TMA schools? Time will tell.

F.

[RACastanet]

b) Training requirements. In the military, running 10 miles in combat boots in the mud as a warm up or training near real speed with real bayonets on live targets is required, because, well, you’re going to need to do that on the battlefield.

But it is so much fun!

I am personally headed toward my own mix of Uechi-ryu, Marine-ryu (MCMAP) and Gunteacher-ryu. Also am developing 'High School Teacher'-ryu and have about ten female teachers involved. Verrry interesting.

Rich

[Jake Steinmann]

My only arguement is that MMA may stagnate.

Oh it will always be full contact with as relaxed rules as possible.

But not enough people will try to innovate, because do succeed they may not have time to experiment, they can only stick to what they know for sure.


Like people look at Chuck's punches and are amazed.

But I can see CLEAR TMA body mechanic. While all styles diliver mass, there is something chinese about his striking(probably from his Kempo background)

Thing is, will this catch on and spread? WIll we see more of this stuff?

Or will we see MMA now settling into where it is now?



GSP comes from a karate background though, so thats a plus for TMA.

Those who stagnate in MMA will lose to those who don't, just like any other sport.

Will there be those who keep training the way that fighters trained 3, 4, 5, 10 years ago? Sure. But ultimately, they will fall behind those who keep experimenting and pushing themselves forward.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that those who succeed don't have time to experiment; a full-time, professional fighter has plenty of time to experiment. Indeed, that's part of their training.

Likewise, a good coach will constantly look for ways to improve his fighters, and that means experimentation as well.

If what you're asking is "will we see fighters drawing on traditional martial arts?" I suspect the answer is some, but not many. MMA is transforming into it's own sport...something that is more than the sum of it's parts. You're seeing the beginnings of that evolution even now, where fighters are learning to be MMA fighters from day one, not Muay Thai fighters who then learn Brazilian Jui-jitsu and how to sprawl. It's becoming its own game.

Which, incidentally, is the one place where I disagree with TSDguy's analysis; GSP is not a world class boxer, kickboxer, or grappler. He's a world class MMA guy, which is becoming it's own thing.

[TSDguy]

I agree with you; I probably phrased the second part of that sentence slightly wrong. His kicking, grappling, and punching are all world class. As you expanded on that, his pieces all work together in a way that is completely different from the individual sports.

[Bill Glasheen]

I think this is a great discussion. However the one thing I'd like to point out is a flaw in your analyses.

This reminds me a bit of discussions about computer languages, or even music. On the computer language end... They used to say that Cobol was dead. C is the next thing. But then came Y2K. Reams and reams of code needed to be re-built so we didn't have the date problem. The experts said that Cobol was history.

So what happened? If you were a superb Cobol programmer in 1999, you could write your salary. They couldn't hire enough of them. There were jokes about it in Dilbert, where just being able to say the word "Cobol" meant you were guaranteed a job and a high salary.

Here's the thing. As soon as someone invented a language in academia or industry which could do something new, Cobol evolved so it could do that too. But Cobol also never lost its identity and niche. It is what it is, and serves a purpose for which the language was designed to fulfill.

C is supposed to be dead today as well. But then came C+. Then C++. Then C sharp. And then complex modeling software that wrote its own C code when you got the models down.

Study boxing in the US. It has evolved quite a bit from the early bare-knuckle days. Now we have rules, and better equipment, and safety measures, and laws, and organizations, and Olympics, and... and...

We have legions of discussions on the various Forums over what "real" Uechi Ryu is. Some form an identity over being the closest link to what Kanbun did. Some wrap themselves around tournament activity. Some are in to making new choreography. Some cross train. Some emphasize fitness. Some link up with the military. Etc., etc. "It" is a moving target.

The "fad" element of MMA in my view has to do with what society will do to it once it works the kinks out. Ultimately the law, liability, and propensity to get hurt will come into play. Already what we have isn't like what got started in the beginning when the Gracies were dominating. And I suspect it will change further.

Furthermore... "It" is just about the dual in a ring. "It" is a niche, and nothing more. "It" will probably do just fine, but its popularity IMO will wane somewhat over time. New martial fads will evolve out of all the other ways we can entertain ourselves with the art of conflict.

Martial Arts for health and healing – As in Tai Chi, Qigong, etc.

***

I think this is doomed to senior citizens.

I would expand upon and change this a bit.

IMO, Karate Do as opposed to Karate Jutsu aptly fits into a broader category here.

Consider the timelessness of books such as Sun Tzu's The Art of War or Musashi's Book of Five Rings. Even though we no longer wage war the same way as in Sun Tzu's time or square off with katana, what they have to say is still useful today.

Packaging is important. Making martial practice relevant to the every-day person is important. The fact of the matter is that few of us will ever need to engage in a multiple-opponent assault situation. However we all can benefit from ukemi. We all can benefit from understanding how to perform under stress. We all can benefit from an activity which shows our weaknesses, and challenges us to do the best we can with what we have. And many of us love to compete.

Karate Do is a bit like taking your sword and turning it into a plow. If you acknowledge it for what it is, it is always useful to you. You can always go in myriad directions with it.

This is also why I brought up the music element. Some of my favorite Rock musicians were obviously classically trained. (Obvious to me, anyhow...) I listen now to "classic rock" pieces that endure. And when I listen, I can hear the keyboard player who did Beethoven. I can hear the guitarist who understands melody and chord progression theory. Yea, 3-chord rock bands will always come on the scenes and make a lot of money. For a while... But IMO, there's always a place for good instruction. Mastery of fundamentals rules, and will never let you down.

Think about what Olympic ice skaters do to prepare themselves. Heck, they're dancing and doing gymnastics. That's a regular part of their routine. Go figure...

From my perspective, I see clusters of interest. These clusters will evolve over time. Hollywood and television will embrace and reject from day to day. Fads come and go - mostly because this generation always wants ITS OWN identity. (Got a teenager in the house? ) But I still see an underlying persistence within the clusters.

- Bill

[mhosea]

The thing about TMA is that it's not just for athletes and professional fighters, yet most of the time nowadays the discussion of fighting arts is heavily skewed towards what athletes can do with them. It's a beautiful thing that TMAs like Uechi-Ryu can be practiced by almost anyone to some benefit, usually both mental and physical.

[TSDguy]

MMA isn't inherently more athletic than TMA, unless you count that many TMA schools train to grappling on non-resisting opponents. But that is simply incorrect training and is irrelevant.

Training at a school dedicated to cranking out UFC champions will have a higher physical demand on you, but ideally your average MA school picks up the lessons that the elite MMA schools show off (like resisting opponents.)

[AAAhmed46]

GSP has a heavy karate background, and credits it.

Look how he walks out before a fight, he wears a karate gi and a headband.



Bill, MMA is not a fad, it's here to stay, and may take the lead And when the next generation of youth becomes the majority, the bread earners, I fear TMA may face hard times. I dont say this with happiness, im pretty much a TMAist. Just that it will happen.

[mhosea]

MMA isn't inherently more athletic than TMA, unless you count that many TMA schools train to grappling on non-resisting opponents. But that is simply incorrect training and is irrelevant.

Training at a school dedicated to cranking out UFC champions will have a higher physical demand on you, but ideally your average MA school picks up the lessons that the elite MMA schools show off (like resisting opponents.)

Well, eclectic TMA schools have been around for a long time. This isn't the same thing as MMA just because they teach both karate and jujitsu. The "MMA" I see is inherently driven by competition, just like boxing. You box until you're too old (usually still young in terms of lifespan), and then if you want to stay in the sport you help train those who are still young enough to fight. I could be wrong. It's not really my scene, so maybe there is an "MMA for Everyone" school around the corner with seniors class at night kicking each other in the knees, hitting each other in the head (with headgear on, of course), and doing takedowns for sub grappling.

[TSDguy]

I could be wrong. It's not really my scene, so maybe there is an "MMA for Everyone" school around the corner with seniors class at night kicking each other in the knees, hitting each other in the head (with headgear on, of course), and doing takedowns for sub grappling.

You're not familiar with the Gracies?

[TSDguy]

@ Bill and all:

The reason MMA won't leave the spotlight is because it's fixing what is wrong with TMA.

A lot of people claim that grappling is in karate (and then proceed to get ripped in half by MMAers ). A lot of people also claim that before MAs were brought to the West, it was expected that you train in grappling if you were karate guy and vice versa. Certainly all of the senior blackbelts from the East in my original TSD organization had high degree black belts in Judo or Yudo (and a huge list of other styles), and they encouraged me to do the same.

Many TMA schools became so wrapped up in tradition and heritage that they thought anything not in their katas was unecessary.

Many styles managed to come up with a lot of nonsensical movements and attacks because they were never tested against someone who didn't care about your blackbelt.

WHOOPS, Karate got really screwed up over the past several hundred years. Time to shave off the BS with some trial by fire. MMA is the fix for all of the missing information.


There are now people who make a living picking out every teeny tiny little hole in your style. If you can't fix it, they'll exploit it.


Sure, MMA has changed, and will continue to change. It's evolving and hopefully will never stop. But unless we want to de-evolve, it can't ever go away.

[AAAhmed46]

I love MMA.

BUT....i made the mistake of putting MMA fighters on pedestals for a while.

Lets not forget, that what we see in the UFC/PRIDE is the best of the best.


Bas rutten once said on is forum"If you ever fight a good full-contact karate fighter, dont stand with him, their good! Take him down!"

Now that statement is in the context of how well a karateka can stand and fight.



Yeah there is alot of crap karate/kung-fu around...including uechi-ryu.