Goju Sanchin Kata "Gone Wrong"

Kuma-de · Post by **Kuma-de** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:13 am

The Wrong way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJVz98apRq8

The correct way (Both these men are in their 70's):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5cXnt0 ... r_embedded

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:42 pm

On the first Sanchin shime demonstration, I knew we were in for an absurd demonstration the second I saw his stance.

Sanchin kata is kind of like the shomen geri. For years I kept hearing people say "Front kicks suk; they don't work." Well... that's because most people don't know how to throw a front kick. It actually has more complex motor coordination than a simple roundhouse kick. Some skill required. Same with the Sanchin. Most of the Japanese karate people I know think Sanchin is a useless stance. Well... if you stand deep and knock-kneed like that bozo - asking for an ACL tear if you ever tried to do a sport with that kind of knee alignment - then you too are going to think the stance suks. No, dear, you don't stop the groin kick by bringing your knees in; you stop it by keeping the knees properly aligned, tucking the pelvis, and flexing the adductor muscles.

Then there is the a$$hole "testing" this student who doesn't know what he's doing. Truly a case of the blind leading the blind. Just because you beat the &$%^ out of someone doesn't mean you're teaching them anything.

In the second Sanchin shime demonstration, the stance is correct and the person testing the kata practitioner knows what he's looking for. Nuff said.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:21 pm

Front kicks do work and work well...they can be a deadly strike, especially with the Uechi Sokusen.

Kuma-de · Post by **Kuma-de** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:12 pm

Bill Glasheen wrote:On the first Sanchin shime demonstration, I knew we were in for an absurd demonstration the second I saw his stance.

Sanchin kata is kind of like the shomen geri. For years I kept hearing people say "Front kicks suk; they don't work." Well... that's because most people don't know how to throw a front kick. It actually has more complex motor coordination than a simple roundhouse kick. Some skill required. Same with the Sanchin. Most of the Japanese karate people I know think Sanchin is a useless stance. Well... if you stand deep and knock-kneed like that bozo - asking for an ACL tear if you ever tried to do a sport with that kind of knee alignment - then you too are going to think the stance suks. No, dear, you don't stop the groin kick by bringing your knees in; you stop it by keeping the knees properly aligned, tucking the pelvis, and flexing the adductor muscles.

Then there is the a$$hole "testing" this student who doesn't know what he's doing. Truly a case of the blind leading the blind. Just because you beat the &$%^ out of someone doesn't mean you're teaching them anything.

In the second Sanchin shime demonstration, the stance is correct and the person testing the kata practitioner knows what he's looking for. Nuff said.

- Bill

Well Said for an "old guy" Bill

Bill, many people ask me why I bother leaving comments on such pages. Here is his youtube page:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RenshiKF

He may be the nicest guy in the world and may be well intentioned but his quality of MA is very poor.Hey, I'm not the MA police but I think that it is up to all martial artists of higher caliber to at least try to lead them to proper instruction. Sadly, in Mr. Fookes case he does not want to be told that his training is lacking. I too, am not the best at Goju & Shorin ryu but still seek training from my seniors. Some say "Why Bother?" My reply is that one has to protect their ryu-ha or in 10 years there will be nothing but these practitioners!

But he is up there with Mr. Calasanaz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooPklyaSWqI

who espouses that he trained with and received his black belt credentials under Sakamoto Soke and Okinawa Seito Karatedo Shirenkan Goju Ryu of the Dominican Republic. See his bio on their Cuban web site under "Maestroes":

http://fano-okgks.galeon.com

You'll note the diatribe between the Calasanz and a visitor stating that he only made Orange or Green Belt with Sakamoto Sensei.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:30 pm

Kuma-de wrote:

But he is up there with Mr. Calasanaz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooPklyaSWqI

Wow. I mean, WOW!!!

Pretty simple here - all GO and no JU.

I could go on and on and on about this. My dissertation opened my eyes up to how breathing affects all the other body systems. Long story...

Here's my assessment as a martial artist and systems physiologist.

In order to keep from bursting a blood vessel AND in order to maximize cardiac output with your breathing. the resistance X time of the exhale must be match by the resistance X time of the inhale (more or less). This causes a net zero intrapleural pressure over time, thus not taxing the cardiovascular system in any way. In fact if you do it right, you actually "milk" the heart.
In order for the Goju to make RBSD sense, the circles should be done with inhales and the pushes should be done with exhales. Why? When you flinch, you reflexively inhale along with your amygdala-driven protective movement. Follow that with an exhale and thrust from your low-brain-driven inhale and "block", and your conscious training fits in with your unconscious response like hand-in-glove.

That's the theory anyhow. Now go back and look at that video, and see if they did what I said. (Two guesses, and the first doesn't count.)

- Bill

IJ · Post by IJ » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:55 pm

Train wreck! Enough of those videos flying around and people won't believe any martial arts are real, perhaps it's all just a bunch of constipated guys in ninja suits and sneakers. I am embarrassed for my species!

Bill, it sounds like you're saying if you match volume in and volume out you're ok. Am I reading you right? Seems like you could still force the exhalations and stress the system by matching a very high resistance exhalation to a high resistance inhalation. And is there much of a purpose for such artificiality in breathing? I'm beginning to think that stuff that just looks totally different from what looks like real fighting is probably worth neglecting.

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:39 pm

Speaking of over zealous testing, has anybody ever had the experience of being tested in sanchin by Mr. Takamyagi? Something you don't easily forget.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:57 am

IJ wrote:
Bill, it sounds like you're saying if you match volume in and volume out you're ok. Am I reading you right?

No, that's not it at all. Volume in MUST equal volume out or you blow up (or implode).

IJ wrote:
Seems like you could still force the exhalations and stress the system by matching a very high resistance exhalation to a high resistance inhalation.

Bingo!

The lungs are driven by the intrapleural pressure. That goes up and down with movement of the breathing muscles (diaphragm, intercostal muscles, etc.).

You can amplify the waxing and waning of the intrapleural pressure by resisting the exhale with a narrowing of the epiglottis (hiss) and resisting the inhale with a narrowing of the nostrils (sniff). If the resultant sine wave of intraplerual pressure is equally positive and negative, then you won't be increasing the mean blood pressure with this dragon breathing.

OK?

What you will be doing though (among other things) is "milking" the vena cava with this amped-up sinusoidal intraplerual pressure. With all the one-way valves in the system and the myriad pressure receptors throughout, this will result in an enhanced (and cyclic) cardiac output. And of course you'll have enhanced gas exchange in the lungs as well.

If you do all this right, you can be huffing and sniffing away in a dynamic tension Sanchin, and finish it feeling energized.

- Bill

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:07 am

Josann wrote:
Speaking of over zealous testing, has anybody ever had the experience of being tested in sanchin by Mr. Takamyagi? Something you don't easily forget.

Mr. Takamiyagi's reputation precedes him.

Bruce Hirabayashi told me that when Mr. Takamiyagi was in Germany, he became infamous for driving his sokusens into people's legs during Sanchin testing. A couple of days of this and students stopped getting in Mr. Takamiyagi's line to have their Sanchins checked.

Many, many years ago, Mr. Takamiyagi was testing students in a school where David Finkelstein happened to be training. Dave was so upset by what Mr. Takamiyagi was doing to students that he constantly asked to have his Sanchin tested. (Dave may have been a Harvard law grad, but he could be tough.) He kept doing this again and again until Mr. Takamiyagi threw his hands up. When asked later on why he did it, Dave said "I was trying to break his ****ing hand." That's my Dave! (Who BTW was the 2nd of my 3 Uechi teachers.)

There are other stories.

I have heard reasons why he does this, but that's all hearsay. His actions speak for themselves. And there's certainly no reason for us to defend such actions.

Sanchin checking is not supposed to be a display of egos, or a vehicle for a teacher to abuse students. It should be about bringing out the best in the student, and guiding the student to a better end product. The checking is feedback, and not punishment or pain endurance.

- Bill

Josann · Post by **Josann** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:23 am

Quote: There are other stories.

I watched Takamyagi test his own son years ago at Walter Mattson's dojo in Framingham and I remember thinking it's not just us he's trying to show something to. I believe his son was 13 at the time and an ikyu. I guess there's no DSS in Okinawa. I remember being confused because none of the other Okinawan seniors - Takara, Omine, Nakahodo, Higa, etc were like him.

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:19 pm

Josann wrote:
none of the other Okinawan seniors - Takara, Omine, Nakahodo, Higa, etc were like him.

Mr. Takamiyagi was "testing" Bob Campbell's Sanchin on an Okinawan dan test just after Bob successfully competed in the All Okinawa Tournament. Shinjo Seiyu was so incensed at what he was doing that he got up, grabbed Mr. Takamiyagi, tossed him aside, and did the checking himself. (Story told to me by Bob Campbell himself.)

It's worth noting that Shinjo Seiyu knows a thing or two about developing a good fighter. Do his students get hit hard? Absolutely - in formats where you can give what you are given. Sparring matches in the Kadena dojo were legendary, as was the partner conditioning. Gratuitous abuse in Sanchin by a teacher wasn't part of the curriculum.

The bad part of all this is when junior students copy the behavior and begin beating on their own students in kind. At some point this has to be stopped. This is why I am putting myself "out there." Don't like it? Fine. This also is a Forum where you can give what you are given.

- Bill

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:59 pm

No, that's not it at all. Volume in MUST equal volume out or you blow up (or implode).

Well said, Bill. This is the one problem we have seen many times on the floor, where candidates for Dan rank, become somewhat stressed...force their performance...build up adrenaline...and barely breathe with a 'lisp sound' supposedly after an effort move.

So we see so many interesting changes of color in their faces. It's a wonder we haven't seen any cardiac arrests on the floor up until now.

Something here from the past

The following sums up "proper breathing" as validated by Scott Sonnon's research:

1. Exhaling on the stroke makes your impact more solid, creates a hard wall in your body in case you catch a counterblow, and it gets rid of carbon dioxide.

2. Focusing on the exhale is the best way to give commitment to your actions from a mental viewpoint.

3. By properly exhaling during a strike your are constricting your lungs, thereby causing more power with a wider range of movement capability.

4. You are controlling the adrenaline built up in your body to be released with greater exertion while exhaling, versus keeping it pent up inside during inhalation.

Scott?

All points concur with my research and methods.
_________________
Fraternally yours,
Scott Sonnon

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:03 pm

Van

Constrained exhalation should serve to pressurize the torso in a way that supports the spine, without blocking the air, and thus absorb peak moments of stress.

Scott?

Beautiful! Love to know this author!

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:06 pm

Sonnon

Performance Breathing involves two primary points:

On compression, allow an exhale; on expansion, allow an inhale. Notice I wrote “allow” – not create. This is what I mean by calling my one video course on the topic Be Breathed . I did not call it Start Breathing nor did I name it Learn to Breath more effectively. I didn’t even call it Breathe !

Your goal is to be breathed by the motion of your movement and structure. As you bend over, a natural compression forces the air out of your lungs. As you stand back straight, the air naturally ***** back into your lungs as your thoracic cavity opens.

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:10 pm

Sonnon

-->1. Passive Exhalation on Compression
-->2. Passive Inhalation on Expansion
-->3. Active Exhalation on Effort
-->4. Passive Inhalation on Relaxation