Since you're such a tough guy...

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:22 am

ATH mentioned in the other thread that there is a willingness to adapt what we teach in school for children but no same accomodations are to be made for women.

Please note that I'm trying to be contrary here - what I'm going to say isn't sugar coated.

That being said:

I know mostly men read these forums and I'd really love to hear some honest answers about why: (and this is all from personal anecdotal experience)

1) You avoided me for every partner excercise until I was a brown belt.

2) When you did conditioning with me it was with a smirk on your face because I couldn't hit you hard enough. (of course, now, your face and arms turn red because, at least in this drill, I can hit you harder than you can hit me.)

3) You never bothered to learn how to control your power because if I really wanted to learn I would need to be shown "how it would really happen"

4) Instead of exploring your own ability to fight without power you just made me do the same power drills over and over knowing that they'd never really work (see #3) (conversely, if I ever did manage to get in a good tag you had to hit me back harder than any reasonable person would need to just to show me who's still going to win in the end)

5) You told me this was a half soft style but you never bothered to learn that part and so you can't teach that part so why the heck would I pay for a whole style when I'm only get taught 1/2 (or worse yet a 1/3 of one? (This comment is based mostly on seminar experience - don't want you all thinkinng I'm bashing my own teacher here. Bob Kaiser is a good man and has been a good teacher to me for 5 years.)

I understand this seems like a big ole guy bashing rant. But I can tell you that each of these things has happened, some many more times than just once.

But hey - I should just apologize for slowing down your training, right? And thank you for the precious few moments when you shuffled over to work with me because all the other (male) partners were taken.

No, it's not all of you. I hope to God that it's not most of you. But it's enough of you to have left a bitter taste in my mouth. That as a lesser person I would take out on the new male students by showing them how a "real" woman can hit hard, take a shot, and take you down in the end.

I don't do that. I treat all new students with the same respect my teacher showed me.
Which sometimes means doing conditioning or kumite with someone who will help me with my teaching skills, instead of my limb bashing skills.

Dana

(see what happens when I can't sleep?)

david · Post by **david** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 12:11 pm

Dana,

#3-5. I would say that, though changing, a significant number in the Uechi dojos couldn't teach you another way because all they know is the exercise of straight on power, even when it's futile power against much greater power. I had the same problem when I started. In fact, what I have learned in dealing with discrepancy in power (mine being less than most as a small person), I learned outside of Uechi. I am glad to see more options being explored these days that I think would work for a smaller person.

#1-2. Away from Uechi, I encountered the same thing in the aikido dojo's. Cliques happen. If you're not in one because you're a newbie, well, you're dirt and no one except another beginner wants to train with you Of course, I had more senior aikido students who cranked a little bit extra to show me "who's the boss" when they worked with me. I found this even more disturbing than what I had encountered in Uechi since learning aikido waza requires more "cooperation" early on.

This may be a "mea culpa." I don't train very differently with males or females. I try determine where his/her skills are at and work them near the edge of it. Frankly, I have run into woman who are physically stronger than me. I even ran into one that wanted to take my head off whenever we train. Actually, she did the same to everybody, so I tended to pair off with her more rather let someone else. Problem is when she got tagged, she was not all too happy... Maybe more accommodation can be made, but I expect the person to speak up. Having said that, I know "speaking up" is frown upon, if tolerated at all, in certain settings. Then, it's time to find another setting.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited January 19, 2002).]

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Sat Jan 19, 2002 1:43 pm

This is a difficult issue , I try train equally with men and women but will admit to finding it awkward .

If i go full out im over agressive , intimidating and overpowering , If i hold back I get all the why are you holding back not taking me seriously guff , The fact is i hold back on most men , but lots of women cant see this , also ive noticed a tendancy for women to compensate for there size by being overly aggressive , the only real counter to the one upmanship in intent quite frankly is to knock them on there ....

This is something id never do , and they wonder why when they hit you you smile ....

On the other side of the coin , the best sparring i get to do is with a female blackbelt 5 foot nothing and 50-60 pounds lighter easily , its pure technical combat no size and power ever really entering it , If it was introduced it would be a mess but we both know where we are coming from so its fine .

so there you go a few honest thoughts before i even thought of being pc hope that starts things going .

Stryke

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:57 am

Dana, I've never even considered what a women in the dojo encounters. Never thought they might need special consideration other than private dressing rooms etc.

I've always treated women the same as men. Treated them like small men. And until they reached a level of proficency I was not interested in training with either.

When I was a member of a dojo I always tried to partner up with an individual who trained hard and pushed me. I always sought out a partner who was stronger and more skilled than I.

This was an important step in my development. I was not looking to teach I was not looking to assist and I never coast through class. I was looking to be pushed to my limit to be hit hard and to find my limits and extend them.

I also expected my partner to let me know what they need from me. (eg harder, soft,faster,slower etc.) If the partner was not coperative I avoided them in the future.

A young male with no skill always resorts to power on power. What else would we expect from young kyu ranks.

I rarely worked out with women,they didn't fit my needs. I did not consider theirs.I was selfish,concerned only with my physical growth.

Also I was uncomfortable striking women. Call me a dinosaur but sorry my culture raised me with this big tabboo about hitting women. Well it's part of who I am like it or not . So a women partner was a problem.

Ok lets spar. We sparred no hands to head,bareknucle. Hell chest protectors had they been invented yet? I don't know. All I know was I wasn't going to punch the young lady in the breasts. No head contact ,okay I get to kick to the legs, go for the belly.In the mean time most of the gals seemed quite intent in ensuring I would never father a child

.

Just didn't seem to be a level playing field.

Please take no offence from my comments. This is who I was and I would have avoided training with you back then.(keep in mind this has 25 years ago)

It also sounds like you worked with many class A jerks while you were comming up.

I'm sure the smirking partner is long gone and your still here.

Let me assure you that I would not of been smirking but have been asking for more. When we encountered big power mismatches sensei would allow round house kicks to the arms so both parties still got benifits from the conditioning.

Your points on half soft yielding deflecting techniques are well taken. We may have a young lady join our little training group in the near future.

I hope I can ask for some advise from you if she does join. I would hope to offer her a positive experience that meets her needs.I would wish to try to eliminate the negative experiences that you have shared with us.

I am surprised to read of what you have put with.

And as all the young bulls grow old you may have the last laugh. Spending so much time meeting power with power.

In the mean time you have focused such attention to the soft unbalancing side of things.

As the bulls grow old and weak they will nolonger be able to meet power with power. They will then need to learn the half soft side of our style.

Just think of the justice if they seek you out to enhance these skills. Will it not be fun tipping us on our heads as part of the learning process.If we really want to learn we have too experience it .

Thanks for sharing this. I spent a great deal of time trying to show you the other side of point 1&2. Your post has opened my eyes to many of the frustrations a female student may encounter thank you.

Laird

[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited January 19, 2002).]

david · Post by **david** » Sun Jan 20, 2002 12:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
When I was a member of a dojo I always tried to partner up with an individual who trained hard and pushed me. I always sought out a partner who was stronger and more skilled than I.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is also a real dynamic and leads to some women being overlooked (because of perception of "power discrepancies).

Perhaps a related experience. In my first several months in aikido, I ended up pairing up with a high ranking female dan student/assistant instructor in a class. I had picked up ukemi pretty fast (some gymnastic classes when I was younger) and was able to take the "high falls." For the whole hour, I was being slammed with high flying throws. I kept up but was frankly pretty tired by the middle to last quarter of the class -- taking ukemi is actually more strenuous then doing the throws. After that class, I got sick as a dog for a week. Can't help but think the slamming took a lot out of me and suppressed my immune system. When I came back the following week, the woman came up to me and said, "Gosh, I am glad to see you back! Thought I caused you to quit." I should have probably spoken up when I felt tired. Maybe it was a macho thing. But, I would like to think that I was just pushing my envelope. I know afterwards that more of the advanced students seemed more willing to train with me.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited January 20, 2002).]

dmsdc · Post by **dmsdc** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 3:44 pm

Laird , Stryke, and David, thank you all for your responses. I appreciate your honesty.

Part I
A lot of the avoidance seems to come out of the idea of who can one train with in order to improve. In the mind of a young man looking to train martial arts -- better seems to mean faster, harder, stronger, tougher. Techinque? Only if you have can't make something work through power. Then it's time to go learn some technique.

Women need to be clear about the messages they send their training partners. We need to speak up if we're getting hurt, and if we need to go harder, and we need to do both in an open, honest way. Baiting a guy into hitting you harder doesn't set up the right idea.

I understand that men are raised not to hit females. However, on the breast issue: Our upper pectorals, for some -- our sternum, our stomachs, our side ribs, our heads, and our legs are not covered with breast tissue. If you have good targeting, and knowlege of female anatomy, you should be able to hit lots of places on a woman. And once you've training long enough as a woman you know that you're going to get cracked on the breasts as often a guy get kicked in the groin (I've been told this can hurt lots, even with a cup on).

As a woman I can say that sometimes when I get hit hard, I cry. It just happens. And that is VERY upsetting to most men on the floor. I can keep sparring with tears running down my face, but the image is too emotionally disturbing for most training partners.

Heck, I'm not what most would consider a "girlie" girl anyway. It just happens that if you crack me just right, I might cry. I'll still be in a good mood, even smiling... just crying. It's really an odd expeirence.

Part II
I hope that teachers out there are telling women that sometimes they are going to need two arms to block a strong man's leg or arm. Not just one.

For example -- at summer camp 2 years ago I met a 5' tall woman who was a brown belt. We were talking about kashiwa bunkai and the defense against the overarm attack. [please put aside for now the whole discussion about if anybody would every attack this way or not]

I asked her how she made it work, being so small. She proceeded to demonstrate for on a 6' tall guy, that she was going to stop his arm by reaching up on ther tip-toes to lay her fingers on his shoulder. She was shocked when she learned from both me and the guy that this was never, in a million years, going to work. I showed her a modified defense by letting the arm swing through, stepping off the line and attacking from the side. She was totally amazed and wanted to be sure it was OK to change techniques like that. I told her to start talking with her teacher about other techniques that she might be able to modify.

So you see there are women out there who think that the power techniques aren't working because they're not doing them right. They have no idea that they just can't overpower most men. Because their teachers either don't care enough or don't know enough to think about it from a woman's point of view.

Honestly, after seeing the disparity between male and female students at summer camp, I was very discouraged. Particularly the kyu rank women I met, were so tight, and so nervous about getting hurt, that they couldn't do decent technique to save their lives.

Maybe I should just tell women that Uechi-ryu, as a whole, isn't going to work for them (unless they're an aboslute tiger like Peggy Hess-sama) and they should just study another style.

Dana

[This message has been edited by dmsdc (edited January 21, 2002).]

uechiwoman · Post by **uechiwoman** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 6:20 pm

Don't give up hope yet!!

I too am looking for the half soft part of Uechi that I think can benefit both men and women. I very much enjoy the hard parts I have learned. I like delivering a strong front kick and a wicked punch. I love how conditioning has transformed my body. What I am seeking now is a greater understanding of the soft side Uechi has to offer. I have spent much time learning to transfer power I create myself into an opponent. I have not learned how to use my opponent's power against them except in sweeps. Stepping out of the line of attack has not been encouraged in most Uechi-ryu training and yet this is the very first lesson you learn in the sanchin turn Kanshiwa!! Many teachers are working on more and more ways to generate more force with each technique without the companion teaching of how to work with that force on the receiving end.

I think many people feel that a "modification" of a technique is a lessening of the technique. I view it as different technique appropriate to the situation. I know many training partners who continue to take the bruises on their forearms during sparring and dan kumite due to the conviction that they must stand their ground and block a very hard kick with a one-armed downward block. Somehow it is not "manly" to step to the side.

I too have seen women practioners who have been hit too early and too hard and have tensed up as a result. Their natural fluidity and quickness has been trained out. I think that as we come to understand how to move and still utilize what we have learned through sanchin training all will benefit. I hope to find other practitioners seeking the same.

Heather

david · Post by **david** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 6:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I asked her how she made it work, being so small. She proceeded to demonstrate for on a 6' tall guy, that she was going to stop his arm by reaching up on ther tip-toes to lay her fingers on his shoulder. She was shocked when she learned from both me and the guy that this was never, in a million years, going to work. I showed her a modified defense by letting the arm swing through, stepping off the line and attacking from the side. She was totally amazed and wanted to be sure it was OK to change techniques like that. I told her to start talking with her teacher about other techniques that she might be able to modify.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, I still can't make that work nor some of the moves similar to that in seisan bankai. Part of it is physical and part of it is mental. The latter because through the years I learned what I think are much better ways than what is being shown in the prescribed bunkai. The question comes back to whether the instructor can interpret and teach another approach.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Maybe I should just tell women that Uechi-ryu, as a whole, isn't going to work for them (unless they're an aboslute tiger like Peggy Hess-sama) and they should just study another style.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think a major point of this thread is to spark interest and discussion about among the instructors on how they can make the style and the practice more amenable, suitable and accessible for women students. Going to another style may be the solution or a replication of the same. Of course, If I were a new student, I would look to see others who are similar to me and observe how they do before joining .

You mentioned some of the modifications you practiced and teach. It may be well worthwhile to talk to Bob and/or GEM to examine techniques/bunkai from the female perspective and to teach them in way that largely works for them. For IUKF, I am pretty sure GEM is amenable to having to explore and develop alternatives. It's in keeping with this forum and "laboratory" approach he has taken at the "Hut." Summer camp would be an ideal place to show some of the new interpretations.

david

david · Post by **david** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 6:33 pm

Heather,

Just saw your post. Agree. I submit both of you should talk to GEM about looking at developing other approaches within the style.

david

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Mon Jan 21, 2002 9:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I understand that men are raised not to hit females.

I think it is a bit more than that. It is more related to the natural instinct of protection and propagation of the species. History tells us of warriors killing the men, but raping and subjugating the women for child bearing.

And the problem is compounded with the teaching of behavior to young girls, to look to others to protect them, to not fight, and by a developing mind set for the woman to remain child like and care free__ the so called Peter Pan mindset

This is the basic subliminal message perceived by the male, which makes it hard for him to feel comfortable hitting a woman no matter what the rationalization.

Plus the fact that most women, by nature, are not built to take heavy punishment with the exception of a few.

All this weighs on a man’s mind, when squaring off.

I could never bring myself to hit a woman during a sparring match as hard as I could hit a man, unless I did not like her personally,

in which case all those natural impediments disappeared. There are still a few I’d love to hit full blast and sweep the dojo floor with, but I digress.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

I hope that teachers out there are telling women that sometimes they are going to need two arms to block a strong man's leg or arm. Not just one.

This advice applies to women as well as men. If we watch Nakahodo sensei do kata, it becomes apparent.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

They have no idea that they just can't overpower most men. Because their teachers either don't care enough or don't know enough to think about it from a woman's point of view.

true. The problem is compounded by the way prearranged kumite and bunkai are practiced. The Toyama group relies more on taikawashi than any force on force. Still, power strokes are necessary to hit and stop an opponent in between heartbeats. If a woman neglects developing power strokes, then she has no business in taking Uechi-Ryu.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Stepping out of the line of attack has not been encouraged in most Uechi-Ryu training and yet this is the very first lesson you learn in the sanchin turn Kanshiwa!! Many teachers are working on more and more ways to generate more force with each technique without the companion teaching of how to work with that force on the receiving end.

Very true. A serious problem compounded by inept practice of prearranged work. Again, taikawashi or Tai sabaki are good concepts to internalize, for men and women.

Yet stepping into the line of attack with powerful preemptive blows is a survival skill that needs to be cultivated..It has to do with proper timing and “personal velocity” to hit the opponents innards as he barely touches your skin. There are times when you will not have the time or space to do much else.

------------------
Van Canna

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited January 21, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:26 am

Dana

Thanks for e-mailing me, and inviting me to this thread.

To any that may not know Dana, she is one of our Uechi ryu gems. I have known her (and her constant friend Heather) for years via Mid-Atlantic regionals and yearly Mattson camps. I also have had the privilege of getting down and dirty with her on the dojo floor. I can remember one session where we were engaged in various grappling maneuvers and quite literally were getting down and dirty. Dana is a pistol, and a joy to work with.

In my 14-year experience of teaching students at UVa, I always started with about a 60/40 ratio of men to women. After a few years though, it was down to about a 5 to 1 ration, in spite of my best efforts. But those that remained were a lot like the caliber and mindset of Dana. And those that remained had their war stories from both inside and outside the dojo.

Understand that I'm someone that encourages women to stay and participate. God bless those that are big and like power but...it takes no talent to be big. I am not impressed in the least by big people that hit hard - from an ability point of view. I just like having a few of them around so I can learn when they try to kick my butt. I am also not impressed with an instructor that engages in nothing more than a process of survival and Darwinian selection in the dojo. This isn't teaching, it's culling.

That being said, I believe there's a vital and unique role for women in a big dojo. Yes...they more than other people must learn how to apply skills like tai sabaki. They are the ones that - through our teaching - show us what works and what doesn't work from a technical standpoint. If I can get a modestly sized woman to make a technique work against a decent sized brute, then I know I have enough of an understanding to have a fighting chance when I face that 275 pound truck driver that wants to make the news at my expense. To me, that is the art of karate. The rest is just big and/or fast people beating the &*%$ out of each other.

All this gets even more important as we age. I have neither the time nor the joints to train with the intensity that I did when I was a graduate student (in the all-but-dissertation status) during late 20s and early 30s. Now...I have a different mantra. As I tell my son, Don't work hard - work smart. Work ethic is important, but I have other things I want to do in life too.

That being said, I have gained much as an instructor by having the likes of people like Dana in a karate class. Unfortunately that level of appreciation isn't always conveyed by the instructors who feel it, and it certainly isn't conveyed by many men who don't.

Van touched on a few of the male/female issues. I will tell you that some of what you feel, Dana, may actually come from male insecurity. Imagine what it's like for your average macho male (lots of them in a karate dojo

) having to deal with working out with the likes of you. The male ego is even more fragile than your emotions, Dana. Most men can't take being outdone by a woman (except for maybe some that might be into S&M). Much of the baggage you see comes from the insecurities. And then there is baggage that goes the other way too, Dana. Whether you realize it or not, a good proportion of women that enter a karate dojo come with their own baggage. Over the years, I've had a chance to share some of this with students that needed an ear. This plays into the whole dynamic, and people naturally tend to generalize.

Along the line of last to be picked, well...it's only natural for folks that want to get better to seek out folks that represent their worst fears on the street. The average male in the dojo isn't thinking of a female when attempting to learn to defend against bad guys. It's only natural for you to be neglected to some extent. Such is life.

As an instructor, I take great pains in seeing to it that folks work with all different sizes and shapes of people. I also make it a point (as was mentioned above) to see to it that individuals work to and are worked to their own limits - and no farther. This is an attitude that must be cultivated in a dojo. It takes a good instructor to cultivate that in all students. And it takes a good instructor to teach macho men that they have much to learn from the little folks in the class (that can make it work).

In closing, I have two things to say:

1) Vicki says hi and gives her very best.

2) Please seek me out in the regionals. I had a blast with you last time.

- Bill

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 1:16 am

So is thread going to discuss in any detail some solutions, drills etc.

Dana you've made it pretty clear your are frustrated by these experiences,we realise that other women of Uechi may be experiencing the same things.

So how do we fix it?

Respectfully

Laird

david · Post by **david** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
In my 14-year experience of teaching students at UVa, I always started with about a 60/40 ratio of men to women. After a few years though, it was down to about a 5 to 1 ration, in spite of my best efforts. But those that remained were a lot like the caliber and mindset of Dana. And those that remained had their war stories from both inside and outside the dojo.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we're not exempt from the effects of the socialization that happens in general. Though there are general expectations -- spoken and unspoken -- individuals do break out with their own ideals, hopes and aspirations for themselves. We find some of these mavericks in our dojo. We can try to support them and in the process contribute to whatever changes may be happening outside of the dojo. Recognize though that we are a minute part of the overall.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I am not impressed in the least by big people that hit hard - from an ability point of view. I just like having a few of them around so I can learn when they try to kick my butt. I am also not impressed with an instructor that engages in nothing more than a process of survival and Darwinian selection in the dojo. This isn't teaching, it's culling.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While martial arts practice can have many different benefits, it's rare for any one dojo to be able to meet the many varying needs/wants. Each dojo, led by the head instructor(s), takes on a particular spin or emphasis. Sometimes this spin is to the exclusion of others, or it can accommodate others to lesser degree. The fact is a "culling" of sorts always occurs. If it doesn't, I would be surprised and would wonder what such a dojo looks like -- probably one with many cliques -- each with it's emphasis -- ignoring if not disdaining the other for not *understanding* what the practice is about.

My own particular workout group has changed most members over the years. Most have a MA backgrounds and come from other schools/styles. This is the way I/we prefer. We don't get into doctrinal debates over styles and specific techniques. Rather we focus on drills leading to and including to freestyle. We each experiment with what we think works for each of us. This is the emphasis -- no more, no less. So, self-selection happens as do "culling."

Through the years, there were only several people I took from actual "beginner" level. One guy in particular is the brother of a friend from Uechi-Ryu -- big guy -- 6'1" and 200 lbs plus of solid muscle with an atheletic background. I trained him for five years in what works for me but also what I think would work for a big guy. I think he was gifted with better than average ability. He got good enough to dominate most folks in the workout group and gave me more than a run for the money. We had some tough sparring but still within the overall support and commaderie of our workout group. I encouraged him to find other sparring venues and challenges. He did and met up with someone who gave him quite a match. He was down on himself. I told him being beaten is a learning experience, better in a dojo than on the street. He went and sparred the same guy again. Same results but his time with a black eye. Afterwards, he told me he wasn't sure if wanted to continue training. I said okay, he should think about what he wanted. Later he stopped training. In the meantime, I went and checked out the guy he sparred with. We had a good match. The guy was somewhat crazy and pumped with steriod. ALong with physical, it was more mental than anything else. Whose was going to fold?

From that match, I think I understood why my "student" decided to quit, despite being quite good (in my opinion). He never met up with someone who had the mental state that would likely be encountered in a *real* street fight. It wasn't about scoring (no one was doing that) but a match pitting mindset against mindset. My student realized that he was not mentally tough enough. Rather than trying to learn more about it, he gave up. I initially tried to pursuade him to stay. But, ultimately, I let him go as he let himself go. Better that he learned in the dojo than on the street... He now trains and runs marathons. This allows him to test himself but doesn't pit him against another. That's fine. To thine own self be true.

Recently, another training partner, Debbie, has taken a hiatus. Having survived an aneurysm, she is taking time to evaluate her whole life. I miss her as she has been training with me nearly five years and we are very compatible as training partners. But support her need to step back and take a bigger perspective. A second chance is not something to take lightly.

I think we should try to accommodate as much as possible those who choose to train with us. We should encourage and allow them to find for what works for them and not just what works for us. At the same time, we can't be everything for everyone.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited January 22, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:18 pm

david

I think you touched on something really big here. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One guy in particular is the brother of a friend from Uechi-Ryu -- big guy -- 6'1" and 200 lbs plus of solid muscle with an atheletic background. I trained him for five years in what works for me but also what I think would work for a big guy. I think he was gifted with better than average ability. He got good enough to dominate most folks in the workout group and gave me more than a run for the money. ... He ... met up with someone who gave him quite a match. He was down on himself. I told him being beaten is a learning experience, better in a dojo than on the street. He went and sparred the same guy again. Same results but his time with a black eye. Afterwards, he told me he wasn't sure if wanted to continue training. I said okay, he should think about what he wanted. Later he stopped training. In the meantime, I went and checked out the guy he sparred with. We had a good match. The guy was somewhat crazy and pumped with steriod. ALong with physical, it was more mental than anything else. Whose was going to fold?

From that match, I think I understood why my "student" decided to quit, despite being quite good (in my opinion). He never met up with someone who had the mental state that would likely be encountered in a *real* street fight. It wasn't about scoring (no one was doing that) but a match pitting mindset against mindset. My student realized that he was not mentally tough enough. Rather than trying to learn more about it, he gave up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The truth is that most women deal with confrontations like this all the time in the dojo, whereas most men of average or better size are lulled into a mental comfort zone. The few big guys that eventually meet up with their match or better are humbled, and many find it difficult to take. It is only natural to feel mentally defeated. It is the essence of martial spirit to continue on.

I've had the opportunity to be challenged severely by more than a few talented instructors and training partners. I've also watched great champions repeatedly put their reputations on the line, and deal with losing. The emotional roller coaster can sometimes be more brutal than the physical beatings we experience. Ask a Gary Khoury or Margaret Chojin what it feels like to lose. Better yet, watch it yourself (but from a BIG distance...). Some of us are up to the challenges that can forge the spirit. Others never get it, or never want to get it. Who moves on? Who folds? What can instructors and mentors learn from this?

As I said before <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

see to it that individuals work to and are worked to their own limits - and no farther.

This is very much like trying to acquire a taste for hot (spicy) food. That pain tolerance threshold really doesn't feel good, no matter what others tell you. With capsaicin, it's pain in the mouth. With defeat and humiliation, it's pain of the psyche. But walking on that edge and pushing that line teaches us much, and increases our capacity to face adversity. (Sorry to steal some of your thunder, Van

). I believe there is a right way to do that. I believe women and smaller people in the dojo are pushed over the edge a little too often. I think a good number of talented and/or large men in the dojo never really experience the tempering process - at their peril on the street.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited January 22, 2002).]

david · Post by **david** » Tue Jan 22, 2002 7:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>With capsaicin, it's pain in the mouth. With defeat and humiliation, it's pain of the psyche. But walking on that edge and pushing that line teaches us much, and increases our capacity to face adversity. (Sorry to steal some of your thunder, Van ). I believe there is a right way to do that. I believe women and smaller people in the dojo are pushed over the edge a little too often. I think a good number of talented and/or large men in the dojo never really experience the tempering process - at their peril on the street.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bill, I agree with you on this and believe that instructors need to try stay sensitive and responsive to this, within the general parameters of that particular dojo/instructor.

Initial and ongoing communications need to occur to ensure to ensure a mutual understanding of the goals, and to prevent someone from being pushed over the "line", too much, too often. But in pushing the envelop, folks will fall over once in awhile, physically and mentally. I actually think this goes with the territory, otherwise we don't know where the "line" is for us individually. Some folks, female or male, don't want to go anywhere near there, and that is fine too.

I think there are two major elements going on in this thread. One is related to sensitivity in working with female students. Another is figuring out and accommodating what works for females (and smaller/weaker males.) I actually think the latter is an easier discussion and something *concrete* can come out of it. The first discussion is worthwhile but tough (ain't all worthwhile discussions *tough*?

). If discussion promotes introspection and sensitivity, then we would have gotten somewhere, even if not immediately measurable.

david