Women as Martial Arts Instructors

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:19 pm

Now I know this could get a little exciting to talk about. People could say something honest and someone else flame them and then I'll have to lock the thread and that would be silly. So just keep in mind that I'm encouraging people to be honest - without being unnecessarily brutal.

<hr>
Often, I've taught the adult classes on Thursday nights at our dojo. We train at a health club. One night I'm sitting outside the training rooms with another male student who's also a black belt. A man walks up to us, bows to my friend and says to him "sensei, may I ask you questions about your school". My friend smiles at the guy and he'd be happy to talk with him, but he should really talk to me since I teach more classes. (The truth of matter is that my friend is actually quite shy and I know the sales spiel better because I answer the dojo phone messages) Anyway -
the guy looks very disappointed, turns to me and says "So do you do full contact sparring or not?"

And I explain that we do free sparring, usually without pads - only with mouthpiece and cup - but we don't do "full contact" because we all have lives and go to work the next day - we usually do medium to heavy contact. We only do near-full contact wearing chest protectors.

I invite to come see sparring class Saturday - he never showed.

The point is not that he didn't come, the point is that he was very respectful when he approached my friend, and then a bit dismisive once he turned and talk to me.

My friend is 6'4 and I'm 5'4. So was there a value judgement? Size and gender? Or was the guy just embarrased he approached the wrong person first?

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited March 18, 2002).]

beckyhaworth · Post by **beckyhaworth** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:59 pm

Hi Dana...

I have seen and experienced the feel of being treated "inferior" because I am a female instead of a Male.

I just look at it that those people who judge me on my sex instead of my talents as a student I would not want to teach anyways.

Becky

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:50 pm

Dana and Becky I am sorry that that happened to you. I had a woman aikido instructor for three years and saw that on occasion. The school was a t.k.d. run by a man and an aikido school run by a woman. It was a noncommercial school so there was no money to be lost or gained and she use to just let it roll off of her shoulders.

She did have a lot to offer though. Because she wasn't fast or strong (comparied to the men that trained there) she put a lot of emphasis on being crafty and strategic. She spent a lot of time looking at the timing for opportunty and was my only and brief introduction to how a woman views an attack as opposed to how men view it.

The big thing she got out of teaching men and training with men is her aggression level increased quite a bit in the three years I studied at that school. The school had about 10 regulars and 9 of them were males with average previous martial arts expierence of about 7 years per student.

Our attitude of respect towards her tended to project on vistors and I think because we looked at her as a vauble source of information vistors for the most part did too.

candan · Post by **candan** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 3:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> People could say something
honest and someone else flame them and then I'll have to lock the thread and that would
be silly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok here is honest, if I were looking for Karate instruction with no previous experience under my belt and entered a dojo with a female instructor I would have likely not joined. Why? I would not want to join in with the "sissies" being taught to fight by a girl... I may think a girl teaching would effect my ego IF she could fight.... I don`t want to learn to fight like a girl.... My friends would pick me apart because my Karate instructor IS a girl...If the female instructor was older than me .."Your MOMMY could teach you!"

Oh the male ego!

I often ask one one of the shodans to teach for me when I help out a newer student because she is my first choice regardless of her gender. Yes, she can fight as well and the class is well aware of her well rounded abilities. However, I am aware that a male walking in will view it as negative in most cases.(It~s their lose I guess) Regardless of what I often hear, people join a MA club to learn to protect themselves or at least explore the possibilities. They may fool themselves into thinking they just want to " get in shape" but if that were really the case then why not the "Y"? Woman are not thought of as fighters in our culture. People still have pre- conceived thoughts of what a Karate instructor SHOULD look or be like. How do females seeing that a dojo is being instructed by a female feel about the situation? Is it prefered?

Flame expected but the question was asked.

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 19, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 4:51 pm

Candan, thank you for your candor.

Actually one of the reasons I ask is that when I am teaching, we often have people watch class. Lately, several women and several men have joined our school after watching me teach.

We ought to do something like Len Testa does and give the students a survey to find out if the gender of the teacher affected their choice.

I have to be honest that when a male student is watching class, I make sure to do a nice, strong round of body conditioning right in front of them with the largest guy in class I can find. I guess women have egos too.

I've not kept track, but it often seems like the men are much more willing to talk with me about training after they've seen me bash arms with the big guys. Whether that's true or just my own perception of feeling "on trial" by being watched by strangers while teaching I don't know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

People still have pre- conceived thoughts of what a Karate instructor SHOULD look or be like.

They sure do. Excellent observation.
I guess this is part of the pressure I feel since I know I don't match what Mother Culture says is a "typical" karate instructor.

My brain is saying that a typical karate instructor is:
Big, strong, ex-cop or ex-military guy who's "seen real fighting action" but wanted something to balance out the violence they've experienced so they found karate as a way of learning the best ways to fight while still being on the path to enlightenment.

Whew - what a story!!!!

Dana

TSDguy · Post by **TSDguy** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:29 pm

What signed me up for my first class was a tiny little 5'1 100lb girl blasted through a pile of concrete at a demo(lition?)nstration. So finding out there were a lot of senior belt women at the school sounded just fine to me. I wanted to break concrete like she did, and she was tiny.

I think a good hip throw would impress a guy enough to sign up. Afterall, if a tiny woman can do it to a big man, a medium sized guy can do it to a big man too.

turbotort2000 · Post by **turbotort2000** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:33 pm

An observation I have is that there is a great deal of segregation in the martial arts based on gender and age. Woman and children have been known to congregate at schools that yall refer to as mcdojos, woman go to tae bo, and woman tend to frequent schools where the regiment is not a physical and sparring is not emphasised.

Understand that an outsider, one who has limited exposure to martial, arts has probably made these observations before and going with the information they have making a quick decision while shopping around for schools.

What that means as that woman martial art instructors when meeting people who are new tho the martial arts are not working from zero in garnering information but are competing against observations that puts them in the negative when sharing information. I wish I knew some answers for you but I can point out something obvious which is that your school doesn't exist in a vaccum irregardless of how different the curriculum is from the school across the street. Your school exist in a martial arts culture that has given limited exposure to non-martial arts who will naturally bring their observations and prejudices in through the door with them.

LeeDarrow · Post by **LeeDarrow** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 7:11 pm

Dana-Sensei,

One of the finest instructors I have ever seen is a woman Akido Sensei. She's only Yondan, but her form and, more importantly, her dedication to real world application makes her far more impressive than many higher-ranked instructors in her, and several other, arts.

Another woman I would travel far to study with is the woman who heads the Japan Naginata school. At 82, she can still beat ANY of her students with the naginata, yet she has a sensitive and caring nature as well.

There are Masters of both genders. I look at what's being taught more than I look at the gender of who is doing the teaching.

If I feel that there is something I can learn, then I will enroll. The gender of the instructor doesn't matter. The quality of the teaching is the important thing.

But I'm a long timer (over 30 years in various arts) and maybe have a different apsect on this issue than someone new might, especially as I now seem to be relagated to the armchair more than the tatami.

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.

candan · Post by **candan** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:46 am

Thank you for your kind reply(I was half scared to log on after class tonight)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Lately, several women and several men have joined our school after
watching me teach.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am willing to bet that many are pleased when people join and your [I think most join because of the instructor and he/she are the deciding factor in the decisoin to join or not] likely one of the main reasons they did. I find it hard when a person seems interested and doesn`t join or quits early in his/her training (how was I presenting myself? I know it is a great style......was I demonstrating its potential enough or properly?) When I feel I played a role in sparking someones interest in the style I study.. it simply feels good. I have considered a survey as Dana indicated in asking why they joined, but asking why they left would have to be included. The why for leaving may force swallowing some lumps.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> it often seems like the men are much more willing to talk with me
about training after they've seen me bash arms with the big guys.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shodan I mentioned earlier almost word for word mentioned same. She said if she had a nose like mine she wouldn`t need to always try to prove herself. (I blocked many a punch with my nose)
I think boys are always looking to see if their leaders can prove themselves. How do girls view their leader?

Leo

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 19, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by candan (edited March 20, 2002).]

candan · Post by **candan** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 8:39 am

[QUOTE][I think most join
because of the instructor and he/she are the deciding factor in the decisoin to join or
not]

Please note this edit I made to previous post as "your" was not intended to refer to just Dana but every instructor.
How we present ourselves as instructors is likely the main reason why students stay or leave.

Post by **gmattson** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:44 pm

Dana:

I'm wondering how everyone feels about this subject. If you doen't mind, lets create a survey to determine the general reader's point of view on the subject. Might be interesting.

If interested, please post the questions you would like presented on the "Survey" forum and I will create and post it.

You can ask questions that are answered with True or False, graded by a scale, multiple choice w/only one answer and multiple choice with one or more answers. We can also allow space for a written answer.

Best,
George

tunetigress · Post by **tunetigress** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 9:45 pm

I would like to point out that not only female instructors, but also female practitioners in training, could have their efforts and accomplishments minimized simply because they are female. I have had extensive personal experience in this regard, and find myself frequently confronted by expressions of disbelief that I not only train in Karate, but also was 'able' to win medals at tournaments! Now I do admit that I am a 45 year old mother of two kids under 10, and am neither very thin, or very attractive. Ha ha , looks can be deceiving! Respectfully, _(_)_ Tune

Allen M. · Post by **Allen M.** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 12:32 am

I've had one good female instructor along my road and she was real good. She had no chip on her shoulder and nothing to prove, she was just plain good.

I was going to sign up at another place run by a woman. The students didn't impress me, but what turned me off is that during our (Iwas interviewing her as much as she was interviewing me) interview she started elaborating at how much weight lifting was a pure waste of time. Putting everything together, I figured she'd be a waste of time and I joined a place a few miles down the road.

A number of women get to teach kids classes in a number of the places I've attended. I'm not sure how they win that position, but it's good practice for teaching adults, because they are often the same only older with a longer attention span [adults and kids, that is].

Frankly, I don't care about the gender of the instructor. I just don't like primadonnas, pompous arrogants, fakes, similar personality imbalances, and the male instructor population has more than its share of those. I think successful female instructors are more careful to "get it right" as a rule because they are entering a man's world with their craft, a man's world that holds little or no mercy for women instructors in a number of places in this country.

------------------
Allen Moulton from Uechi-ryu Etcetera

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited March 20, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 3:08 am

Sure, I'll take a stab at a survey. Give me a couple days - work is intense for the next week or so. But I'll send you something to look over.

Dana

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Mar 21, 2002 11:40 pm

Of course, I'm also open to ideas of how to frame the questions to go on the survey. (being a newbie survey writer)

There must be universal qualities of any good teacher. Here's an interesting article about the difference between teaching adults and teaching children.
http://www.vaw.umn.edu/FinalDocuments/Investigate/SupplementalMaterials/AdultLearning/AdultLearningM OD.doc

This is a 78 kb download of a word document.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>How Adults Learn

There is a great difference between how children learn and how adults learn. Adults who have been at a training session in which they felt like they were treated like children understand this concept. Children attend school in order to obtain knowledge and skills they will use throughout their lifetime. In most cases, education is compulsory and the children are led through the
learning process. Pedagogy is the term that often refers to the process of teaching children. The term is from the Greek and literally translates as "child leading."

Adults learn in a much different manner. When adults attend a training session, they typically do so in search of knowledge and skills they can utilize in their current job. Andragogy is the term that refers to the art of helping adults learn. It is another Greek term, however it translates as "man leading". The theory of andragogy began to be examined in our country in the early 1970Õs and has been expanded upon greatly in the past three decades.

Central to the theory of andragogy are several main assumptions that differentiate it from pedagogy, and set the stage for the development of effective training for adults.

1. Adults need to know why they need to learn something. <snip>

2. Adults learn best if allowed to direct the learning themselves. <snip>

3. Adults have a myriad of prior experiences that affect their learning. <snip>

4. Adults must be ready to learn.

Adults must be ready to learn in order to do so. Their readiness is often determined by the whether they see value in the learning as it relates to their lives and jobs. <snip>

5. The adult orientation to learning is grounded in life.

For adults, learning must be oriented toward the here and now and should be task oriented or problem oriented, rather than generalized as it often is with children.

6. Adults often are motivated to learn by internal factors.

For many children, identifying the motive for learning is easy Ð parental pressure, grades, etc. Identifying the motivation for adult learners is less obvious and more difficult. Although external motivators do exist, the most powerful motivation appears to come from within the adult learner instead of from the outside. <snip>

Although the above assumptions about adult learners are very important, they are not all encompassing. As Knowles admits, "there are many individual differences among learners that
interact with the core adult learning principles to shape adultsÕ learning behaviors." Therefore it is necessary to design training that takes into account individual learning differences in style and ability. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think martial arts instructors can begin to benefit from advances that are coming out of the education disciplines. By learning more about the different intelligences, how adults learn, and what makes an effective teaching environment we can help people to train better.