Uechi-ryu is not a system for women's self defense.

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:28 am

Uechi-ryu is not a system for women's self defense. Uechi-ryu is a system for men fighting men.

Van's got lots of folks talking about Tony Blauer's SPEAR system. And so Gary Koury or Van quoted Tony Blauer as saying that we should train for what will probably happen.

If that's the case then Uechi is pretty much a waste of time for me from a self-defense point of view.

For me to train for what will probably happen to me I need to spend a good deal of time training on a couch, in a bed, or in my own house since that's where I'm most likely to be attacked. And I should spend that time preparing to fight like hell against people I know, love, and have prior relationships with since they are the ones most likely to hurt me.

And that is the small amount of time I should dedicate to physical training since the most likely source of abuse for me as a woman will be verbal or emotional abuse.

Also I'm likely to be attacked with a knife if I am attacked by a stranger and Raffi has made it pretty clear that the standard crane posture of Uechi is a big no-no for a knife encounter.

And - having done adrenal stress training and knowing that sparring class will never be that...what's left?

Can I honestly say to a woman who walks into the karate school next week that we train a system of self-defense?

Perhaps I should just tell her we train a system of movements that were once good for fighting between men but are now a great way to make friends and get in shape. (Hmmm - that kinda sounds like tai chi for health doesn't it?)

Anybody disagree?
Dana

[This message has been edited by Dana Sheets (edited August 29, 2002).]

Raffi Derderian · Post by **Raffi Derderian** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:46 am

Dana,
Don't think because a style has limitations it is not a good one for women. Uechi has flaws. ALL STYLE HAVE FLAWS AS WELL!! I can see gaps in every style I have been exposed to. (so if the ultimate, perfect style really is out there, I haven't been exposed to it yet)
Yup, don't like the Uechi way of holding your hands when a weapon comes out. Jeet Kune Do, and apparently, Blauer say you will fight for real as you train. Correct. So take your art and train it as you would use it. Add weapons, grappling and a realistic training method that you believe in.
Let me tell you what Uechi IS good for, regardless if you are male or female. One, it conditions your body. Most styles don't do this. It trains you to grab. It trains you to kick the legs. Not all martial arts do this. Many arts emphasize fast "flicky" type kicking. Ineffective. Uechi emphasizes power movement.
You can add so much to your Uechi-ryu and make it complete. It really is a fantastic system to have as your base. Take it from an obsessive cross trainer.
Raf

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www.derderian-academy.com

Robb in Sacramento · Post by **Robb in Sacramento** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:07 am

Ms. Sheets:

I'm not sure that Mr. Blauer would find any system of traditional karate to be effective in a real fight. I don't think there is a gender distinction in that belief. That said, and at the risk of unleashing a torrent of comment about how karate is just not real and won't prepare one for a real fight, I disagree. Do I think Uechi is a good self defense system? Yes. Good for women? Yes. Good for kids? Well, err, a topic for Bill's forum.

Do I think men can teach women how to find the effective techniques for women in Uechi? Ah, probably not. This art we practice provides a rich cornucopia of technique from a rather sparse looking basket of kata. It is a style based on very fundamental and very effective movements. It is a style that stresses control of breathing, gaze, balance, stance and posture. All the elements that are key to success in overcoming an opponent. It is a style that teaches self control, and without control of oneself, ones efforts in defense will be chaotic and ones chances for success random. But it is also a style that relies on self discovery and self motivation for finding what is effective for each individual. The style allows itself to be tailored to the user.

You are absolutely right about where and by whom you are most likely to be attacked. Frankly, after having watched you train, and after having seen your strength, I would pity the fool that attacked you. While I sense you brought a strong character to this art, I also think Uechi has made you stronger. You seem to have tailored the fundamentals of Uechi to meet your needs, and through that process you display a physical, mental and spirtual strength that give you confidence to perform. Maybe that's what you should tell a prospective student. There are no guarantees, but this will help make you stronger. Or, perhaps you should just let her watch you train.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 11:21 am

Uechi is just as good as any style to develop a foundation for fighting, male or female. The problem (as always) is that application is NOT form and form is NOT application. If you are practicing an application, forget all those stances and finger tip strikes and crap and just do what works. Let your body go where it needs to do get the job done (butt tucked in, back straight, *blah*!)! You're gonna be surprised how well your kata training has prepared you for this type of thing (on a basic level).

david · Post by **david** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 2:35 pm

The endless doubts are the flip side of the unjustified confidence/arrogance in martial arts.

Uechi is as good as any in developing a base to work from. It can also be a "trap" as any other system. The issue is of developing the mindset (perhaps not even possible for some) and exploring what works for you by testing outside of the box. The good thing about IUKF right now is that all of us are encouraged to explore outside of the box. That's as much as you can ask for.

To some degree, the confidence in winning an encounter is never ever really instilled(unless you are predator selecting your timing and attack). What can be instilled is the belief/conviction that you will fight to the end. At least, that's what I have come to believe.

Blauer had made a study and a program around street violence. I can't say I am intimate with his program. I don't know where my reactions fit in his system. To a certain degree, I don't even care. I know my training has served me up to now. Will it the next time around? Maybe. It I train in Blauer's system, will it help me? Maybe.

Fact that there are many reasons to train. Self-defense is certainly one of mine but it is not the be all, end all. When it was at time long ago, the cycle of self-doubt was at it's worse. Not a good place. Just as being overly confident is not a good place.

Things need to be put in proper place and perspective, whatever the heck may be for the individual.

david

Stryke · Post by **Stryke** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:42 pm

Must agree all styles have flaws , if you cant tell me the flaws in your style , in my opinion you dont know it well enough .

find what you need and get it from were you can , style = foundation , not mastery

once you have a foundation build what you need .

but without a strong foundation the prettiest house will topple .

hate it if it sounded a little to much like the ole mystical mumbo , but is the only way i could think to explain it .

Stryke

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 10:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

all styles have flaws

Hmmm... Is the flaw in the style, or the narrow mind of the simpleton practicing and interpreting it? The more I learn and the wiser I become, the more my opinion shifts.

- Bill

Robb in Sacramento · Post by **Robb in Sacramento** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 1:07 am

Ms. Sheets:

OOPS!! Boy am I sorry. My brain was on pause. I did read, but did not pay attention to your initial premise. Uechi is a system for men. Are you sure?

Now, if you tell me it's a system for right handed people, I will agree.

If you tell me it's not the greatest for folks over six feet, I'm with you.

But, designed for men? Even designed by men? I'm not so sure.

I have always considered Uechi to be very similar to Wing Chun, a style that history (or herstory) tells us was founded by a woman. The woman who founded the style seemed to feel that practicing a limited number of close in techniques worked best for women. Umm. A limited number of close in techniques. Well, I wasn't there when this style was put together, so I don't know for sure who the heck invented it. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was a woman.

Now if I could just figure out how to teach elbow distancing in Sanchin to women, I might be totally convinced a woman put this together, because unlike many other styles, the first move in our kata is not always to protect the groin.

Anyway, now that you've heard from all the guys on this, I hope the ladies comment.

Peace
Robb in Sacramento

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:07 am

What has always impressed me about Tony Blauer’s method is the fact that his system and theories are based on the study of the physical and emotional components of thousands of fights, whether they are sporting or street confrontations.

His concepts are based on valid/recognized human response factors, something that is hard to argue against.

Tony does not knock any style, he simply points out that styles are like toolboxes. Like in any toolbox, there will be tools, which will see the most use in application, as well as many that will rarely be used. His point is having the tools, recognizing which tools are the most useful, and making sure that the tools owner becomes more and more proficient with them.

It is the making sure of being able to access those tools in the emotional and physical chaos of combat that carries the most importance.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

the unjustified confidence/arrogance in martial arts.

When you think about it, this is a true statement. The truth is that some practitioners and some high ranking masters in any system, could be very good at surviving a nasty confrontation, but, conversely, many would not in spite of the hot air they blow. That is the “cocoon factor” I have discussed many times; all theory. Again, there are exceptions, but those exceptional individuals have more under their “black belts” than the average master or dojo rat.

The mental side of combat, for example, is left to chance and hidden in traditional lore, never really explored in detail as Tony Blauer does. The arrogance here is that people who embrace a style under the master of their choice, who himself is an arrogant, not street proven practitioner; really believe that nothing can touch them on the street.

Their arrogance prevents them from embracing and understanding modern theories of intuition, attacker profiles, and emotional management along with the tactical component that is forever changing. Think about it.

A real fight is no dojo/tournament fight, and you need specialized knowledge and practice in emotional management along with the tactical component in order to create the right type of action instead of descending into emotional inertia. Many of us don’t believe we could ever be snared by this emotional quagmire, that is, not until it happens and we wonder what the hell happened.

Robb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote

It is a style that stresses control of breathing, gaze, balance, stance and posture. All the elements that are key to success in overcoming an opponent. It is a style that teaches self control, and without control of oneself, ones efforts in defense will be chaotic and ones chances for success random. But it is also a style that relies on self-discovery and self-motivation for finding what is effective for each individual. The style allows itself to be tailored to the user.

Really all there in a nutshell. Uechi Ryu, or any other traditional system, should be none other than the ship you embark to explore the world in accordance with your fantasy model, then experience an awakening.

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited August 29, 2002).]

Dana Sheets · Post by **Dana Sheets** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:12 am

Hey Bill - are you calling me a dummy?

I know what you're saying, but I don't want this thread to go off the mark too far at this point. I'm not focused on the question of whether or not Uechi-ryu has flaws.

I am focused on the idea that Uechi ryu, especially as it was taught for a long time -was not the best style for a woman's self-defense at a technical level.

Sure - it builds spirit, physical strength, it can build self-confidence if taught properly, and with a good teacher you'll learn balance.

But does that make it a good system for women? Robb even points out that larger breasted women have difficulty with the basic fighting posture. And it takes years for women to build up enough strength to be able to throw a shoken into anything.

Tony-San · Post by **Tony-San** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 11:12 am

Dana, what other fighting posture is there? You gotta get your hands up!

Van Canna · Post by **Van Canna** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:03 pm

Dana,

Good for you! Keep shaking "them trees" _

You must have borrowed my "ice bucket"

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Van Canna

Raffi Derderian · Post by **Raffi Derderian** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:18 pm

Dana,
IMHO, if a style doesn't work for everyone dispite their gender, it is flawed. I think the whole premise of martial arts is that a weaker person can defeat a larger person with the proper training. However, holding that aside and at the risk of drawing fire from everyone, I will say it might not be the best style for a woman. If my sisters were going to do martial arts, I'd probably recommend the JKD or Kempo programs we teach. (well of course they are going to train with me) Not that I feel they are superior to Uechi-ryu. It is the person, not the art that is superior. But JKD and our Kempo do get into the area of self defens much quicker. Where in a typical Uechi class (I know not eveyone teaches Uechi this way) you work on Sanchin and conditioning and Hojundo (sp). The first thing you learn in JKD for example is footwork and jab, cross, hook on a focus mitt. We train focus mitts and thai pads every single class. About 30 minutes. That same first class you are learning block and counters that involve eye strikes and throat shots.
Ten years down the road, the art shouldn't matter. At the beginning, it is more significant.
Is this more of the feedback you were looking for?
Raf

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www.derderian-academy.com

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

Robb even points out that larger breasted women have difficulty with the basic fighting posture.

My very first female shodan was 5' 5", and a 38 DD. If Kathleen can do it, then it works for women of just about any breast size.

We discovered that the arm positioning for sanchin was actually ideal. By getting the arms up, you protect the vulnerable breasts.

I have many fun sparring games we play in our dojo. One of them is a blind person "search and destroy" exercise. Everyone closes their eyes, seeks out others, and does a palm strike to the body when contact is made. I don't tell them how they should stand or hold their bodies. One of the most amazing things to see (as the instructor watching blind people search for their neighbors) is how people quickly go right to a classic palm forward sanchin posture. Women quickly learn that if they don't get arms in front of chest in the classical fashion, then a guy gets a free and innocent handful.

I've never found women who would refuse the opportunity to play - as long as we don't mix short and tall people together.

I think the biggest problem people have in evaluating styles is that the yardstick used is artificial. No Whatsamata Ryu winners in the UFC? Well... how often on the street does someone have the opportunity to engage in a protracted grappling battle on the ground? There's a big difference between sport and reality. There's a big difference between date rape and stranger rape. There's a big difference between a fight against one and a fight against many. There's a big difference between fighting in a gi and fighting with a skirt and high heels. There's a big difference between a battle against empty hands and one against a weapon (or more). The list goes on.

If you find a good foundation from which you can connect to many different modes of fighting and self defense, I'd say you have a pretty darned good start.

In my mind, the limitations are usually with the imagination of the practitioner.

As for you, Dana, I take you to be a person that asks excellent rhetorical questions. But being the proud papa of many female shodans - perhaps a greater percentage of total shodans than most Uechi instructors - I feel I have seen things in the style that many of the bash-em and smash-em crowd completely miss. The style can be interpreted many different ways. When there are compatibility problems, I find the problem usually lies in the interpretation and not the fundamentals. David Moy should never fight like Bobby Campbell, and vice versa. But someone like Bobby knew that, and brought the very best out of David.

Oh and by the way, Jim Thompson showed you a VERY effective way for a woman to use a shoken, right?

I could show you more.

- Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited August 30, 2002).]

Bill Glasheen · Post by **Bill Glasheen** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:06 pm

I had to think a bit about some of the responses that came about... Perhaps some clarification is in order for the general audience.

To start with, Dana and I go WAY back. She's been a tremendous friend to me on many levels. Anyone that has Dana as a friend knows she is a keeper. I go out of my way at times to touch base with her and make sure she knows "we are cool." So when you see Dana and I scrapping on line, it's the same kind of scrapping you'd expect to see at perhaps The Jefferson Literary and Debating Society. It's that passionate drive for the truth - wherever it may lie - that propels us both.

Now, on to the potential "phantom insult" thing. Did I mean insult? Absolutely. But...to whom??? Those that know me can back me up on this.

Several years back, we had just finished a Mid-Atlantic regional. We were celebrating afterwords at some nameless restaurant. Vicki was one of my kyu students at the time, and sitting to the right of me. I believe she was asking this fellow (who will remain nameless) about some aspect of Uechi ryu. He volunteered something like 'Uechi ryu wasn't meant for a woman; they don't have the ability to take a hit.' To which papa bear (me) replied "That's assuming your definition of Uechi means you are stupid enough to stand still and take abuse." You could have heard a pin drop... In real life, I rarely show my fangs. But don't mess with my family - by blood or by sweat - unless you are performing a service to society.

I've had more than one student go to the New England promotional (come from outside the "homeland" of American Uechi Ryu) and get voted "best candidate" at a dan test. In every case but one, it was a woman. Now why is that? Why are these Uechi women turning heads? Food for thought.

Forget Mid Atlantic Uechi women superstars. Just open your eyes and look at the women champions you have around you. They are there, if you take a look.

In my view, it doesn't matter the style. I find more and more cases of some close-minded person claiming to possess "the true way" in a martial style. If you're not doing it that way, well then you just aren't doing it right. Of course 100 times out of 100, these "true way" meatheads are...male. And as a male, I don't buy any of it.

It's a martial ART.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote

If you see the Buddah in the road, kill him.

Off of soap box...

- Bill