Conditioning Exercises

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Ted Dinwiddie
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Basically the piezoelectric properties of bone allow it to regulate the osteoclasts and osteoblasts so that minerals can properly be deposited along the lines of stress in the bone. By the way, this is a long way of saying that weight-bearing exercises are good for your bones.
Is this part of the reason certain conditioning exercises, such as those done in Uechi, strengthen the bones?

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ted

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[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited January 16, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Ted

I like the way you think.

Most of us believe kotekitae is good for the bones. But I don't know if anyone has actually done an experiment that prooves kotekitae causes forearm bones to become stronger. We do know that "weight bearing" exercises make bones stronger. Is this also true for conditioning exercises like we see in Uechi ryu? Anecdotally we all seem to link Uechi and other martial arts practice with strong bones in the contact regions. The reasons may be myriad.

Let's put it this way - this is a good first principles explanation for how these kinds of conditioning exercises may make the bones stronger.

- Bill
cashodan
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by cashodan »

The effect iron body conditioning has on our bones has, so far, been relatively difficult to explain. Im no doctor but Ive met Uechi practitioners who are and have read article written doctors who study various arts also incorporate body conditioning and so far none of them have been able to explain why conditioning works, in medical terms anyway.So if anybody has seen anything or has a link somewhere that helps to explain it a lil better I would to have something a lil more solid the faith to convince people that we dont abuse each other . Image
Adam
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Adam »

Just thought I'd peep in. I seem to remember a study on the elderly pointing to those that became physically active (in a variety of ways) developing stronger bones. If we transfer that logic to a young man like myself, 22, then I'm building stronger bones just by working you.
Oh, and about the medical reasons for conditioning, I couldn't find anything a couple of years back when I was searching. One theory I found though was that the individual cells form stronger cell walls to compensate for the extra stresses.

Adam
Ted Dinwiddie
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Bill,

Personally, I believe these exercises work. My understanding is that they must be done such that bruising and broken skin do not occur, but with enough force to cause a vibration in the bone(s). Over time and with moderate frequency of training this increases the density of the bone. The above excerpt from your post on another thread is the first modern scientific evidence, however inferential, I have ever seen.

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T Rose
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by T Rose »

I actually took part in a bone density study. One of my students (bone dr.) got me into the study because he was curious about conditioning. They MRI'ed everyone and tried to come up with some conclusions.. I kinda get why we can condition the way we do but I really can't understand why we don't bruise from the hits?????

later
dmsdc
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Post by dmsdc »

Wild Amateur Speculation:

The cell walls of the skin and capallaries (sp?) thicken to adapt to the shocking environment

The muscle fibers go over the veins -- or conversly, the veins run down under into the muscle to hide from the shocks. Have you ever noticed that on the forearms of most uechi-cha (even the very lean ones) the veins don't stand out? On "normal" people in the summer (like at GEM's camp) the veins will stand out on the skin of the arms because they're trying to be cooler. But not on uechi-ka.

The same sort of thing happens to guys who carry the tuba in marching band. They heft that thing up on their shoulder and for the first 3 weeks or their right trap turns red and gets very, very sore. After that, the skin adapts to the extra rubbing, and the muscle builds up to hold the extra weight.

So probably that's why we do rubbing AND pounding. The rubbing for the skin and the pounding for everything under the skin.

again, just wild speculations.
Dana
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Guest »

Ever try to explain this practice to your personnel doctor?

I've given up trying to understand the why. I don't know how my computer works, I don't know how my transmission in my truck works either. But I know they do.

Maybe those old bumper stickers were right.

IF IT FEELS GOOD
DO IT !

DO IT UNTIL YOUR SATISFIED!

Laird
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Glenn
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Glenn »

First Adam stated:
"One theory I found though was that the individual cells form stronger cell walls to compensate for the extra stresses."

Then dmsdc stated:
"The cell walls of the skin and capallaries (sp?) thicken to adapt to the shocking environment"

Wow, I didn't realize Uechi Ryu was so popular with plants...although this could explain the oak and willow tree analogies I've heard used with Sanchin. Image

True there are some karate-ka who might best be classified as plant, algae, fungus, or bacteria, but those of us who are animals do not have cell walls. What we do have are cell membranes that are composed of a simple phospholipid bilayer, whose rigidity and stability is aided by cholesterol and protein molecules embedded in the membrane. If we're talking about strengthening cell membranes, than I believe we have to be talking about increasing the number of cholesterol and protein molecules in the membrane. But then again I'm not a cell physiologist nor do I play one on TV. Dr. Bill, or anyone, care to fill in the gaps about cell membranes and how they might be strengthened? For example, what happens with cell membranes involved with bone or cartiledge tissue, or callouses? My current instructor likes to explain body conditioning as analogous to callous development, but how similar are the processes?

Regarding what dmsdc said about the veins not standing out in the arms of Uechi-ka: If that is a general rule, there are exceptions. My instructor has bulging veins that stand out very well, he always gets lots of compliments whenever he donates blood. I would assume that individual anatomical factors would dictate how well the muscle tissue could cover the arteries and veins.

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Bill Glasheen
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Sorry for the delay. I was heavily involved in doing histograms, probability density functions, and posting elsewhere about breathing. Any one of those activities will severely tax your time... Image

Thanks for the question, Tracy. It's a good one, and I've been seeking an answer to it for decades. My personal belief is that we are looking at a multitude of reasons for the beneficial response to targeted conditioning.

1) The "hidden vein" theory is an interesting suggestion. I happen to be one of those people who - in spite of 3 decades of kotekitae - still have veins that make a phlebotomist very happy. Generally hidden veins are a sign of high body fat. But there may be something to the theory, albeit on a small vessel and not large vessel level. It probably is due to an increase in connective tissue as a result of the continuous mechanical stimulation. Yes...this is similar to callous development, only on a very thin and broad level. So individual cell membranes may not be any stronger. Rather the capillaries and venules in the forearm are protected by layers of connective tissue that naturally develop as a response to the mechanical stress.

2) Whether you realize it or not, there is most definitely a short term effect. For instance, experience will show that one decreases the risk for bruising in kumite by first starting with ("warming up" with) kotekitae. How can that be? Easy... The response to many physiologic states - such as exercise and stress - is to decrease the clotting time. In other words, you plug the "holes" you make from microtrauma so quickly that you never see a bruise. You may still feel just a touch sore the next day, but you see no bruises. You are no worse than you would feel from a weight training routine (which is also known to cause microtrauma).

3) This one may make the chi-sters happy if they take what I say, squint their eyes, and translate to their own domains. Image I truly believe that part of the benefit of kotekitae, ashikitae, and even stomach conditioning is to learn how to "reflect" the energy. If an attacker is successful, then his strike will result in an inelastic collision. This means that the recipient of a strike absorbs energy from the strike, and this energy is released by breaking bonds in tissue. However, well conditioned (coordinated) athletes learn to make these collisions more and more elastic. It's a matter of knowing when and how to contract the right muscles at the right time. The effect of hitting someone who has this down is a lot like trying to damage a properly inflated basketball by hitting it. I know for a fact that I "hurt" many a beginner that hits me hard in kotekitae, thinking that the energy will go into me. I find it comical when I get that look from someone who has hit me hard in the stomach or on the forearm and they suddenly realize that they were the one that just got hurt. Anyone who is experienced at this exercise knows how to do this. Thus when you get good at it, you don't really absorb very much energy at all. Increased skill at this has something to do with voluntary actions, and also something to do with higly-trained, involuntary reflexes (the stretch reflex, where responses are proportional to dL/dt of the muscle).

Anyhow, that's my stab at it.

- Bill
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Guest »

Knowing nothing, he still put his two cents in. Image(it's never stoped him in the past. Image

Bill I like your take on conective tissue. I don't know medicine but I do know meat.

The average uechika has a rather dense tight forearm. Not tight like a weightlifter who is pumped up muscles engorged with blood. But tight like indian rubber.

When you refer to conective tissue,I think elastine,collegene. I know that when I cook a joint of meat, If I want it tender I must break down the conective tissue buy cooking it in an acidic mix (wine,tomatoes,oranges etc.)

I also know that is I raise my own meat the foods that I feed the livestock and the lifestyle it lives will affect the composition of the meat.(How tough it is how much conective tissue)

I begin to suspect that we may be able to enhance/hinder kotekitae buy the very diets we embrace.

Just food for thought,pun not intended.

Laird

I miss the spell check already Image
raulf7
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by raulf7 »

For muscle development and strength over many years of trial and error to learn what is best for my particular body I have studied countless weight training programmes of different sports. From marathon programmes to shot put programmes, as well as those allegedly custom made for Karate.

This is what I have found best for me (and I stress for me):

A thorough warm up by running a few miles followed by stretching.

Bench Press 3 sets 12 reps 10 reps 8 reps (increasing the weight each rep)

Shoulder Press 3 sets 12 reps 10 reps 8 reps (increasing the weight each rep)

Upright Rowing 3 sets 12 reps 10 reps 8 reps (increasing the weight each rep)

Shoulder raises 3 sets 12 reps 10 reps 8 reps (increasing the weight each rep)

Then followed by using a dumbell, doing a large volume of jabs and back fist strikes with a light weight.

Lunges 3 sets 15 reps each leg

Step ups on a bench 25 each leg

Squat Jumps 3 sets of 15 (holding dumbells)

Calf muscle steps ups 3 sets 12 reps 10 reps 8 reps (increasing the weight each rep)

Sit ups as fast as I can for 3 minutes with weight held behind my head.

I then finish off with a machine I made that allows me to strap parts of my body to a weight connected to a rope running over pullies. This allows me to perform exact Karate movement simulation with a weight attached. I use lights weights with high repetition. This exercises machine allows me to perform all kicks, punches, blocks and even body movement. I get the wonderful benefit of my exact Karate movement being put under load so the exact muscles used get worked. There are very few techniques I cannot do with this machine.

Also by attaching the belt around my waste I can do lunge punches and side stepping manouvers under load.

It cost me $120 US to make. I would not be without it now.
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Bill Glasheen
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Laird

Gotta love that assessment above. Image

Actually a good researcher starts with a good knowledge base and then is good at conjecturing patterns from that based on observations. A researcher won't know what ideas to test unless he can make educated guesses based on first principles. That's all I gave above - educated guesses. Unfortunately NIH won't pay me to test my hypotheses. Imagine presenting this to a human investigative review board. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
We propose randomly assigning subjects to two groups. One group we're going to leave alone; the other we're going to bash their arms with rubber hoses. After 8 weeks of this, we will sacrifice the human subjects and prepare thin tissue slices of their forearms...
It'd be even worse if we did it on animals. The folks from PETA would have a new poster boy. Image

Sigh...

- Bill
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Conditioning Exercises

Post by Guest »

Bill

Maybe we could use the people from PETA Image

Laird
Ted Dinwiddie
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Post by Ted Dinwiddie »

Vegetarian is an ancient word for "Bad Hunter"...

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