I've always been a bit of a contrary. I've always had that libertarian streak. I've always defended folks whose values are trampled on by the tyranny of the masses.
But now and then...
Brawl breaks out at press conference
When does a sport end and a crime begin?
How much longer should Mike Tyson stay a free man?
Who gives a &*%$ about this thug any more?
- Bill
Michael, Michael, Michael....
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael, Michael, Michael....
Tyson shares a similar background to many fighters/champions. Some rise above, the fight being the forge. In the crucible of the ring, some distilled into purer forms their malevolence.
Tyson will come to an unhappy end. The question is how many others will be taken with him.
david
Tyson will come to an unhappy end. The question is how many others will be taken with him.
david
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Stryke
Michael, Michael, Michael....
He`s a has been and an embarrasment to boxing I hope he does`nt last .
what happened to boxing these days its a circus ....
what happened to boxing these days its a circus ....
Michael, Michael, Michael....
The "circus" of modern day boxing can be attributed to Muhammed Ali. I really like Ali for the path he has walked to this point in his life. Nevertheless, he was a brash young man with charisma. He understood how he could parlay that into marketing and bring interest to what was a dying sport. Looking at old tapes of his antics, you can almost always detect a "playfulness" to his goading of opponents, though his opponents at the time could not. With Tyson, the goading is very much a display of his misanthropic nature.
I think we make too much of "sports heroes." Many are simply undeserving of the that characterization. I think Charles Barkley was the most honest in disavowing such status. But Barkley was villified for his honesty, I suspect because the "powers that be" knew it would hurt the marketing. Who is going to wear the Nike shoes endorsed by Barkley if he ain't no hero?
Coming back to boxing, I have to admit to an interest in John "the Quietman" Ruiz, the current WBA heavyweight champ. Skills wise, he certainly will not rank with the best in boxing history but he is among the best in this current day. But that's not really my interest. Rather I look to see what he does and will do as the "pride of Chelsea" -- the hero of a poor, largely Hispanic community in a town that lives in shadow of the rusting Mystic/Tobin bridge leading to neighboring Boston. Back in my college days, I dated a woman whose family lived in Chelsea. I had thought I lived in a "tough" neighborhood... Chelsea scared the crap outta me. Chelsea hasn't change much since then. It is so run down and poor that it has escaped the gentrification and development that has engulfed much of greater Boston. It's school system was so bad that it gave up the administration of it to Boston University/John Silber as an educational experiment...
John Ruiz -- the pride of Chelsea -- is one of a very few seemingly bright spots in that town. What will he do? What can he do? What's his obligation, if any? Perhaps, he doesn't have to do anything more than this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>``I guess it's that I'm a quiet guy and so was he (Ruiz's estranged father),'' said Ruiz. ``Even though we met, we never really got the chance to know each other the way a father and son should.''
Ruiz' father may have been a product of the machismo tradition, where open displays of affection were discouraged, but John rarely misses an opportunity to hug his children and remind them that he loves them.
``I'll definitely give them a hug and a kiss,'' he unabashedly admitted. ``It made me feel that I have to a positive influence in my kids' lives. I decided a long time ago that I was always going to be there for my kids, to show them support.''
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
(Exerpt from a Boston Herald interview)
Though lacking in fanfare, I think our most profound, enduring and concrete legacy is how we raise our children. I hope Ruiz makes the difference in a "quiet" way, long after the spotlight has faded.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 23, 2002).]
I think we make too much of "sports heroes." Many are simply undeserving of the that characterization. I think Charles Barkley was the most honest in disavowing such status. But Barkley was villified for his honesty, I suspect because the "powers that be" knew it would hurt the marketing. Who is going to wear the Nike shoes endorsed by Barkley if he ain't no hero?
Coming back to boxing, I have to admit to an interest in John "the Quietman" Ruiz, the current WBA heavyweight champ. Skills wise, he certainly will not rank with the best in boxing history but he is among the best in this current day. But that's not really my interest. Rather I look to see what he does and will do as the "pride of Chelsea" -- the hero of a poor, largely Hispanic community in a town that lives in shadow of the rusting Mystic/Tobin bridge leading to neighboring Boston. Back in my college days, I dated a woman whose family lived in Chelsea. I had thought I lived in a "tough" neighborhood... Chelsea scared the crap outta me. Chelsea hasn't change much since then. It is so run down and poor that it has escaped the gentrification and development that has engulfed much of greater Boston. It's school system was so bad that it gave up the administration of it to Boston University/John Silber as an educational experiment...
John Ruiz -- the pride of Chelsea -- is one of a very few seemingly bright spots in that town. What will he do? What can he do? What's his obligation, if any? Perhaps, he doesn't have to do anything more than this:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>``I guess it's that I'm a quiet guy and so was he (Ruiz's estranged father),'' said Ruiz. ``Even though we met, we never really got the chance to know each other the way a father and son should.''
Ruiz' father may have been a product of the machismo tradition, where open displays of affection were discouraged, but John rarely misses an opportunity to hug his children and remind them that he loves them.
``I'll definitely give them a hug and a kiss,'' he unabashedly admitted. ``It made me feel that I have to a positive influence in my kids' lives. I decided a long time ago that I was always going to be there for my kids, to show them support.''
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
(Exerpt from a Boston Herald interview)
Though lacking in fanfare, I think our most profound, enduring and concrete legacy is how we raise our children. I hope Ruiz makes the difference in a "quiet" way, long after the spotlight has faded.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited January 23, 2002).]
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael, Michael, Michael....
Hi, david. I understand the content of your ideas. However I think they deserve further consideration. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But remember that Ali protested against the Vietnam War on a platform of being a pacifist. Outside the ring, he was a gentle man that became an ordained Muslim minister. Through all his wives and girlfriends, he wasn't once accused of having been inappropriate in any way (other than the usual human vices that end relationships and break hearts). Mohammed’s antics were entertainment - period.
And then you have the WWF. Now we are getting into a gray zone. These individuals actually are nothing about fighting at all. The matches are staged, and the violence outside the ring is staged. But it's the "acting" of explicit violence outside the rules of society in the name of entertainment that gets into very sticky territory. Granted from an audience point of view, we are dealing with a group on the low end of the I.Q. and E.Q. spectrum. But it is still acting - period.
And then there is Michael. He raped a naive young girl. He (allegedly) beat one of his women. He bit an ear off an opponent in the ring. And now he assaults his opponents before the beginnings of the sanctioned matches. Not funny. Not entertaining.
Mike Tyson never was and never will be Muhammad Ali.
- Bill
Muhammad Ali did indeed appreciate the entertainment element of boxing, and he learned how to increase his economic return by interjecting his charisma and talent into a sideshow surrounding the main event. This is fine. I am one of many fans that have a deep love for the man, his accomplishments, and his personality. What he did was a personal, colorful, and charismatic version of what many sports networks do surrounding any major athletic event. The hype reaches a peak in events like the Super Bowl, where even the sponsors pay millions per minute to entertain us with new releases of ad campaigns.The "circus" of modern day boxing can be attributed to Muhammad Ali. I really like Ali for the path he has walked to this point in his life. Nevertheless, he was a brash young man with charisma. He understood how he could parlay that into marketing and bring interest to what was a dying sport. Looking at old tapes of his antics, you can almost always detect a "playfulness" to his goading of opponents, though his opponents at the time could not. With Tyson, the goading is very much a display of his misanthropic nature.
But remember that Ali protested against the Vietnam War on a platform of being a pacifist. Outside the ring, he was a gentle man that became an ordained Muslim minister. Through all his wives and girlfriends, he wasn't once accused of having been inappropriate in any way (other than the usual human vices that end relationships and break hearts). Mohammed’s antics were entertainment - period.
And then you have the WWF. Now we are getting into a gray zone. These individuals actually are nothing about fighting at all. The matches are staged, and the violence outside the ring is staged. But it's the "acting" of explicit violence outside the rules of society in the name of entertainment that gets into very sticky territory. Granted from an audience point of view, we are dealing with a group on the low end of the I.Q. and E.Q. spectrum. But it is still acting - period.
And then there is Michael. He raped a naive young girl. He (allegedly) beat one of his women. He bit an ear off an opponent in the ring. And now he assaults his opponents before the beginnings of the sanctioned matches. Not funny. Not entertaining.
Mike Tyson never was and never will be Muhammad Ali.
- Bill
Michael, Michael, Michael....
WWF is on the same page as this psycho tyson in my book. Pretending to kidnap and rape girls is NOT entertainment. The whole thing makes me sick.
Michael, Michael, Michael....
I think we all agree that Tyson is no Ali.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And the promoters seem to be actively fostering this kind of idiocy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely. Anything to draw more interest and money. With Ali, it was benign -- plain "trash talking" as part of the psych game. With Tyson, well, it's been demonstrated over and over again that he needs to fight behind bars.
The Quietman has avoided the "circus" route and he perhaps resultingly is not as well heard or known of, despite holding 1/3 of the heavyweight title. I know his has to play that game at some point. What the price is what I wonder down the line, if he so chooses.
david
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And the promoters seem to be actively fostering this kind of idiocy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Absolutely. Anything to draw more interest and money. With Ali, it was benign -- plain "trash talking" as part of the psych game. With Tyson, well, it's been demonstrated over and over again that he needs to fight behind bars.
The Quietman has avoided the "circus" route and he perhaps resultingly is not as well heard or known of, despite holding 1/3 of the heavyweight title. I know his has to play that game at some point. What the price is what I wonder down the line, if he so chooses.
david
Michael, Michael, Michael....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bill Glasheen:
Not funny. Not entertaining.
Mike Tyson never was and never will be Muhammad Ali.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glasheen-Sensei,
To be Ali, Tyson would have to grow a brain.
Paint it any way you like - it's not a pretty picture and Tyson is simply making it uglier. And the promoters seem to be actively fostering this kind of idiocy.
Seems we agree.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
Not funny. Not entertaining.
Mike Tyson never was and never will be Muhammad Ali.
- Bill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Glasheen-Sensei,
To be Ali, Tyson would have to grow a brain.
Paint it any way you like - it's not a pretty picture and Tyson is simply making it uglier. And the promoters seem to be actively fostering this kind of idiocy.
Seems we agree.
Respectfully,
Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael, Michael, Michael....
Everybody who wants to be successful needs a little marketing. The only question is whether this young man can find a way to get it in a dignified manner. Most decent professional athletes have agents that take care of things like this. If this gentleman isn't getting the exposure he needs to maximize his return on putting his body and brains on the line, then he needs a new agent.
Michael, Michael, Michael....
The problem with Barkley's disavowal was that it didn't come with a rejection of advertising campaigns, endorsements, etc.
Also, I know he signed on to play a game not be a role model but he did chose a life in the public eye. He chooses to put on a team jersey which mean he represents that team. He chooses to represent products. I am not famous and never will be but even in my life I acknowledge responsibility for my behavior. I teach karate. Does that mean I have to be a role model outside of proper execution of technique? Yes it does. Should it mean that? Probably not. But it does and I choose to do it. Barkley's disavowal in my mind was a shirking of responsibility and sort of cowardly. If he doesn't want that role, give up the 7 figure salary.
As to Tyson and Bill Glasheen's question: "where does sport end and crime begin?"... man I hope prison time comes with this. It was assault pure and simple. I thought when he clearly stepped outside the rules of boxing intentionally and bit Holyfield he should have been charged with assault. But this is a slamdunk. Plus he's already a felon. I really hope that he sees a jail cell.
-Blue Skies
P.S. I also get annoyed when Rush Limbaugh says he's just an entertainer and not involved in politics.
Also, I know he signed on to play a game not be a role model but he did chose a life in the public eye. He chooses to put on a team jersey which mean he represents that team. He chooses to represent products. I am not famous and never will be but even in my life I acknowledge responsibility for my behavior. I teach karate. Does that mean I have to be a role model outside of proper execution of technique? Yes it does. Should it mean that? Probably not. But it does and I choose to do it. Barkley's disavowal in my mind was a shirking of responsibility and sort of cowardly. If he doesn't want that role, give up the 7 figure salary.
As to Tyson and Bill Glasheen's question: "where does sport end and crime begin?"... man I hope prison time comes with this. It was assault pure and simple. I thought when he clearly stepped outside the rules of boxing intentionally and bit Holyfield he should have been charged with assault. But this is a slamdunk. Plus he's already a felon. I really hope that he sees a jail cell.
-Blue Skies
P.S. I also get annoyed when Rush Limbaugh says he's just an entertainer and not involved in politics.
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Guest
Michael, Michael, Michael....
Whats the difference between what Mike did,what happens at almost every hockey game.
Whats the difference with what Mike did and Shaq's little attack?
Are we holding these people to different standards?
Laird
Whats the difference with what Mike did and Shaq's little attack?
Are we holding these people to different standards?
Laird
Michael, Michael, Michael....
If players started pressing charges for hockey fights or for Shaq's actions on the court, that's ok by me. Malicious attacks shouldn't be excused just because you are playing a game. (Although I'd hate to be the first hockey player to press charges for one of those things.)
That being said what makes Mike Tyson's actions different? How about the venue? A press conference is not a fight or a game. In fact, the forum is more like a panel debate than anything else. I don't think someone should just be allowed to bite my leg at a debate. Call me crazy. And if you're talking about his bite in the Holyfield fight...how about severity/ferocity? Do you really think that a punch or a shove is the equivalent in malice/intent as biting part of someone's ear off?
I certainly don't think Shaq should be commended for his action but come on!!
We are not holding people to different standards. If Shaq had bit the guy's ear off, I'd say that I feel he should go to jail as well. The problem is Mike Tyson is way past his contemporaries on the scale of egregious behavior.
[This message has been edited by hsohn (edited January 27, 2002).]
That being said what makes Mike Tyson's actions different? How about the venue? A press conference is not a fight or a game. In fact, the forum is more like a panel debate than anything else. I don't think someone should just be allowed to bite my leg at a debate. Call me crazy. And if you're talking about his bite in the Holyfield fight...how about severity/ferocity? Do you really think that a punch or a shove is the equivalent in malice/intent as biting part of someone's ear off?
I certainly don't think Shaq should be commended for his action but come on!!
We are not holding people to different standards. If Shaq had bit the guy's ear off, I'd say that I feel he should go to jail as well. The problem is Mike Tyson is way past his contemporaries on the scale of egregious behavior.
[This message has been edited by hsohn (edited January 27, 2002).]
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Guest
Michael, Michael, Michael....
I thought Mike had already been punished for his past deeds.
This thread was about his most recent.
So he went of the deep end and did something stupid. Surprise surprise, did we expect something else? This is Tyson,we all know who he is. Were we expecting a class act?
So a little grandstanding to sell some tickets got a little out of control,$hit happens.
Did anyone get seriously injured?
Hey how come no one wants to put Lewis in prison he threw a punch.
Here's how I see the event. Tyson rushes over to the the stupid toe too toe stare in your oponents eye intimidation thing.
Lennox's bodyguard? Why does he need a paid bodyguard? Anyhow, the bodyguard rushes in to move Tyson and Mike takes a shot at the guy.
Lewis rushes to his employee's aid taking a shot at Mike. Then the stage filled up with all the members of the entourage.
So why hang it all on Mike , why hang it on anyone. If the boxing commision deems Tyson undesirable then he will not be allowed to fight and that should be the end of him.
IF they do allow him to fight and that is a problem for anyone,vote with your wallet. No one has to buy a ticket or order the pay for veiw.
For the record I'm a big Lewis fan. I think Tyson is an animal that was born to live in the big house. That's a good thing, somebody has to be Buba and I think this man would be effective in this role. I can think of no finer individual to share a cell with, if your a convicted of murder,sex crimes,etc.
But I do think this thread is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to Mikes little show.No offence intended. I wonder if this might have been planned just to sell more tickets.The whole incident smacks of the 3rd rate wrestling dramas that the TV airs.
Mr. Tysons a street punk,he'll die a street punk. Too bad he's had so many chances. Some rise to the occassion some don't.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited January 27, 2002).]
This thread was about his most recent.
So he went of the deep end and did something stupid. Surprise surprise, did we expect something else? This is Tyson,we all know who he is. Were we expecting a class act?
So a little grandstanding to sell some tickets got a little out of control,$hit happens.
Did anyone get seriously injured?
Hey how come no one wants to put Lewis in prison he threw a punch.
Here's how I see the event. Tyson rushes over to the the stupid toe too toe stare in your oponents eye intimidation thing.
Lennox's bodyguard? Why does he need a paid bodyguard? Anyhow, the bodyguard rushes in to move Tyson and Mike takes a shot at the guy.
Lewis rushes to his employee's aid taking a shot at Mike. Then the stage filled up with all the members of the entourage.
So why hang it all on Mike , why hang it on anyone. If the boxing commision deems Tyson undesirable then he will not be allowed to fight and that should be the end of him.
IF they do allow him to fight and that is a problem for anyone,vote with your wallet. No one has to buy a ticket or order the pay for veiw.
For the record I'm a big Lewis fan. I think Tyson is an animal that was born to live in the big house. That's a good thing, somebody has to be Buba and I think this man would be effective in this role. I can think of no finer individual to share a cell with, if your a convicted of murder,sex crimes,etc.
But I do think this thread is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to Mikes little show.No offence intended. I wonder if this might have been planned just to sell more tickets.The whole incident smacks of the 3rd rate wrestling dramas that the TV airs.
Mr. Tysons a street punk,he'll die a street punk. Too bad he's had so many chances. Some rise to the occassion some don't.
Laird
[This message has been edited by uglyelk (edited January 27, 2002).]
Michael, Michael, Michael....
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
The problem with Barkley's disavowal was that it didn't come with a rejection of advertising campaigns, endorsements, etc.
Also, I know he signed on to play a game not be a role model but he did chose a life in the public eye. He chooses to put on a team jersey which mean he represents that team. He chooses to represent products. I am not famous and never will be but even in my life I acknowledge responsibility for my behavior.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If someone were to offer you *BIG BUCKS* for practicing/teaching karate, I think it would be something to consider. If you hard working and honest, you would try to do it the best you can. I think Barkley did that with basketball. He played tough and well and got into to shoving and stuff under the boards as most aggressive players do. But the question is whether just because one has great physical abilities doing something, should the public infer/attribute more than that. If the term "role model" has connotations about the other aspects of life beyond the physical skills being showcased, then I think Barkley is right. He was being honest -- first and foremost, he was being paid to put a ball through a hoop and not to be a role model.
david
The problem with Barkley's disavowal was that it didn't come with a rejection of advertising campaigns, endorsements, etc.
Also, I know he signed on to play a game not be a role model but he did chose a life in the public eye. He chooses to put on a team jersey which mean he represents that team. He chooses to represent products. I am not famous and never will be but even in my life I acknowledge responsibility for my behavior.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If someone were to offer you *BIG BUCKS* for practicing/teaching karate, I think it would be something to consider. If you hard working and honest, you would try to do it the best you can. I think Barkley did that with basketball. He played tough and well and got into to shoving and stuff under the boards as most aggressive players do. But the question is whether just because one has great physical abilities doing something, should the public infer/attribute more than that. If the term "role model" has connotations about the other aspects of life beyond the physical skills being showcased, then I think Barkley is right. He was being honest -- first and foremost, he was being paid to put a ball through a hoop and not to be a role model.
david
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Michael, Michael, Michael....
I will update this when the vote is done. Interesting article...
Nevada commission to decide Tyson's fate
- Bill
Nevada commission to decide Tyson's fate
- Bill
