Apocolypes now

Leon DaDamaga · Post by **Leon DaDamaga** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:10 am

I figured I'd run this through the "tough issues" filter, and see what you guys thought of this articule. Is this guy full of crap? Or is this "reasonably" factual?

http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/saidiraq.htm

Deep Sea · Post by **Deep Sea** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:19 am

Arabs who have suffered the U.S.'s egregious blows

That's pure unmitigated bullsh!t. It's about time. No, it's long past the time when Americans went in to vindicate its slaughtered sons and daughters, slaughtered by the Arabs. Who are those slaughtered sons? Look around you: From Beirut to Africa, and then they marched in [figuratively] to blow up New York City, New York, U. S. A. and killed, in one swell foop, 3,000 helpless and hapless citizens who were in the path of Islamic zealousness plus blew up part of the Pentagon plus tried to blow up some major establishment in DC, probably the White House with another major bomb, foiled by brave Americans who interdicted and prevented further loss of innocent lives.

It's been a long time since American soil has been host to a foreign invasion, hasn't it. How short a memory som have. Well, it's about time somebody in Washington has morals, a back bone with the the balls to go with it to begin the difficult and thankless journey to put a stop to it and make things right.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:14 pm

Check this out
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/lindex.html
I really don't believe all the stuff that I've heard about 9/11..........I know B*llshit when I hear it.
This may be more of the same, but I 'm prepared to listen

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:24 am

Since when is napalm a "chemical weapon" in the sense we have come to use the term "chemical weapon?" Funny, I thought it was an incendiary. That's a big assed stretch, you could call HE a "chemical weapon" with that fine outlay of nonsense.

Too bad we're not using napalm on the massed Iraqi vehicles.

IJ · Post by IJ » Fri Mar 28, 2003 1:00 am

Not too impressed with the site. Lots of overblown claims and unsubstantiated stuff and pretty unimpressive stuff from different angles (german students to have grades reduced for skipping class, oh my!). A little worse (and this is an accomplishment) than a mirror image of the Fox Action McNews from the antiamerican side. Meanwhile, Israel stuffed a coupla of our jets with islamic passengers then what, crashed them into the WTC? Or something like that. Our policy toward Israel is embarassing (here I refer to tons of military aid not contingent on responsible behavior in their conflict) but this stuff is a bit much.

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:27 am

IJ wrote:
Our policy toward Israel is embarassing (here I refer to tons of military aid not contingent on responsible behavior in their conflict) but this stuff is a bit much.

You know, the game of dodgeball on these forums is getting a bit old and as my Dad used to say, God rest his Soul, "It's time to sh*t or get off the pot."

In other words, put up or shut up time. I typed over in another thread that is now locked and no one wanted to answer because if they acknowledge it, their argument is gone.

How are the Israelis supposed to respond in light of the following:

1. Their children and adult population are being deliberately targeted by people that strap bombs on and detonate themselves in public places. Even school buses. Answer it.

2. Arafat and his minions, i.e., terrorists, refuse to remove language from their charter or whatever it is you wish to call it, calling for the destruction of Israel and also refuses to recognize Israel as a Nation.

3. Considering #1 & #2, the only place that I know of where a Palestinian can vote freely and actually be elected to office is in Israel. Isn't that strange?

I don't see where Israel is using military equipment in an irresponsible fashion. I see them responding to a threat and all of that is said with the sure understanding that no one is perfect, Israel is not, we are not and the enemies we both have are most certainly not. Nor are the Palestinians victims as long as they refuse to get along with the Israelis. The Palestinians will not even simply remove hostile language about the destruction of Israel and the refusal to recognize Israel, so how in the hell do you expect Israelis to respond? The wrong way to "sue for peace" is when you are blowing up innocent people and especially children and to expect mercy after you do that is madness and apparently the only people that give that mercy to them in full measure are mentally ill liberals...

I'm sure I am going to get a boatload in return, if you cannot answer these simple questions honestly and intelligently, why even post at all?

nick · Post by **nick** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:20 am

Don,

Is it just me, or do others NOT hear the typical sounds from the middle east?

Syria, no official comment that I have heard. (I would have expected them to offer to join forces with SH )

Jordan, no response.

Lebanon, no offers.

Libya, not a peep.

Egypt, very quiet.

Yemen, no official offers.

There have been protests in these countries, but no troop movements.

What, if anything, do you or others make of this?

nick

(I have my own theories, but would like to hear others.)

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 2:30 pm

Syria now has a policy of open border into Iraq for any Syrian that wishes to go and fight for Saddam Hussein's dying nightmare.

Saddam's henchmen from the Ba'th Party are using mortar and automatic weapons fire to slay the Iraqi civilians attempting to flee Basra.

The Iraqis are fighting behind human shields and when it goes to ground in Baghdad, you will no doubt see Snipers firing from apartments filled with innocent women and children because that is the way these cowards conduct warfare, i.e., illegally.

What we need to do is gather all of the Marine Scout/Snipers and deploy them right to Iraq and then they can surgically remove these cretins from around the innocent people they are using as shields, I'm sure they are doing that to a degree right now because we are doing our best to limit civilian casualties.

IJ · Post by IJ » Sat Mar 29, 2003 10:13 pm

Not sure what merited the belligerent reply, Don, but here's mine:

All I said (other than that I thought the site was over the top and that I generally agreed with you) is that our aid to Israel isn't dependent on whether they conduct their defense in the manner we see fit. Hasn't the US chided Israel for building and defending settlements that are either illegal or at a minimum very provocative, that is, in the west bank? Do we 100% support their policy of bombing the homes of families of suicide bombers? I don't think we do.

1) How are Israelis supposed to defend themselves against people who target public places? Um, it's damn tough. If a single person for example wanted to terrorize the US and had 200$ or even less to do it with, it'd be damn easy. Does building settlements that piss off people who then bomb them help?

2) When did Israel recognize Palestine as a nation? These are two groups in an intractable fight because they think they own the land and the other doesn't. Does bombing the home of a suicide bomber protect Israel from Arafat's lack of diplomatic recognition?

3) Not really.

4) This is breaking news, but not every palestinian can be equated with every other one. Some of the ones that are killed (by a country "blowing up innocent people"--not as intentionally) are without violent wishes. There ARE palestinians who can live at peace with israel, there are others that will NEVER, and the problem is we dont know which are actually wearing dynamite when they step on the buses. The Israelis also aren't responding in one block. There IS actually some gray involved in this matter, and it's not just as Star Wars simple as good and evil.

I don't know if that constitutes a "boatload," but there it is. Keep in mind when replying that I support Israel in large part and condem any violence against innocent people. I think much of Islam is characterized by a fanatic, antifreedom, antiwoman, antipeace, antiwest mentality that's not compatible with a successful society. So before you lob any baseless accusations about an inability to answer simple questions honestly and intelligently my way, recall that--and try not to regress to name-calling ("mentally ill liberals").

I'm further unconvined that there is too much to be gained from classifying warfare as illegal or legal. Here, Iraq is hopelessly outgunned; the US insists that they have a standup fight on the level of the stealth bomber which they obviously can't compete in. I'm not particularly surprised that these fanatics are conducting their war impolitely and are using propaganda and civilian shields and suicide bombers... that's just their best chance, and they're determined to win. Maybe the US would use suicide bombers if we were hopelessly outgunned in combat. I know this isn't a real campaign, but I recall the kamikaze attack at the end of "Independence Day" as being characterized, and received by audiences, in the most heroic way--which seems appropriate, given the motivation. So maybe we should criticize motivations for war instead of techiniques which are more forced by circumstance. Re: the Iraqis shooting their own civilians, it's indefensible, it's the act of cowards and petty tyrants, and I'd love a reference. But given that, how many people died when we incinerated Hiroshima or Dresden? How many were civilians?

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 7:04 am

IJ wrote:
All I said (other than that I thought the site was over the top and that I generally agreed with you) is that our aid to Israel isn't dependent on whether they conduct their defense in the manner we see fit.

Then we do what France, Germany and Russia are attempting to do with us through the U.N. and that is tell us how we are going to defend ourselves, we then tell the Israelis how they are going to do it. I don't think that is particularly fair when they are the ones picking their kids up out of the street.

Hasn't the US chided Israel for building and defending settlements that are either illegal or at a minimum very provocative, that is, in the west bank?

I personally think "The Settlements" are a wacky idea. I also think it does not much matter if they ended tomorrow, the Palestinians would still be doing what they have done for years.

Do we 100% support their policy of bombing the homes of families of suicide bombers? I don't think we do.

I heard a Gentleman who is an Israeli the other day on the radio commenting about Al Jazeera airing footage of our POWs. He stated that this used to happen to captured Israelis as well, then the video would air with torture footage or that of mutilating a dead body. Then Mossad would hunt down every person involved and kill them. He said from the people that did it to the people that filmed it, from the person that dubbed the tape to the person that put it in a cab to go to the media. DEAD.

They live in a tough place and if you want to play with bomb belts, you're going to get the weight of the response. I think back to the picture of the infant in a bomb belt and think that the infant did not have much of what we would consider to be a "family."

1) How are Israelis supposed to defend themselves against people who target public places? Um, it's damn tough. If a single person for example wanted to terrorize the US and had 200$ or even less to do it with, it'd be damn easy. Does building settlements that piss off people who then bomb them help?

Like I said, this would be going on settlements or no settlements. You make a fine point, however, they don't have a measly $200.00 though, they have alot of money because terrorism, like racism, is a big business.

I think Israel has more or less created a Zero Tolerance Policy with teeth. The violence will continue until someone wakes up and realizes they have a right to exist there.

2) When did Israel recognize Palestine as a nation? These are two groups in an intractable fight because they think they own the land and the other doesn't. Does bombing the home of a suicide bomber protect Israel from Arafat's lack of diplomatic recognition?

Arafat's "diplomatic recognition?" He's a criminal. He's a thugass terrorist. He's a profiteer of misery and conflict, he is rich off of it. He's not even Palestinian, he's Egyptian. I would imagine when the Palestinians are tired of this and they get someone else to go to bat for them, things might improve.

4) This is breaking news, but not every palestinian can be equated with every other one. Some of the ones that are killed (by a country "blowing up innocent people"--not as intentionally) are without violent wishes. There ARE palestinians who can live at peace with israel, there are others that will NEVER, and the problem is we dont know which are actually wearing dynamite when they step on the buses. The Israelis also aren't responding in one block. There IS actually some gray involved in this matter, and it's not just as Star Wars simple as good and evil.

I understand that and nodded to that when I said Palestinians could vote and hold office in Israel, i.e., there has to be a certain segment of the population that are good, law-abiding people because they already exist in that Government.

I don't know if that constitutes a "boatload," but there it is. Keep in mind when replying that I support Israel in large part and condem any violence against innocent people.

I don't like to see truly innocent people hurt in any way either. I also think that at times it is the inevitable result of war. War is a terrible thing but as necessary as it is terrible as well. At times, war is necessary because not going to war carries a much higher price.

...and try not to regress to name-calling ("mentally ill liberals").

I believe that liberals like Michael Moore are mentally ill. Or, hopeless liars, maybe a little bit of both, you never know. I've seen the same nutter frequency on this board too, if you did not do it, that's great. But if I see another:

"Well, sh*t! I don't know what is going on, but it sure looks like something is going on, therefore I know something foul is afoot!"

Posts, I'm gonna hurl. That's mental, friend.

I'm not particularly surprised that these fanatics are conducting their war impolitely and are using propaganda and civilian shields and suicide bombers... that's just their best chance, and they're determined to win.

I can understand the suicide bombers. I will never understand marching innocent people out so you can use them as cover.

Re: the Iraqis shooting their own civilians, it's indefensible, it's the act of cowards and petty tyrants, and I'd love a reference.

Watch the news and not Al Jazeera either. That and a whole lot more.

But given that, how many people died when we incinerated Hiroshima or Dresden? How many were civilians?

You forgot Nagasaki.

I think we have tried to evolve from that. I don't have a source for this, given the nature of the Internet, perhaps someone will search to verify or shoot it down. But I think Churchill deliberately targeted a Children's Hospital in World War Two in retaliation against Germany.

As I said, war is a horrible thing but I think anyone who is honest would say that as times change, and they have, perhaps we won't have to do that anymore and certainly not to the degree that we have in the past with regard to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I think we have went to great lengths to limit civilian casualties in this conflict we are in right now. And it will cost us some lives in the process. As Saddam and his minions move about to use the civilians as cover, this will increase horribly. It is predictable and it is not our fault either, it is his fault.

I think Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are illustrative of the fact that sometimes you have to break the back of the enemy. To break their spirit. I also believe had we invaded Japan, we would have lost more people and the JAPANESE would have ultimately lost more people than they did when those two bombs were dropped. As it happened, it broke them and we did not have to resort to an invasion. In other words, I think it is better to kill 50,000 in an instant than 125,000 in three months. Not that those numbers are correct, I'm talking about proportion.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 8:21 pm

Hi Don,
Didn't you see my post

......I'm through asking questions, I know what happened. But lets backtrack a little

.
You said that Iraq was a poor little nation and that America wasn't after her oil reserves..remember

and I told you that it had the third largest oil reserves in the world....next we have the question of foreign aid...and lets be brutally frank America is not generous,
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/policy/ ... id.html#Q4
foreign aid is not for Charity...in fact most American Foreign aid goes to pay for Isreali guns.
You seemed to think that the US was playing Santa Claus....and you just cannot understand why your country is hated.
http://www.anzwers.org/free/beyondstars/amerhate.htm
Bush couldn't give a stuff about the poor or the dying in Iraq, what he wants is the oil
http://www.counterpunch.org/oconnell03202003.html
The Viteraputive cant that you are so fond of dishing out doesn't stick

quote
"I believe that liberals like Michael Moore are mentally ill. Or, hopeless liars, maybe a little bit of both, you never know. I've seen the same nutter frequency on this board too, if you did not do it, that's great. But if I see another:

"Well, sh*t! I don't know what is going on, but it sure looks like something is going on, therefore I know something foul is afoot!"

Posts, I'm gonna hurl. That's mental, friend."
I've counted 4 people on the forums that you have said are mentally ill.........hate to say this

.....but the insults we send to others sometimes reflect our own mental states

... Don ,you're starting to scare me

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Sun Mar 30, 2003 9:43 pm

Jorvik,

Yes, you should work for the CIA as you know more than the leaders of my country and yes, I think you are mentally ill.

Why do I think you are mentally ill? Because of your grandiose pronouncements that you know something is "foul" but you don't quite know what it is! Then you come back and you magically know more than this country's leaders because you read about it on a slanted website.

Yes, I don't think it is an insult to call someone mentally ill when they are exhibiting that mental illness. You have pumped nonsense in these discussions and now you want to claim that we really ****** and we don't give out grants, loans and aid to other people.

Please. Someone ban this person. This isn't funny anymore.

Panther · Post by **Panther** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:16 pm

I am watching and reading... (even the links to other sites).

However, rather than comment, dispute, refute, disagree, agree, corroborate, or take any other stand at this time, I just remind everyone to make their points, state their case, discuss the positions.

Then again... I'm starting to think like Canna-sensei....

Have at it... But I'm still here...

Don Rearic · Post by **Don Rearic** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 4:22 pm

Panther,

That's cool...one has to pick and choose time very wisely when one has a lot to do. This thing makes for fast communications, but shooting down every hairbrained idea or comment gets old after a while.

So I also have to take a check because this gets involved. I'm busy writing a Home Defense Book surrounding Physical Security as opposed to "Grab a Gun and Shoot Someone Quick!" type of book and along with the website, it wears on a person with limited time.

What I'm trying to say is, I'm already honed, I don't have to stroke on a oiled whetstone any debating or reasoning abilities I have, forums are cool for that. But when it becomes Romper Room meets Oliver Stone Conspiracy Fantasy Time...whew...

That is an absolutely fruitless endeavor, but there might be hope for Jorvik yet, I hear there is an opening for Bag-Gnad Reporter for NBC, MSNBC and National Geographic as of this morning.

jorvik · Post by **jorvik** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:10 pm

Hi ,Don,
Can you really direct me to a left wing website were my comments would be supported and endorsed, and I could earn a few dollars

.....that would be really cool,,,,,,guess I had you all wrong.

PS...good luck with the book .....sounds like riveting reading, need any help on understanding terrorists

...just send me a PM............( I'm cool on conspiracy theories and mental health issues as well

)

Apocolypes now

Apocolypes now

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