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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:38 am 
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Outstanding thread Van sensei. Keep it coming.

Rich


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:19 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Adrenaline can be experienced in two main forms, Anticipated and Unexpected. If we expect something unpleasant is going to happen our body will release adrenaline in order to prepare us for confrontation the more unpleasant the experience the more adrenaline is released.

When something unpleasant happens that we don't expect adrenaline is dumped into the bloodstream in one go so that we enter a type of "overdrive state". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:42 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your body is going to play some tricks on you. All these are part of the basic mammalian FIGHT-OR-FLIGHT reflex.

your hands get sweaty, your heart pounds, your large muscle groups get stronger, and most people feel a need to vomit or relieve themselves. This is totally normal. No problem.

The survival reflex is not a matter of personal "courage" or lack thereof. It is a profound and complex physiological event designed to prepare the animal within to either fight or flee for its life:
When fear explodes inside of you, your sympathetic nervous system instantly dumps a variety of natural drugs and hormones into your body to cause a high arousal state known as fear.

You are literally under the influence of these natural chemicals, so your body operates differently, just as it would under the influence of a chemical you deliberately ingested.

These changes enhance basic animal fighting skills, so they may be useful in a hand-to-hand brawl. "The fight or flight response has not changed since caveman days, when people fought with their bare hands or with clubs and rocks," writes Chris Bird.

But, expert Ayoob advises, "there is a downside to this....you will experience gross, severe, dramatic, cataclysmic loss of fine motor coordination. Dexterity falls through your ass....The hands will begin to tremble.

Hysterical or temporary blindness, amaurosis fugax, is another serious visual effect that, according to Ayoob, "seems to happen to people who are not prepared for violence and who are not trained for it," whom he calls "lightweight amateurs."

This visual "whiteout" occurs because "the mind has seen something so terrifying, it refuses to look at it any longer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited February 14, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:41 am 
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It sounds to me that like as in my example of an attack happening to fast that I had no time to 'get scared,' that it's better to have 'no fear' or at least less fear. At least then one has a chance of maintaining the relaxation and dexterity needed to perform proper technique in the fight, which is important in Wing Chun. Bruce also said when asked that he had 'no fear' of the opponent, so it would seem that this 'no fear' mindset is preferred by some.

Many of the students in our family, it could be said, are *very* confident in their skills and this is largely because of their firm belief in Wing Chun and their ability to use it. This is also in part fostered by great men like the Late Great Grand Master Yip Man (my teacher’s teacher and Bruce Lee’s teacher) who, no matter, what you think of him was a great teacher and fighter, but he would say things like, "If any student of mine who can truly perform the system up to the 2nd form ever loses a fight to another style I'll throw myself off the top of the school’s roof ..." Many other Sifus in the overall family of Wing Chun, including my own (Moy Yat) would not hesitate to tell students to fight, rather ‘kick his ball…’ Image if challenged. The Chinese martial art community is, at least in my experience, quite different than the more Americanized and humble Japanese schools in this respect. When some student would (usually indirectly) suggest to Sifu that they had a fear of being attacked he would usually say something like, "Just kick his ass and be done with it..." and perhaps follow it up with..'if your scared then train more….later not scared anymore.' This turned out to be largely true. In Hong Kong many in Yip Man’s school would follow through with this attitude and fight in challenge matches. But that mentality did and does, for those still alive exist for many in the Wing Chun community in many Chinatowns around the world.

Whatever you may think of it - I think in the end that this attitude is, at least for old style Wing Chun people, better to have than not. I have always been proud of the cockiness of 'the family', and after all their successes in Hong Kong, (not to mention Bruce) they had reason to boast and I think this cockiness can be an asset in combat depending on the student.

Jim



[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 15, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:45 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
It sounds to me that like as in my example of an attack happening to fast that I had to time to 'get scared,' that it's better to have 'no fear' or at least less fear.


True…I think good training in a good style, and the putting into action through scenario training what we practice, goes a long way to condition us to the adrenaline response, which makes us better able to perform under fearful situations.

Perhaps it is best to characterize the Tachypsychia effects as body alarm reactions instead of fear..Although fear is a survival instinct very much hard wired.

Such body alarm reactions vary depending on the level of the threat, and we must train to replicate those moments and attempt to function in spite of it.

The best way to put martial arts technique into useful response action is to participate in scenario training such as the bulletmen or the Blauer approach.

This must be understood:

When something unpleasant happens that we don't expect adrenaline is dumped into the bloodstream in one go so that we enter a type of "overdrive state.”

It has nothing to do with style or time to have fear. The chemicals are released in an instant, and unless we can control the effects, we will not be as effective as we could be in confrontations.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> The survival reflex is not a matter of personal "courage" or lack thereof. It is a profound and complex physiological event designed to prepare the animal within to either fight or flee for its life.

These changes enhance basic animal fighting skills, so they may be useful in a hand-to-hand brawl. "The fight or flight response has not changed since caveman days, when people fought with their bare hands or with clubs and rocks," writes Chris Bird. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Clearly it is not about fear or lack of it, but more about fear management we should be focusing on in our training.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Many of the students in our family, it could be said, are *very* confident in their skills and this is largely because of their firm belief in Wing Chun and their ability to use it.


wing chun is a good style, but many other similar excellent styles foster the same confidence and abilities to use their specific techniques. But this discussion is not about styles__

Styles, as good as they might be, do not override the natural SNS response. It is our responsibility to make the style work in spite of the SNS interference through realistic scenario training.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
"If any student of mine who can truly perform the system up to the 2nd form ever loses a fight to another style I'll throw myself off the top of the school’s roof ..."


Not sure that the average intelligent student would feel comfortable with that statement that smacks of conceit.
Obviously in the real world things are not that simple. Are you sure he really said that?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
The Chinese martial art community is, at least in my experience, quite different than the more Americanized and humble Japanese schools in this respect.


Jim, I would caution you to not say things that some people of different styles might find personally offensive.
This is not a style bashing forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I have always been proud of the cockiness of 'the family', and after all their successes in Hong Kong, (not to mention Bruce) they had reason to boast and I think this cockiness can be an asset in combat depending on the student.


This attitude will definitely get people killed in the streets.





------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:29 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Chinese martial art community is, at least in my experience, quite different than the more Americanized and humble Japanese schools in this respect. When some student would (usually indirectly) suggest to Sifu that they had a fear of being attacked he would usually say something like, "Just kick his ass and be done with it..." and perhaps follow it up with..'if your scared then train more….later not scared anymore.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim,

I grew up in Boston's Chinatown and still work in it. Grew up with many martial artists of different styles, including wing chun. Never heard or noticed that mindset as being characteristic of a specific school or style.

Perhaps, you're referring to oversea chinese community? I have friends who go back to Hong Kong often. My understanding is that fights don't often go hand to hand anymore between two individuals. More often, multiple people with meat cleavers in hands...

Even here in Boston, a one-on-one is not simple. You kick someone's butt, you have better be willing to kill him. If not, he's back with buddies and ready to plug or shank you. No such thing as an easy "kick his a$$" and be done with it. Other American Chinatowns can be even more drastic, given the greater numbers and more "competing" groups.

Regarding SNS, A loud noise or angry shout can trigger me. In fact, it happened the other day. Someone screamed and immediately I experienced a chemical dump. Definitely not fear per se, since I didn't even have time to register what's up. Turned out to be someone shouting after someone else who was driving away. The first person forgot something in the car...

Are there studies done about how quickly or no so quickly, the dump happens depending on what one has experienced in terms of past traumatic events?

david


[This message has been edited by david (edited February 15, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2002 10:48 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Not sure that the average intelligent student would feel comfortable with that statement that smacks of conceit.
Obviously in the real world things are not that simple. Are you sure he really said that?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, well, according to that generation, obviously I did not train with Yip Man as he died in 1972 and he would never have taught Gwai Lo anyway (white ghosts) and I am white. An article in this months Kung-Fu Qi-Gung magazine talks about the old days and Yip Man quite a bit and this is confirmed by what I have been told by others that studied under him.

You have to understand the mentality of the older masters, such as Yip Man, Moy Yat, William Chung, Wong Sheung Leung etc. this is the attitude they had. Of course when Yip said that he was talking about those students that really trained the system and not the 2 day a week people. Now a days we understand that indeed things are not always that simple but the main thrust of his belief is still held by many even today. I would try to elaborate further but am now concerned that the tone would be offensive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Jim, I would caution you to not say things that some people of different styles might find personally offensive.
This is not a style bashing forum.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was only trying to relate my experience, training with a very traditional part of the old school Wing Chun clan e.g. the Moy Clan and I said nothing derogatory about any other style!

I thought some might find it interesting to get an idea of what is said behind closed doors in this old Wing Chun family. There is no way to relate my experience without also telling it like it was and relating what was said and done.

I also said that I have found the Americanized Japanese schools to be more humble that the Chinese schools… I can’t see how that is bashing. Most humble people consider that to be a positive attribute and those who choose not to be humble are also comfortable with that choice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david:
I grew up in Boston's Chinatown and still work in it. Grew up with many martial artists of different styles, including wing chun. Never heard or noticed that mindset as being characteristic of a specific school or style.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don’t know who you knew but it wasn’t anyone from Yip’s school I wouldn’t think. As I said, Wong Sheung Leung, Bruce et al including my late Sifu as well as most of the other students of Yip Man were all very unapologetic about telling it the way they saw it. Most of them fought in the streets, including, WSL, Bruce, and others and they very much believed in what they said. I have found this cocky attitude in some other Kung-Fu families too although my experience is mainly with Wing Chun. There is, again, in my experience a sharp contrast between the attitudes I have found in Japanese schools I have attended and the Chinese schools I have attended. Those people I know that have trained in both also have seen this.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by david:
Perhaps, you're referring to oversea chinese community? I have friends who go back to Hong Kong often. My understanding is that fights don't often go hand to hand anymore between two individuals. More often, multiple people with meat cleavers in hands...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I was talking mainly about the challenge matches that took place in Hong Kong. The old Wing Chun people, as I said, WSL, Bruce and others, would often fight against other people from other schools, especially Choy Li Fut people, sometimes on roof tops etc. This is all old news as is the success they had in those fights. Of course there were other fights, Bruce used to get into fights all the time and eventually had problems with the law as a result. All of these fights had a major impact on the reputation that Wing Chun developed in Hong Kong at that time as being an effective system.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
This attitude will definitely get people killed in the streets.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be right, but so far I haven’t seen any problems with those I know as a result of this cockiness. Most of us know our limitations and most of us are not looking for a fight. Those that are, well that is the path they have chosen. Bruce had this attitude for sure and was very confident in his abilities. One of my seniors works in a max security prison, he is also quite confident. I brought this up only because I thought it might be interesting for others to get an inside look at what goes on in some parts of the Wing Chun family; and on this topic I think to some extent this kind of school attitude/cockiness can be of benefit to the student to help bolster his confidence in combat should he find himself there.

After all most of the Navy Seals I've met are also quite cocky, and I'll bet this is to their benefit. Wing Chun is a very close range system that does all it’s real work at a breath smelling distance – and it seems to me that you have to really believe in the system and yourself if you are going to launch yourself at your opponent and fight at that range.

Jim



[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 15, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:59 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
You have to understand the mentality of the older masters, such as Yip Man, Moy Yat, William Chung, Wong Sheung Leung etc. this is the attitude they had. Of course when Yip said that he was talking about those students that really trained the system and not the 2-day a week people. Now a days we understand that indeed things are not always that simple but the main thrust of his belief is still held by many even today.


Well, yes and no. There are a multitude of budoka today who train as assiduously as some of the people of old, and they train in the force continuum concept, i.e., from empty hands to weapons and still they understand that there are so many variations of the physical and mental and tactical persuasion in real combative situations that their best response action, may still remain, at best, marginal.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
I was only trying to relate my experience, training with a very traditional part of the old school Wing Chun clan e.g. the Moy Clan and I said nothing derogatory about any other style!


It is a matter of perception. The implication of style superiority is in the way you present your thoughts, and some people will feel slighted. We want to avoid that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Most of them fought in the streets, including, WSL, Bruce, and others and they very much believed in what they said. I have found this cocky attitude in some other Kung-Fu families too although my experience is mainly with Wing Chun.


I think all styles have tales of masters’ bravado..and that is a good thing..But it is best to avoid the perception of conceit and arrogance.

And what of the UfC experience, where about all the styles of martial arts were soundly defeated__

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
Wing Chun is a very close range system that does all it’s real work at a breath smelling distance – and it seems to me that you have to really believe in the system and yourself if you are going to launch yourself at your opponent and fight at that range.


I agree. So is Uechi..And we do believe in the style but there is more to consider, much more, and that is the theme of this forum.



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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 2:05 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
I think all styles have tales of masters’ bravado..and that is a good thing..But it is best to avoid the perception of conceit and arrogance.

And what of the UfC experience, where about all the styles of martial arts were soundly defeated__

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps we come from different worlds. Most of the people I have seen fight at the UFC are not using martial arts. Mainly what I see at the UFC and these type of events are grapplers. I have seen no quality Karate or Kung-Fu people. Now, I have not seen all the UFCs there are or carefully reviewed all the fighters but what I have seen has fallen into on or more of these categories:

1. Grappler
2. Point Fighter
3. Boxer
4. Kick Boxer
5. Brawler


I have not seen any real Karate or Kung Fu. I have not seen anyone with the skill of my seniors fighting there. I have not seen any martial concepts used there that I have learned in any style I’ve studied including Shotokan, my brief experience with Uechi, Wing Chun, or any hard Kung-Fu such as Tiger or Eagle claw nor any Chinese internal styles such as Tai-Chi. Bagua, Hsing Yee, or Aikido concepts, nothing, none of it have I ever seen in the UFC, not one drop.

If people think that's all there is out there in the way of skill, that horse stances are things best left for large animals and have no place in real fighting, that 'technique' or stealing balance doesn't work against a brawler, that old masters who weighed as much as an 8th grader who could take on 2 or 3 people at once is a myth, then I have news for them: There are real martial arts and people out there who can perform the real arts. How can a thinking person believe that the old Masters, or Founders of these martial systems never knew of the existence of brawlers or street fighters and didn’t understand combat?

I also tend to think that, at least in the beginning. the UFC was created to promote Gracie Ju-Jitsu. In one 'real' fight I was in before I began training I learned that when fighting humans who act like animals they will sometimes bite like animals. Now it seems to me that some of this new and 'superior' grappling falls down when the teeth come into play...when fighting on the street comes into play. In for example, the Gracie Guard position, you are on your back and to protect yourself you pull the guy very close to you so that he can't punch you, or otherwise do damage. In this position hugging the guy on your back his head usually ends up next to yours resting on the shoulder area. Now, what a nice place to be in...in the subway, laying on your back hugging a crazed madman whose mouth is only an inch from your neck and ear. Now does anyone else see a problem here?

The old styles, meaning, All Kung-Fu, Karate, Aikido etc, emphasized staying on ones feet. There is good reason for this: If you're on the ground with multiple attackers your DEAD. In my experience muggers rarely operate alone, since they are cowards and even odds don't appeal to cowards. Multiple attackers is a fact of life and grappling does not cut it in the face of multiple attackers. If you introduce blades into the equation then rolling around on the floor becomes even less desirable.

The old arts did what they did for a reason. The old arts are real. And I think it’s sad that with each passing day, respect for traditional martial arts is lost in favor of much less refined, brutish and crude training methods and styles. As for those who think the effectiveness of the old arts are a myth I say it’s their loss.

Jim



[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 16, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:01 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well I don’t know who you knew but it wasn’t anyone from Yip’s school I wouldn’t think. As I said, Wong Sheung Leung, Bruce et al including my late Sifu as well as most of the other students of Yip Man were all very unapologetic about telling it the way they saw it. Most of them fought in the streets, including, WSL, Bruce, and others and they very much believed in what they said. I have found this cocky attitude in some other Kung-Fu families too although my experience is mainly with Wing Chun. There is, again, in my experience a sharp contrast between the attitudes I have found in Japanese schools I have attended and the Chinese schools I have attended. Those people I know that have trained in both also have seen this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim, this is the guy I know and hung out with:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>PROFILE:
Si-Fu DANA WONG
Resident Instructor, Melbourne Headquarters


Si-fu Dana Wong was born in America, growing up in Boston, Massachusetts in the 1950's. Being slight of build and of Asian descent, he was an easy mark for the school bullies. At an early age, he learned of racial prejudice and small-minded people.

After growing up with constant taunts, threats and schoolyard scuffles, he saw the late Bruce Lee on television in "The Green Hornet". Like so many who were influenced by Lee, Wong made his way to a karate school to begin training, dreaming someday of being a confident and self-assured martial artist.

Finding karate not to his liking, Wong drifted around in the martial arts, dabbling in various kung fu styles. They suited him better than karate did, but something still seemed to be missing.

So it was that Wong jumped at the chance to learn Wing Chun when a high school classmate offered to get him into the class. This was during the late 1960's and kung fu was still a bit secret, even to some Chinese. This Wing Chun class was thus, with only a handful of students, and any prospective newcomers had to be accepted by the rest of the classmates.

Having been accepted after 10 months of waiting, Wong found Wing Chun Kung Fu to be superior to the other arts he'd learned earlier. Its effectiveness was tested in the training sessions, and on the streets.

Time passed, and Wong put martial arts aside as he attended Boston University. Studies in advertising and public relations replaced Wing Chun and martial arts. Upon graduation, Wong began a successful career in graphic design. After years in the graphics field, he longed to complete his martial arts training and wanted to resume his childhood dreams of being a martial artist.

It was then that he read a magazine article on Grandmaster William Cheung. After reading the article, he wrote the Grandmaster a letter, describing his earlier training in Wing Chun, and asked if there was a student or friend of his in America under whom Wong could train. Fate stepped in when the Grandmaster wrote back to say he would come to America to teach him personally. That was 1982.

For the next five years, the Grandmaster did just that, coming to America to teach Wong while he was travelling on his world tours. Finally, in 1988, Wong came to Australia seeking his Instructor's level, hoping to return to America and open his own Wing Chun school.

But he liked Australia, and the Grandmaster offered to teach him further, and so Wong stayed. One year ran into another, and for the last 10 years, Si-fu Dana Wong has himself taught thousands of Australians, and others, the art of Traditional Wing Chun as the Chief Instructor at World Headquarters in Melbourne.

His desire to teach others, and to spread the art of Traditional Wing Chun, has led him to produce his own instructors. His childhood dream of someday becoming a martial arts influence himself was realised in 1997, when Blitz Magazine named him their Hall of Fame Kung Fu Instructor of the Year.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The link to his profile can be found here:
http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WWCKFAindex.html

Really doesn't matter, as he wasn't studying under William Cheung then. And, as you said, the fights you're referring to is "old news" of "back in the days..." I thought you're referring to present day in your previous post. The (Chinese) tough guys who would have fought in the streets in the "old days" don't even train anymore. Training is predominantly on the streets and bare hands are at the bottom of the force continuum. Just the other day, I was talking to cop who arrested 8 young Chinese teens for fighting. Everyone was packing a pipe and/or knife. Kung fu schools around here are now mostly populated by "qwai lo's." Can't say I like the evolution but it is what it is.

david

PS. Dana "found" wing chun. His brother studied praying mantis and now tai chi. Some others did/do bak mei. I and some of my friends found Uechi. And some others, boxing. I thought we all did okay out there then. It wasn't about "style." It was about the times and having the "balls" to do what we felt had to. None of us would go around trying prove it now out there.

[This message has been edited by david (edited February 15, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:41 am 
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David:
I was just trying to explain the elitist attitude that is quite prevalent and fairly unique, in my experience, to Wing Chun. The typical school, at least those that I am familiar, teach this elitism, which I will refrain from explaining in detail here unless asked. I was attempting to address how that might impact the development of the student’s psyche and later how that might affect his ability in combat.

P.S.

It should be noted that "Traditional Wing Chun" as referred to by followers of William Chung refers to William Chung's version of the system only. When I say Traditional Wing Chun I refer to most other varieties of the system as taught by my Late Sifu and others excluding William Chung's version, which is quite a bit different than everyone else's version.

Jim


[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 15, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:03 am 
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"If by using the term 'true master' one means an individual who cannot be defeated in combat, then there are no masters. Anyone can be beaten; any man can be killed "

This includes the cocky seals you talk about, Jim…they can be killed in street fights just as any other, and their cockiness will hasten their demise. The elitism you speak of is an inexorable double edged sword.

The dynamics of a street fight are way too complex for any one discipline to claim mastery.

" Real fights are always sloppy affairs. They seldom offer any display of formal martial training by either combatant. This seems to be true regardless of whether the fighters are black belts or have no training at all."

One way to learn this lesson is to participate in bulletmen scenarios..The results will open your eyes.

One of my favorite authors is Peyton Quinn. He writes that martial artists who have not been in real fights are fond of obsessing with “stylistic aspects” of their favorite systems, such as smooth/superior techniques, and “tradition”!

Trouble is they are fond of envisioning a street attack according to their world model.

It is real fun to be in the same room with about 25 martial artists of different styles and ask them to individually describe to you an “imagined” street attack and defense.

Most of the times it will always come down to the “man” behind the style, the simplest techniques and the determination to lay it on the line, as David points out.

Something else Peyton writes about that’s interesting. Some martial artists when rebutting some of the things we argue on this forum are fond of bringing up their “stories” of successful defense or survival.

According to Peyton, the adrenal effect has very likely left them with a distorted memory of what actually happened.

He believes there is many cases where these “survivors” did not use the techniques or approach they trained on and “know” in the real combat incident.

“To the contrary, they may have done something entirely spontaneous_ not what they trained on at all_ that actually saved them. But they may recall as having performed as they trained because that is the only rational context within which to frame the adrenal event.”

Think of why this happens. It has nothing to do with the right “family” of style.. The right sensei etc.

The UFC and NHB events have vaporized the imagined supremacy of traditional martial artist, no matter what their dojo skills.

If a true wing chun or other style master really thought he had the right skills to prevail, he would have engaged those fighters long ago.

Think of the real reasons why they do not partake in the action.

You watch, or better yet, enter a NHB or valetudo competition, such as our Joe Pomfret, and you will quickly realize how limiting traditional techniques can be, acting alone without “companion” cross training.

One book on street reality I recommend to you Jim, is ‘Real fighting” by Peyton Quinn.

Lots of time and street tested common sense.

A good style and serious traditional training is of course very desirable..But it must not be allowed to descend into delusive states.



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:16 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
"If by using the term 'true master' one means an individual who cannot be defeated in combat, then there are no masters
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A true Master to me is one who has mastered his system, meaning fully understands it and can nearly perform it to perfection. Of course a master can be defeated…


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
This includes the cocky seals you talk about, Jim…they can be killed in street fights just as any other, and their cockiness will hasten their demise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course a Seal can be killed, it happens way too often in fact. However I strongly disagree that ‘cockiness’ or strong confidence is to their detriment. If that were so then why does the government, who has done years of study, train their Seals and other SF people to believe that they can win in any situation? In my opinion it is because when you’re in deep s**t you had better believe that you can find a way out or YOU ARE DEAD!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
The dynamics of a street fight are way too complex for any one discipline to claim mastery.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To coin a phrase, yes and no. Yes, there are tons of variables. Yes nothing in life or in combat is certain. But I believe as do others that there is a best way to do something, to do a particular movement, a best way to train to react, a best reaction to a given stimulus, a best way in essence to get from point A to point B. Apparently the creators of the many martial systems agree with me or else why bother inventing a fighting style? Again I don’t want to go in to too much detail here, as it might be offensive but the basis of Wing Chun is to use the shortest path to success in every move it uses, in every theory etc. There are a limited number of ways one can be attacked after all, in terms of energy and Wing Chun attempts to train the best reaction to these 8 types of energy.

Another tidbit:

What is the difference in lap time between an Olympic sprinter and the casual runner next door? Is the Olympic runner twice as fast? No. Half again as fast? No. 25% faster? Nope. The difference in speed among healthy humans is only a small percentage, like say 10% or less. This means that the difference between the fastest guy in the dojo and the slowest guy is still only a small percentage difference. Okay so that means that if you can cut the time needed to do a particular combat movement, say in half you just zoomed past even the fastest guy by making your structure more efficient than his is. This is what Wing Chun does. Wing Chun does not use circular strikes for this reason. If someone throws a circular strike at the Wing Chun man he does not block per se, he shoots in and throws a straight blast….etc He trains at a range that others do not, trapping range, where the movements can be as small as possible, sight is useless, and strike penetration is devastating.

Some may not understand that in fact Wing Chun is a system. Most martial arts schools that I have attended teach punches and kicks, tools, and then it is up to the student more or less to figure out what to do with these tools so it's little wonder the white belts fight the same as the black belts, as you said, in real fights - they were never taught how to use them. In Wing Chun the student is told how to use each tool he is taught, when, where and why. He is reprogrammed in fact to look for lines, and apply theories taught in the system, like Aikido does. There is little interpretation in Wing Chun and the student’s goal in this system is to be able to ‘do the system.’ At a higher level it is said that instead of the student doing the system the system does you. Meaning the sensitivity training has made the correct reactions automatic. This is why Wing Chun people would rather fight people from other styles because if he fights a Wing Chun guy he knows that the other guy is doing the same thing he is and it will only come down to who has the best Chi-Sao.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
" Real fights are always sloppy affairs. They seldom offer any display of formal martial training by either combatant. This seems to be true regardless of whether the fighters are black belts or have no training at all."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I will say here is that we can use our system in real fighting, many of us have and I have, with no doubt that my memory is quite intact. Sifu I think put it best when he said: “In a real fight your Kung-Fu gets a 50% discount.” But, we can still use our skills. A real Wing Chun fighter WILL jam kicks, stick to the legs, step on your foot, stick to the arms and enter, trap and hit, he does so because that's *all he trains* to do no doubt about it. If he is beaten he will be beat while doing so.

I thought, Van Sensei that you said the Uechi Masters could use the energy techniques on the inside… Can they not use these methods in combat?

I'd be interested in hearing your view-point on a system like Aikido, a brilliant system, but very hard to apply, wouldn't you say? And yet Segal issued a national challenge to any taker, and yet no one took him up on it....what can we infer from that?

Seriously, I have to infer based on what you assert regarding the degradation of technique under stress that any internal style, such as Tai Chi Chuan, Bagua Chang, Hsing Yee or Aikido that rely so heavily on very precise timing, body positioning and relaxation instead of external power e.g. brute strength, would be impossible to use for self defense...no??

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Most of the times it will always come down to the “man” behind the style, the simplest techniques and the determination to lay it on the line, as David points out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s why Wing Chun uses only simple techniques and theories and tells trains it's people to have no or less fear by teaching them early on to go forward and stick. Wing Chun attempts to simplify fighting and has 1 main punch, 2 main open hand techs and 1 main kick and about 8 hand traps… and a couple of leg traps of which only 2-4 are used often…that’s it done.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
Think of why this happens. It has nothing to do with the right “family” of style.. The right sensei etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I couldn’t disagree more here. The right teacher and school can make all the difference e.g. Bruce Lee, sorry but it wasn’t just the 18 year old’s natural ability and charisma that allowed him to convert ‘experts’ into students in the ‘50s


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
The UFC and NHB events have vaporized the imagined supremacy of traditional martial artist, no matter what their dojo skills.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not us, in fact I believe it’s made us stronger. I (we) now train to defend against take-downs as much as anything else.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Van Canna:
If a true wing chun or other style master really thought he had the right skills to prevail, he would have engaged those fighters long ago.

Think of the real reasons why they do not partake in the action.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a purely ethnocentric viewpoint. Why would a true master or Shaolin Monk want to go into the Octagon, assuming they would even let him in? To prove he is tough? A real Master would have nothing to prove. For the pure enjoyment of beating people's heads in? I should hope not. To win the prize money? Perhaps if he was desperate for the cash, but again, unlikely motivation for a real master, or Shaolin Monk. To impress his family and friends? Ridiculous. To prove that his school is the best? Perhaps, and we may yet see this happen. Look at the reasons I listed and then look at the people there, THAT'S why they are there. I mean you have to look at who is trianing, Most of the guys I trained with are family people who want to learn how to fight. Some of them are tiny meek guys that would NEVER enter such an event. As you know most of them don't last long anyway in any system. So out of the 100 students that may apply to a school in a year, very few will be around long enough to get good let alone great, and even less would be candidates for the UFC and still fewer would be interested in actually doing it...but the Century is young...

I am also not convinced that the ability for anyone to enter this event is open to anyone. If it really is open to anyone then so much the better because one day this myth will be squashed, hopefully by one of us.

Besides as I said before grappling is a sport and falls down in the street, with biting and with multiple attackers etc. I have no desire to fight in the subway on my back.

I said it before and I will say it again. If properly taught and trained traditional Martial Arts can be used AS INTENDED in combat. SF guys apply all different kinds of ‘techniques’ in hand to hand combat everyday on the battlefield. Old spec ops guys from World War II have related that the training and techniques they were taught were so good they had fear of no man, and these old timers DID use their stuff in hand to hand. It can be done.

I reassert that if the system anyone trains cannot be applied in combat then something is wrong with the training and if one feels this way then why train a system that cannot be applied in real combat, why not train wrestling, or boxing? Speaking for Wing Chun, we have, we do and we will use the system as intended in real combat and usually win.

Jim


[This message has been edited by Shaolin (edited February 16, 2002).]


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:07 am 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
Quote:
. Most martial arts schools that I have attended teach punches and kicks, tools, and then it is up to the student more or less to figure out what to do with these tools so it's little wonder the white belts fight the same as the black belts, as you said, in real fights -


so what is wrong with that? If the school encourages Ingenuity and Creativity, alot of positive things can happen. Personally, I prefer to perpetuate my own growth and development, rather then rely on external sources to do this for me. The advantage of this is that what I bring to the table, is almost certain to be a unique contribution to my style as opposed to the same old crap recirculating over and over again (e.g. belly twist and sword jump etc). Collectively, this same old stuff keeps everyone stuck in a tar pit and we all suffer in the grips of inertia.


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 Post subject: Tachypsychia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:23 pm 
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Jim,

I understand what you're saying about the "cockiness" and "elitism" and how that may contribute to performance. We had the same thing in the old "Mattson Academy" (Uechi-ryu) and took on any comers. In my young and arrogant days, I sparred (and fought with different folks from different styles. The better man on those particular days won. (shrug) But, this mindset, can be a double edge sword, as Van sensei pointed out. I know that well having seen folks I grew up with killed or disabled. I'm for cautioning folks that street confrontations these days will likely go beyond "empty hand" fighting. I work with community teens and I see it all the time. As for the cocky and skilled martial artists, enjoy your training. I know I do. But realize, it doesn't take much training for a 13 year old with a nine millimeter, as long as he has the mind to, to plug you dead. Coming back to the Chinatowns, the "fighting groups" know this and don't even rely on empty hand training. It's firepower and the will to use it. You talk about the cockiness of the SEALS. Absolutely. They're prepping and expecting combat. Ask them how many are spending their time with empty hand training vs. weapons and ordinances.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It should be noted that "Traditional Wing Chun" as referred to by followers of William Chung refers to William Chung's version of the system only. When I say Traditional Wing Chun I refer to most other varieties of the system as taught by my Late Sifu and others excluding William Chung's version, which is quite a bit different than everyone else's version.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I am aware of the splits. Honestly, that stuff makes my eyes cloud over like the discussions about the splits in Uechi, in Goju, in aikido, aikijutsu, JKD, and whatever. Everybody is the "rightful inheritor" of the throne. They can have it. My thinking is "leave me alone so I can train."

david


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